If there isn't much difference between the list of players with the most primary assists and the list of players with the most secondary assists, would you say the correlation is just as strong?
Jakub Voracek isn't putting much value in "secondary assists"
- Thread starter Mulletman
- Start date
If there isn't much difference between the list of players with the most primary assists and the list of players with the most secondary assists, would you say the correlation is just as strong?
Finlandia WOAT
No blocks, No slappers
- May 23, 2010
- 24,415
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I haven't done it, but if you took away secondary assists from everyone I really, really doubt that the top-10 assist list (originally points but revised b/c Voracek would probably fall due to lack of goals) would change that much.
Ragamuffin Gunner
Lost in the Flood
I'm pretty sure he coughed after he said that and the cough sounded a lot like the word "Crosby".
The Cheat
Habitual Linestepper
mja
Everything was beautiful, and nothing hurt
God, I hate this argument.
It's one thing when people argue the "phantom" secondary assist. I don't buy it but at least there's an arguable position - that some players are being gifted extra points to increase their totals. It's nonsensical, but whatever.
As for the secondary assists are worthless argument, if they were truly no big deal than everyone would have bunches of them. Everyone DOES NOT have bunches of them. In fact, the guys that usually have bunches of them also usually have bunches of primary assists. That's because their team scores more when they're on the ice, because they're elite players, because they make things happen on the ice that results in goals for their team. Sometimes they score the goal, sometimes they get the primary assist, sometimes the secondary, sometimes they might not get a point at all, but their team scores more because they're out there doing their thing.
It's one thing when people argue the "phantom" secondary assist. I don't buy it but at least there's an arguable position - that some players are being gifted extra points to increase their totals. It's nonsensical, but whatever.
As for the secondary assists are worthless argument, if they were truly no big deal than everyone would have bunches of them. Everyone DOES NOT have bunches of them. In fact, the guys that usually have bunches of them also usually have bunches of primary assists. That's because their team scores more when they're on the ice, because they're elite players, because they make things happen on the ice that results in goals for their team. Sometimes they score the goal, sometimes they get the primary assist, sometimes the secondary, sometimes they might not get a point at all, but their team scores more because they're out there doing their thing.
Classicnamesup
MVP Backhand Slapper
GAA doesn't tell you about a team's defensive play? Is this a joke? Do you people know how a GAA is calculated? Come on people
It looked like a trendline analysis on excel, so that's what I thought it was. I'll take your word for it. I agree with this 100% though. The only players you can predict with reliability are the top end players, but as evidence with players like Ovechkin and Malkin (who have sub PPG seasons then great seasons) that isn't even always true. Really, the only player I think you can accurately predict their point totals for is Crosby, just because he's so consistent in his production when he's healthy.
- Feb 10, 2010
- 14,377
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I personally love each of those stats, and to think people brush them off as useless is laughable. Not saying you do, but to try and ignore players with great numbers in these fields....you just can't.
- Feb 10, 2010
- 14,377
- 11,304
I don't see how a secondary assist is any less worthy than an assist or goal.
What explanation could there be as to why the top primary assist guys are the top secondary assist guys other than they are the most skilled playmakers?
Let me throw out some stats from this year that everyone can chew on.
Leaders in Primary Assists
Getzlaf - 24
T Johnson - 22
Seguin - 19
Kane - 19
Malkin - 18
Voracek - 18
Giroux - 18
Backstrom - 18
Toews - 18
Pominville - 18
Crosby - 17
Zetterberg - 17
Leaders in Secondary Assists
Voracek - 21
Crosby - 19
Giordano - 18
Giroux - 17
Shattenkirk - 15
Spezza - 15
Malkin - 14
Carlson - 14
Okposo - 14
Backstrom - 14
Leaders in Goals + Primary Assists
Seguin - 47
Ovechkin - 42
Stamkos - 41
Kane - 41
Nash - 39
Getzlaf - 39
T Johnson - 39
Malkin - 37
Tarasenko - 36
Taveras - 35
Voracek - 35
Giroux - 33
Backstrom - 33
Crosby - 32
Toews - 32
Zetterberg - 31
Kessel - 31
Leaders in Primary Assists
Getzlaf - 24
T Johnson - 22
Seguin - 19
Kane - 19
Malkin - 18
Voracek - 18
Giroux - 18
Backstrom - 18
Toews - 18
Pominville - 18
Crosby - 17
Zetterberg - 17
Leaders in Secondary Assists
Voracek - 21
Crosby - 19
Giordano - 18
Giroux - 17
Shattenkirk - 15
Spezza - 15
Malkin - 14
Carlson - 14
Okposo - 14
Backstrom - 14
Leaders in Goals + Primary Assists
Seguin - 47
Ovechkin - 42
Stamkos - 41
Kane - 41
Nash - 39
Getzlaf - 39
T Johnson - 39
Malkin - 37
Tarasenko - 36
Taveras - 35
Voracek - 35
Giroux - 33
Backstrom - 33
Crosby - 32
Toews - 32
Zetterberg - 31
Kessel - 31
- Feb 10, 2010
- 14,377
- 11,304
Because you can't pass to yourself in hockey.
BTW "...because it's absolutely stupid, just like your example" is more of an emotion than an argument.
- Feb 10, 2010
- 14,377
- 11,304
The secondary assist - on average - is less worthy because it is farther removed from the action that put a point on the scoreboard.
Barring a select few cases, without that secondary assist there could be no goal.
So yes, I am very serious.
Honour Over Glory
#firesully
- Jan 30, 2012
- 81,438
- 45,835
Secondary assists are a catalyst to a goal, how on earth can you say they are a useless stat?
+/- and GAA are different, they're not indicative of a player's play completely, it has some many varying factors that go along that make it a hard stat to judge a play by. You are just about to go off on a line change or come on and a team scores and you haven't even had a chance to contribute towards stopping it from happening and you get dinged. GAA...more of a team stat in some cases.
But secondary assist, if an outlet pass gets it to a player that takes it up further and he creates the next play that results in a goal, that entire play doesn't happen without the outlet pass in this scenario.
How any one can downplay that as useless is absurd to me.
Honour Over Glory
#firesully
- Jan 30, 2012
- 81,438
- 45,835
So let's use this example.
I'll use the Canucks in this case, a team I am not very fond of but respect these 2 players.
Say Daniel passes it to Henrik from behind the net and he directly passes it to an open Vrbata that Daniel couldn't get to directly but identifies his brother as the person that can piggy back that pass to an open Vrbata to the side of the net he can't reach because of a defender and it results in a goal.
Apparently, Daniel's assist is garbage because hey, it's further removed from the goal...apparently.
See how asinine it is to call a secondary assist being the assist furthest removed from the goal? Because it isn't.
So with that mindset is a linebacker in the NFL who makes the block for the runner to score the TD 'farther removed' because he never touched the ball?
Not an extreme example, but thats the jist im getting here. As stated before, without most secondary assists there is no goal.
And everyone has the same chance to accumulate them so who cares? The best players accumulate the most which is why they are a relevant stat.
Honour Over Glory
#firesully
- Jan 30, 2012
- 81,438
- 45,835
In an all-star game it's absolutely meaningless, but during the regular season and playoffs, you bet it matters, the secondary assists I mean and points in general. Can't put much or any weight into a glorified game of shinny where goalies are just messing about and players aren't hitting each other in a game where it's people trying to do fun stuff for high light goals.
Primary-Secondary Ratios
Ovechkin - 15/1
Seguin - 19/5
Stamkos - 15/4
Nash - 11/4
Getzlaf - 24/11
T Johnson - 22/9
Kane - 19/10
Toews - 18/10
Pominville - 18/11
Taveras - 14/10
Zetterberg - 17/13
Malkin - 18/14
Backstrom - 18/14
Ribiero - 16/13
Okposo - 16/14
Tarasenko - 12/11
Carlson - 15/14
Shattenkirk - 16/15
Giroux - 18/17
Kessel - 12/13
Crosby - 17/19
Voracek - 18/21
Giordano - 11/18
Ovechkin - 15/1
Seguin - 19/5
Stamkos - 15/4
Nash - 11/4
Getzlaf - 24/11
T Johnson - 22/9
Kane - 19/10
Toews - 18/10
Pominville - 18/11
Taveras - 14/10
Zetterberg - 17/13
Malkin - 18/14
Backstrom - 18/14
Ribiero - 16/13
Okposo - 16/14
Tarasenko - 12/11
Carlson - 15/14
Shattenkirk - 16/15
Giroux - 18/17
Kessel - 12/13
Crosby - 17/19
Voracek - 18/21
Giordano - 11/18
