Jakub Voracek isn't putting much value in "secondary assists"

[Midnight Judges]

So let's use this example.

I'll use the Canucks in this case, a team I am not very fond of but respect these 2 players.

Say Daniel passes it to Henrik from behind the net and he directly passes it to an open Vrbata that Daniel couldn't get to directly but identifies his brother as the person that can piggy back that pass to an open Vrbata to the side of the net he can't reach because of a defender and it results in a goal.

Apparently, Daniel's assist is garbage because hey, it's further removed from the goal...apparently.

See how asinine it is to call a secondary assist being the assist furthest removed from the goal? Because it isn't.

No. No, I do not (ignoring the fact that your example is pretty much a best case scenario for secondary assists). Henrik made the play to get Vrbata a look. Daniel made a pass.

Or lets take it a step further. Say in your example Dan Hamhuis passed to Daniel because he couldn't directly pass to Henrik or Vrbata. Why doesn't Hamhuis get a tertiary assist, in your opinion?

 

[Midnight Judges]

And everyone has the same chance to accumulate them...

No they don't.

 

[ThirdManIn]

Jakub Voracek put up 6 points at the all star game which tied Mario Lemieux record. But according to NHL.com he didn't value it because he had 3 secondary assists: http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=750315&navid=nhl:topheads

Voracek commented on it by saying: "I think it's a little different, Voracek and Lemieux, right? I had three secondary assists, so I wouldn't get too excited about that."

That's kind of a interesting comment coming from a playmaking forward like Voracek who's the NHL scoring leader at the moment and basically leads the League because of those secondary assists.

Does this change your opinion on secondary assists? This is the first time I've ever heard anything negative about secondary assists from a guy who basically puts up a lot of secondary assists...

I don't get what his leading the league in scoring "basically... because of those secondary assists" has to do with his opinion of comments made about "Vorachek and Lemieux." The guy realizes that he is not on Mario's level, and provided the example of his three secondary assists. Who cares if he leads the league in scoring largely because of those assists? It's irrelevant to this story.

And no, it doesn't change my opinion of secondary assists. Sometimes the secondary assist is more important to the play than the primary assist. Sometimes a good keep in resulting in a couple of quick passes before a goal being scored doesn't even result in an assist, yet it was the most important part of the play. Secondary assists are points, and the quicker anyone who doesn't like them or uses them to diminish the season a player is having accepts that they are points, the better.

Another thing about your comment with regard to secondary assists and their role in Vorachek's league leading season right now: other players get them, too. Did you go to look at the league leaders in points after removing all secondary assists from everyone in the top ten or so to find out where Vorachek would land before saying that he "basically" is leading the league because of secondary assists?

 

[NHL Fanatik*]

No. No, I do not (ignoring the fact that your example is pretty much a best case scenario for secondary assists). Henrik made the play to get Vrbata a look. Daniel made a pass.

Or lets take it a step further. Say in your example Dan Hamhuis passed to Daniel because he couldn't directly pass to Henrik or Vrbata. Why doesn't Hamhuis get a tertiary assist, in your opinion?

He could, but at what point is there too many stats to keep track of?

Secondary assists have been around. You cant discredit them by stating the idea of a third assist, which doesn't exist (statistically).

 

[Tripod]

Let me throw out some stats from this year that everyone can chew on.

Leaders in Primary Assists
Getzlaf - 24
T Johnson - 22
Seguin - 19
Kane - 19
Malkin - 18
Voracek - 18
Giroux - 18
Backstrom - 18
Toews - 18
Pominville - 18
Crosby - 17
Zetterberg - 17

Leaders in Secondary Assists
Voracek - 21
Crosby - 19
Giordano - 18
Giroux - 17
Shattenkirk - 15
Spezza - 15
Malkin - 14
Carlson - 14
Okposo - 14
Backstrom - 14

Leaders in Goals + Primary Assists
Seguin - 47
Ovechkin - 42
Stamkos - 41
Kane - 41
Nash - 39
Getzlaf - 39
T Johnson - 39
Malkin - 37
Tarasenko - 36
Taveras - 35
Voracek - 35
Giroux - 33
Backstrom - 33
Crosby - 32
Toews - 32
Zetterberg - 31
Kessel - 31

It should be no surprise that the top guys in the last category are shooters. They shoot...and score...or often create a rebound....for someone lead to score.

But if the creative passers don't get the shooters the puck...they struggle.

Passers are often....not always...bug often the guys that control the play and have the puck on their sticks more. They dictate what happens.

 

[2ka RasK*]

I missed the secondary assist competition at the All-Star game.





It's absurd to think that a secondary has the same value as a primary or a goal on the average.


It is also absurd to think that a secondary could not be the most important part of a goal scored at times.



IMO, Separate the secondaries into a new category beside primaries and goals but continue to count them in the scoring totals.

 

[Regal]

No they don't.

I'd like to hear this reasoning

 

[Honour Over Glory]

No. No, I do not (ignoring the fact that your example is pretty much a best case scenario for secondary assists). Henrik made the play to get Vrbata a look. Daniel made a pass.

Or lets take it a step further. Say in your example Dan Hamhuis passed to Daniel because he couldn't directly pass to Henrik or Vrbata. Why doesn't Hamhuis get a tertiary assist, in your opinion?

You just don't get it.

Henrik doesn't give Vrbata that look if Daniel doesn't identify Henrik as the guy that can further the play.

Catalyst.

Another example.


Letang is starting the rush, he has Craig Adams, Beau Bennett, and Marcel Goc as the 3 guys he can pass the puck to, to further the play...who does he pick? Craig Adams? No, he goes to Beau Bennett because he knows that's the best chance of getting the puck to the other side to make stuff happen. In some cases, it's not like that, but if that player doesn't get the puck to the person that creates the pass that leads to a goal, that entire play doesn't happen no matter what.

Secondary assists are important because of that.

 

[JudgeandJury]

So let's use this example.

I'll use the Canucks in this case, a team I am not very fond of but respect these 2 players.

Say Daniel passes it to Henrik from behind the net and he directly passes it to an open Vrbata that Daniel couldn't get to directly but identifies his brother as the person that can piggy back that pass to an open Vrbata to the side of the net he can't reach because of a defender and it results in a goal.

Apparently, Daniel's assist is garbage because hey, it's further removed from the goal...apparently.

See how asinine it is to call a secondary assist being the assist furthest removed from the goal? Because it isn't.

Because 9 times out of 10, that pass from Daniel to Henrik either:

a) gets deflected away
b) results in a defenseman closing in on Henrik that prohibits the pass to Vrbata
c) results in a defenseman tying up Vrbata to prevent the pass from connecting
d) results in a pass that Vrbata misses
e) results in a pass to Vrbata that's tough to handle so Vrbata gets off a bad shot or its blocked or deflected
f) results in a pass to Vrbata that the goalie anticipates and makes a big save

Consider that over 90% of shots on goal fail to result in a goal
Over half of shot attempts fail to result in a shot on goal
Maybe 10% of passes directly result in a shot attempt

So we give equal value to a goal as to the pass that is two removed from a shot attempt?

Does that really make sense?

If it does, then why is the third pass removed valued at zero? Seems pretty arbitrary.

 

[andrjusha]

Primary-Secondary Ratios
Ovechkin - 15/1
Seguin - 19/5
Stamkos - 15/4
Nash - 11/4
Getzlaf - 24/11
T Johnson - 22/9
Kane - 19/10
Toews - 18/10
Pominville - 18/11
Taveras - 14/10
Zetterberg - 17/13
Malkin - 18/14
Backstrom - 18/14
Ribiero - 16/13
Okposo - 16/14
Tarasenko - 12/11
Carlson - 15/14
Shattenkirk - 16/15
Giroux - 18/17
Kessel - 12/13
Crosby - 17/19
Voracek - 18/21
Giordano - 11/18

Nice stats, where do you get them?
I could not find any way other than scraping individual players scoring logs off hockey-reference.com

For me it shows that point totals are no the best way to compare goal scorers with playmakers. Secondary assists are making points "bottom-heavy".
Some hockey stats sites give a half-weight to assists, e.g. see GC - Goals Created on hockey-reference.com. I would prefer giving Goals 1, Primary assists 2/3 and Secondary 1/3 weight, but it makes point counting arithmetic too complex for general population

 

[JudgeandJury]

It should be no surprise that the top guys in the last category are shooters. They shoot...and score...or often create a rebound....for someone lead to score.

But if the creative passers don't get the shooters the puck...they struggle.

Passers are often....not always...bug often the guys that control the play and have the puck on their sticks more. They dictate what happens.

All I can say is when there is a premier goal scorer teamed with a pure passer, like Hull with Oates, Ovechkin with Backstrom, Bure with Ronning, etc. the goal scorer is perceived as the more valuable player.

Why? Because shooting the puck well is still the most important skill in hockey.

 

[JudgeandJury]

Nice stats, where do you get them?
I could not find any way other than scraping individual players scoring logs off hockey-reference.com

Exactly.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Jakub Voracek put up 6 points at the all star game which tied Mario Lemieux record. But according to NHL.com he didn't value it because he had 3 secondary assists: http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=750315&navid=nhl:topheads

Voracek commented on it by saying: "I think it's a little different, Voracek and Lemieux, right? I had three secondary assists, so I wouldn't get too excited about that."

That's kind of a interesting comment coming from a playmaking forward like Voracek who's the NHL scoring leader at the moment and basically leads the League because of those secondary assists.

Does this change your opinion on secondary assists? This is the first time I've ever heard anything negative about secondary assists from a guy who basically puts up a lot of secondary assists...

When I am cruntching stats I give (for forwards) a SHG 3pts, PPG 2.5pts. Normal goal 2 pts. 1st assist 1pts and 2nd assists .5pts--I think people sometimes need to seperate the fact 1st and 2nd assists are not the same thing and often the second assist is up for debate on how the score keeping looks at the play

 

[412 Others]

And everyone has the same chance to accumulate them so who cares? The best players accumulate the most which is why they are a relevant stat.

didn't you hear? by simply playing the center position one gets a boatload of free assists. kind of like the points you get on an SAT exam just for signing your name. it's that easy.

 

[Jumptheshark]

for those who do not know--it was not till I think the 40's or 50's that 2nd assists were regularly handed out. (history of hockey board posters can correct me). For many decades a second assist was only handed out if the the player was directly involved in a play around the net.

Example given to me a few years ago.

Say team A is around the net the following play occurs

Center passes to Left winger who passes to Right winger who scores-- a goal and 2 assists awarded

Center passes to LW who passes to RW who passes to LW who scores--1` goal and 1 assist is awarded--C was not directly linked to the goal because of the passing between LW and RW

 

[JudgeandJury]

When I am cruntching stats I give (for forwards) a SHG 3pts, PPG 2.5pts. Normal goal 2 pts. 1st assist 1pts and 2nd assists .5pts--I think people sometimes need to seperate the fact 1st and 2nd assists are not the same thing and often the second assist is up for debate on how the score keeping looks at the play

My ideal way to determine a skater's value would be to combine something like that with the value of the goals scored based on win probability. While all goals count the same on the score sheet they are not all equal in value.

 

[rumrokh]

for those who do not know--it was not till I think the 40's or 50's that 2nd assists were regularly handed out. (history of hockey board posters can correct me). For many decades a second assist was only handed out if the the player was directly involved in a play around the net.

Example given to me a few years ago.

Say team A is around the net the following play occurs

Center passes to Left winger who passes to Right winger who scores-- a goal and 2 assists awarded

Center passes to LW who passes to RW who passes to LW who scores--1` goal and 1 assist is awarded--C was not directly linked to the goal because of the passing between LW and RW

That's still how it works right now. It's exactly the last three touches. If only two players had those last three touches, there won't be a secondary assist.

 

[Jumptheshark]

That's still how it works right now. It's exactly the last three touches. If only two players had those last three touches, there won't be a secondary assist.

actually more often then not--the second assist is added to the C

next time you see a 2 on 1 break where the two fw play give and go a few times and score--ifm they got the puck from their D man--the d-man more often then not gets the assist

 

[penguins2946*]

I don't know why people have such an issue with secondary assists. There are tons of examples where a secondary assist is the catalyst and biggest part of a goal, just as there are examples of a primary assist being more important than a goal (a pass back door to a wide open net). Getting rid of secondary assists or assigning different point totals to goals, primary assists and secondary assists just overcomplicates something that doesn't need fixed.

 

[rumrokh]

actually more often then not--the second assist is added to the C

I'm not saying you're wrong, because screwy scoring does happen from time to time and I haven't scoured scoresheets recently because I haven't been playing fantasy hockey. But I'd be very interested to see some video examples of this - especially if it's "more often than not," which would mean more than half the time.

 

[2ka RasK*]

There is a game winning goal category and an empty net goal category just for example.


Goals are scrutinized way harder than assists. How is that?

 

[Tripod]

When I am cruntching stats I give (for forwards) a SHG 3pts, PPG 2.5pts. Normal goal 2 pts. 1st assist 1pts and 2nd assists .5pts--I think people sometimes need to seperate the fact 1st and 2nd assists are not the same thing and often the second assist is up for debate on how the score keeping looks at the play

Oh..well if you do it when crunching stats then that changes everything.

I guess the NHL disagrees with you.

 

[NHL Fanatik*]

I personally like that the NHL, whenever they did, insisted on having secondary assists. It gives those behind the scenes guys some credit for a lot of the plays they make, and it adds the chance of goaltenders getting points.

I love secondary assists. They are no less deserving of a point then primary assists and goals.

 

[daver]

No they don't.

Why not?

 

[Regal]

When I am cruntching stats I give (for forwards) a SHG 3pts, PPG 2.5pts. Normal goal 2 pts. 1st assist 1pts and 2nd assists .5pts--I think people sometimes need to seperate the fact 1st and 2nd assists are not the same thing and often the second assist is up for debate on how the score keeping looks at the play

Curious as to why you'd value a powerplay goal over an even strength goal?