Jared Cowen

[Hossa18]

If we had kept Gonchar we would have been stupid. Gryba, Weircioch, Cowen all need playing time to develop. Whether people like it or not these guys need time to iron out the inconsistencies in their game. Playing a veteran ahead of them and making them watch from the pressbox might give us a marginally better chance to win games now (and I mean really marginal) but give us nothing going forward. The sooner these guys get the needed playing time under their belt the better going forward for the team.

Your missing the point of veteran leadership. Young guys need veterans to guide them into becoming better players. Guys are being put in a position to fail because they are given heavier minutes then they could handle therefore decreasing their confidence. Joe Thornton played fourth line centre in his rookie year so that he could develop properly. Gonchar is a future hall of famer and could have been valuable to all of the young guys.

 

[Hossa18]

We sure miss Gonchar and his 18 pts this season for 5 million

Not all about points......Dallas is also sitting in a wild card position as we speak. The reason they got Gonchar was to guide their young defenders.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

"Doing what Cowen is doing". Flubbing outlet passes, consistently icing the puck, not producing offensively despite getting heavy minutes with Karlsson, and not having a defensive GPS? Besides his size, which admittedly does help in certain situations, he offers little else, yet is rewarded with top minutes. There are plenty of other options.

Methot can do his job. He would, in fact, be an upgrade. Bottom two pairings can be shuffled, and we can promote a Boro or Claesson.
Cowen can be traded for top six forward help, and voila, we're a better team.

Fuhr brings up a good point. signing defensemen that make 1.5 will flub passes, and ice the puck, and not produce Minutes. this contract is well put together. looking at him, yeah he doesn't play all that great. but then take into account hes making 1.5, just under 150 games played, and is pretty used to playing against very very good competition, and HEY! we got ourselves a good looking prospect.
remember karlsson was atrocious his rookie season, and not all that great in his second. although he still hasn't learned how to play consistent proper defence really but still.

 

[BankStreetParade]

Your missing the point of veteran leadership. Young guys need veterans to guide them into becoming better players. Guys are being put in a position to fail because they are given heavier minutes then they could handle therefore decreasing their confidence. Joe Thornton played fourth line centre in his rookie year so that he could develop properly. Gonchar is a future hall of famer and could have been valuable to all of the young guys.

That's actually not true. Guys just aren't playing up to their ability and potential. Cowen, Karlsson and Weircioch are all playing roughly the same amount of minutes as they did last year. Weircioch is getting an extra 27 seconds per game this year, Cowen 38 seconds, Karlsson 8 seconds per game. Gryba is down 2:45 per game. Yet the way these guys are performing from last year to this year is almost night and day. Has nothing to do with veteran leadership. Has everything to do with execution and performance.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much stock is put in to leadership. Like it's a PED. "Take some leadership and watch your players' performance improve." It's a joke. Players need to look within themselves to become better. Players that can't be motivated without constantly being given "veteran leadership" need to GTFO.

 

[Hossa18]

That's actually not true. Guys just aren't playing up to their ability and potential. Cowen, Karlsson and Weircioch are all playing roughly the same amount of minutes as they did last year. Weircioch is getting an extra 27 seconds per game this year, Cowen 38 seconds, Karlsson 8 seconds per game. Gryba is down 2:45 per game. Yet the way these guys are performing from last year to this year is almost night and day. Has nothing to do with veteran leadership. Has everything to do with execution and performance.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much stock is put in to leadership. Like it's a PED. "Take some leadership and watch your players' performance improve." It's a joke. Players need to look within themselves to become better. Players that can't be motivated without constantly being given "veteran leadership" need to GTFO.

With that line of thinking, we should replace all of our veterans with players from bingo.

 

[Qward]

I agree but our owner wouldn't have paid that extra salary.

Just another reason why this internal budget crap screwed us.

 

[BankStreetParade]

With that line of thinking, we should replace all of our veterans with players from bingo.

I like players who play and produce. I don't give a **** if they've played 1 game or 1000. With the way guys like Phillips and Neil have played this year, why is fresh blood exactly bad?

Also, there needs to be a separation of on-ice and off-ice leadership. I put stock in to off-ice leadership: guys who take charge in the media, who give young guys tips on how to be pros, tips on summer training habits and in-season training to maintain optimal playing conditions, give young guys tips on the importance of rest and nutrition and tips on stuff they've seen in-game like situational reads, etc.

I don't put a lot of stock in to on-ice leadership. I don't equate poor performances with poor leadership anymore than I equate great performances with great leadership. Guys are paid to perform. Sometimes they get the job done and sometimes they don't. Speeches and yelling and pumping guys up is great but it doesn't actually translate in to results. Every football team gets jacked up before kick off, jumping up and down and screaming and slapping each other upside the head. But in the end, one team wins and one team loses. And it has nothing to do with the fact that one team pumped each other up better than the other team did. It has to do with execution. Playing your part on the team. Being accountable to yourself and your teammates for your performance.

 

[Qward]

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much stock is put in to leadership. Like it's a PED. "Take some leadership and watch your players' performance improve." It's a joke. Players need to look within themselves to become better. Players that can't be motivated without constantly being given "veteran leadership" need to GTFO.

Leadership is more than what goes on in the dressing room.

Watch two years ago when Cowen was playing with Gonchar. Watch how Gonchar would talk to Cowen after he made a mistake on the ice. He was teaching. Who does that for Cowen now? Karlsson? Please.

Gonchar calms the back end down.


There is a reason they have top prospect rookies live with vets. The vets do not go out and party every night. They live a professional life. That influence is huge on a kid.

The Coaching staff will never get the same level of respect that a vet does. The only way they do is if they were a player like Richardson.

 

[Spez]

Not having Gonchar is not why this team isn't in a playoff spot. The only thing nice about him is the leadership but he'd be getting ripped apart here if Murray signed him for 2 years at 5M each. I'd argue he'd be getting ripped apart more than Phillips currently is. He's the whipping boy over in Dallas and they aren't in a playoff spot because of him either. Has more to do with the fact that Benn/Seguin are ripping it up and they are getting more contributions from their forwards than we are. Even then the challenge is for Dallas to maintain a spot the rest of the way. They've done this same song and dance before only to fall apart when the pressure increases. Goligoski is taking some heat off of Gonchar but you can ask stars fans what they think of Gonch and they will tell you he's bad at the defensive side of the game which is where our team needs help the most.

I remember a few posters complaining when Murray chose to not re-sign Kuba saying he played well that year and that we'd miss his leadership. We did just fine without Kuba the following season. Cowen didn't play that great vs the rangers but he wasn't the worst d-man in that series. That honour went right to Kuba who undid all the good he did that season in one series.

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

Not having Gonchar is not why this team isn't in a playoff spot. The only thing nice about him is the leadership but he'd be getting ripped apart here if Murray signed him for 2 years at 5M each. I'd argue he'd be getting ripped apart more than Phillips currently is. He's the whipping boy over in Dallas and they aren't in a playoff spot because of him either. Has more to do with the fact that Benn/Seguin are ripping it up and they are getting more contributions from their forwards than we are. Even then the challenge is for Dallas to maintain a spot the rest of the way. They've done this same song and dance before only to fall apart when the pressure increases. Goligoski is taking some heat off of Gonchar but you can ask stars fans what they think of Gonch and they will tell you he's bad at the defensive side of the game which is where our team needs help the most.

I remember a few posters complaining when Murray chose to not re-sign Kuba saying he played well that year and that we'd miss his leadership. We did just fine without Kuba the following season. Cowen didn't play that great vs the rangers but he wasn't the worst d-man in that series. That honour went right to Kuba who undid all the good he did that season in one series.

It depends. If Gonchar was in the role of a 6-7 D like Phillips (should be), there wouldn't be a problem. If he was a first or second pairing, all hell would break loose.

But yes, we do need more competent vets on the blueline.

 

[Spez]

You don't pay 5 million for a d-man to play on your 3rd pairing. A d-man being paid 5 million has to be able to play on the top pairing at all times. Gonchar wasn't going to resign with us unless we were willing to pay him that much too.

 

[Hossa18]

Not having Gonchar is not why this team isn't in a playoff spot. The only thing nice about him is the leadership but he'd be getting ripped apart here if Murray signed him for 2 years at 5M each. I'd argue he'd be getting ripped apart more than Phillips currently is. He's the whipping boy over in Dallas and they aren't in a playoff spot because of him either. Has more to do with the fact that Benn/Seguin are ripping it up and they are getting more contributions from their forwards than we are. Even then the challenge is for Dallas to maintain a spot the rest of the way. They've done this same song and dance before only to fall apart when the pressure increases. Goligoski is taking some heat off of Gonchar but you can ask stars fans what they think of Gonch and they will tell you he's bad at the defensive side of the game which is where our team needs help the most.

I remember a few posters complaining when Murray chose to not re-sign Kuba saying he played well that year and that we'd miss his leadership. We did just fine without Kuba the following season. Cowen didn't play that great vs the rangers but he wasn't the worst d-man in that series. That honour went right to Kuba who undid all the good he did that season in one series.

The thing that amuses me most about this, is the fact that you mentioned Goligoski and the reason Dallas got Gonchar was to mentor Goligoski since he has had two bad back to back years with the Stars. Now he is having a really good year.......Coincedence? Maybe or Maybe not

 

[supsens]

I find it incredible that this modern-day hydrogen bomb is only a -2. What a stat, that plus/minus.

well how about this then
cowen has been on the ice for 44 even strength goals against
cant do no wrong Karsslon has been on the ice for 70 lol 70 wow
spezza for 59 in 54 games

So plus minus aside how is it that our star players and best players suck so bad, yet our sucky time bomb guy does a better job, yet around here no one can see that going on

 

[StefanW]

well how about this then
cowen has been on the ice for 44 even strength goals against
cant do no wrong Karsslon has been on the ice for 70 lol 70 wow
spezza for 59 in 54 games

So plus minus aside how is it that our star players and best players suck so bad, yet our sucky time bomb guy does a better job, yet around here no one can see that going on

Karlsson is on the ice for 30 minutes per game for starters. Plus minus us a bad stat, and even so it is less misleading than what you presented here.

 

[MtRundle]

well how about this then
cowen has been on the ice for 44 even strength goals against
cant do no wrong Karsslon has been on the ice for 70 lol 70 wow
spezza for 59 in 54 games

So plus minus aside how is it that our star players and best players suck so bad, yet our sucky time bomb guy does a better job, yet around here no one can see that going on

Im sure Crosby has been on for more goals against than Tanner Glass. Heck Tom Preissing led the league in plus minus one year (remember him? no?.... me either)

Watch Cowen play and you'll see he's a time bomb don't need any stats for that. Without Karlsson he's worse but plays against easier competition so its a lose-lose situation

But if you want stats look at anything other than plus minus and youll find that he is sucking this season.

 

[supsens]

Karlsson is on the ice for 30 minutes per game for starters. Plus minus us a bad stat, and even so it is less misleading than what you presented here.

17:55
21:19

Karlsson plays 3 minutes more per game at even strength for starters, I guess 3 minutes of icetime a game = over half a goal a game against.
or every extra four shifts he lets in one extra goal.
And of course I remember Preissing he did a great job for the sens and helped out in playoff run
32 give aways
176 hits
85 blocked shots
looks fine to me

Karlsson leads the nhl in give aways with 81 in case your keeping score. I am fairly sure he also leads the NHL in even strength goals against, but I am sure it is all on cowen
And karlsson was worse without cowen, not the other way around

 

[Hammertyme]

17:55
21:19

Karlsson plays 3 minutes more per game at even strength for starters, I guess 3 minutes of icetime a game = over half a goal a game against.
or every extra four shifts he lets in one extra goal.
And of course I remember Preissing he did a great job for the sens and helped out in playoff run
32 give aways
176 hits
85 blocked shots
looks fine to me

Karlsson leads the nhl in give aways with 81 in case your keeping score. I am fairly sure he also leads the NHL in even strength goals against, but I am sure it is all on cowen
And karlsson was worse without cowen, not the other way around

Are you saying Karlsson was worse with Methot?

 

[yoplait]

His decision-making and puck handling abilities frighten me to death. I do see the potential though, but for the moment, he is just really bad.

 

[MtRundle]

And karlsson was worse without cowen, not the other way around

Karlsson had slightly better possession numbers without Cowen than with him.

Cowen's numbers (at least until his last horrible game) were way worse without Karlsson than with him.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Karlsson had slightly better possession numbers without Cowen than with him.

Cowen's numbers (at least until his last horrible game) were way worse without Karlsson than with him.

Is this from your own observation or are there stats to show?

 

[Magix]

The legend/myth of gonchar grows....

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Karlsson leads the nhl in give aways with 81 in case your keeping score. I am fairly sure he also leads the NHL in even strength goals against, but I am sure it is all on cowen
And karlsson was worse without cowen, not the other way around

Karlsson had slightly better possession numbers without Cowen than with him.

Cowen's numbers (at least until his last horrible game) were way worse without Karlsson than with him.

Is this from your own observation or are there stats to show?

Karlsson plays best with Cowen but Cowen plays horrible without Karlsson. Karlsson basically IS our puck possession ability.

 

[Bileur]

Cowen was a top ten pick. He 'would have' been picked even higher save for injury troubles. There were expectations that he would make an impact in the NHL at a young age. While he had a solid rookie season, he was abysmal against the Rangers come playoff time, and has been bad since.

Chara was a middling pick. There were no real expectations. He was mediocre for quite a while. It was his relentless work ethic on and off the ice, and his accountability to his teammates that put him over the top, though.

Meanwhile, top ten pick Jared Cowen skips training camps like it's no big deal, despite missing plenty of time to serious injuries.

Other than the fact that one is big, and the other is the biggest, the parallels aren't there. I never questioned Chara's heart, even after that Buffalo series in 2006. Cowen hasn't shown me that he gives a single ****.

Cowen is not the problem.

Expecting a defensive defenseman to have a major impact as teenager is, no matter where he is picked. I can't believe people still fall into this trap. These young players, while they may have NHL size, do not have the experience or maturity required to consistently dominate in a defensive role. Bringing them up too early frequently seems to delay or completely stop development. Examples like Hedman have already been given. Bogosian would be another example, he has really developed lately but looked like a train wreck early on.

Think of Luke Schenn too, he had the size and strength to play well as a 19 yo in relatively sheltered minutes but the bombed and had his confidence destroyed against tougher competition, he looks like a complete dud now and it's too bad because he had some potential.

Defensive defensemen, and particularly these man-children who have massive growth spurts and are giants in junior take longer to develop. They have to get adjusted to their size and learn the skills and intelligence required to take their game to the top echelon at the next level. It's easier to get by in junior at 6'5 230, that advantage is negated by elite skating and strength in the NHL.

It is not time to give up on Cowen, or Wiercioch for that matter. Cowen will prove the doubters wrong.

I don't think many posters remember how much of a stiff Chara was with the NYI. Huge credit goes to him for the work he put in but being under the tutelage of guys like Jacques Martin also made a difference. Give it time.

 

[LuckyPierre]

Cowen is not the problem.

Expecting a defensive defenseman to have a major impact as teenager is, no matter where he is picked. I can't believe people still fall into this trap. These young players, while they may have NHL size, do not have the experience or maturity required to consistently dominate in a defensive role. Bringing them up too early frequently seems to delay or completely stop development. Examples like Hedman have already been given. Bogosian would be another example, he has really developed lately but looked like a train wreck early on.

Think of Luke Schenn too, he had the size and strength to play well as a 19 yo in relatively sheltered minutes but the bombed and had his confidence destroyed against tougher competition, he looks like a complete dud now and it's too bad because he had some potential.

Defensive defensemen, and particularly these man-children who have massive growth spurts and are giants in junior take longer to develop. They have to get adjusted to their size and learn the skills and intelligence required to take their game to the top echelon at the next level. It's easier to get by in junior at 6'5 230, that advantage is negated by elite skating and strength in the NHL.

It is not time to give up on Cowen, or Wiercioch for that matter. Cowen will prove the doubters wrong.

I don't think many posters remember how much of a stiff Chara was with the NYI. Huge credit goes to him for the work he put in but being under the tutelage of guys like Jacques Martin also made a difference. Give it time.

Yes, defensemen in general take longer to develop. Yes, it is even more punctuated with bigger defensemen.

But no, there is no guarantee that even if he is given plenty of time, he'll be a stud, in spite of the widely held belief across this fanbase that he's a lock to be elite eventually.

 

[Pierre from Orleans]

Yes, defensemen in general take longer to develop. Yes, it is even more punctuated with bigger defensemen.

But no, there is no guarantee that even if he is given plenty of time, he'll be a stud, in spite of the widely held belief across this fanbase that he's a lock to be elite eventually.

You acknowledge the fact that defensemen take longer to develop yet you are ready to throw Cowen under the bus after only playing 146 NHL games?