Player Discussion Jake "Big Tuna" Virtanen | XVII Nikolaj Who...?

[Regal]

Virtanen strikes me as the type of player who will likely always be a little overrated in terms of corsi. Corsi is one of those stats that works decently in general, but there will always be players who buck the trend a little. Guys who are less creative and tend to take a lot of shots from everywhere are going to look better than they are and I question how much of an accurate determination of possession it really is for him if you had date for actual zone time. He does look like he's starting to take a bit more time to make a creative play with the Sedin's though which bodes well.

 

[F A N]

Virtanen strikes me as the type of player who will likely always be a little overrated in terms of corsi. Corsi is one of those stats that works decently in general, but there will always be players who buck the trend a little. Guys who are less creative and tend to take a lot of shots from everywhere are going to look better than they are and I question how much of an accurate determination of possession it really is for him if you had date for actual zone time. He does look like he's starting to take a bit more time to make a creative play with the Sedin's though which bodes well.

Did you watch him play? The game against Detroit is a perfect example of why he can be a strong possession player. He positioned himself well enough to create turnovers. He's not a lazy backchecker or a liability defensively.

In his rookie season, he was more on the cautious side. He hardly shot from everywhere. But he had good possession stats because he took care of the puck and was actually good defensively.

Possession stats are possession stats. Either you place value in it or you do not. There's no such thing as being "overrated in terms of Corsi" because the whole idea is that stats don't lie. If you don't believe his Corsi tells the whole story then you are discrediting the value of the stat rather than the player.

 

[Regal]

Did you watch him play? The game against Detroit is a perfect example of why he can be a strong possession player. He positioned himself well enough to create turnovers. He's not a lazy backchecker or a liability defensively.

In his rookie season, he was more on the cautious side. He hardly shot from everywhere. But he had good possession stats because he took care of the puck and was actually good defensively.

Possession stats are possession stats. Either you place value in it or you do not. There's no such thing as being "overrated in terms of Corsi" because the whole idea is that stats don't lie. If you don't believe his Corsi tells the whole story then you are discrediting the value of the stat rather than the player.

It was a good game for him. I don't think it's indicative of how he's always played despite putting up good possession stats. Part of his possession stats are due to his forechecking, and turnover creation, and taking care of the puck. But part of the reason he takes care of the puck is also that he isn't particularly creative and doesn't often try the type of plays that get turned over as often, and he tends to shoot when other options aren't available.

And yes, the problem is with corsi, but you're wrong that's it's all of nothing. Every stat has flaws and exceptions, and pointing them out doesn't mean the stat doesn't have value. The fact is that corsi isn't an actual possession stat, it's a stat that attempts to measure possession under the idea that in general shooting attempts align with possession. But while on average it does a decent job, it's not going to be the same for every player. By "Overrated in terms of corsi", I'm suggesting that the stats are inflated compared to his actual possession value, and I suspect that he's going to typically have a lower on-ice shooting percentage in his career because of it.

 

[F A N]

It was a good game for him. I don't think it's indicative of how he's always played despite putting up good possession stats. Part of his possession stats are due to his forechecking, and turnover creation, and taking care of the puck. But part of the reason he takes care of the puck is also that he isn't particularly creative and doesn't often try the type of plays that get turned over as often, and he tends to shoot when other options aren't available.

So you're faulting him for not trying the type of plays that get turned over often?

And yes, the problem is with corsi, but you're wrong that's it's all of nothing. Every stat has flaws and exceptions, and pointing them out doesn't mean the stat doesn't have value. The fact is that corsi isn't an actual possession stat, it's a stat that attempts to measure possession under the idea that in general shooting attempts align with possession. But while on average it does a decent job, it's not going to be the same for every player. By "Overrated in terms of corsi", I'm suggesting that the stats are inflated compared to his actual possession value, and I suspect that he's going to typically have a lower on-ice shooting percentage in his career because of it.

You are wrong. Never said the stat doesn't have value. I said you are discrediting the value of the stat which you are. That's not the equivalent of saying the stat doesn't have value. I actually agree that those stats don't tell the whole story. But again, stats are stats. That's the whole point. If there are stats to suggest that he benefited from playing with strong possession players that's a stat in of itself. But we're talking about Virtanen having a history of relatively strong possession numbers here. It's not like you're suggesting that his numbers are inflated due to his linemates. So by saying he is overrated in terms of his corsi you are discrediting the stat and not the player.

It's like the +/- stat. Zdeno Chara has consistently put up positive +/- numbers. That means when he is on the ice at even strength or shorthanded he is on for more goals scored than against. He's not "overrated in terms of +/-" unless you're suggesting his numbers are inflated due to who he is playing with. Other than that, it's the value you place on that stat that is in dispute.

 

[Regal]

So you're faulting him for not trying the type of plays that get turned over often?



You are wrong. Never said the stat doesn't have value. I said you are discrediting the value of the stat which you are. That's not the equivalent of saying the stat doesn't have value. I actually agree that those stats don't tell the whole story. But again, stats are stats. That's the whole point. If there are stats to suggest that he benefited from playing with strong possession players that's a stat in of itself. But we're talking about Virtanen having a history of relatively strong possession numbers here. It's not like you're suggesting that his numbers are inflated due to his linemates. So by saying he is overrated in terms of his corsi you are discrediting the stat and not the player.

It's like the +/- stat. Zdeno Chara has consistently put up positive +/- numbers. That means when he is on the ice at even strength or shorthanded he is on for more goals scored than against. He's not "overrated in terms of +/-" unless you're suggesting his numbers are inflated due to who he is playing with. Other than that, it's the value you place on that stat that is in dispute.

I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make here other than arguing over the semantics of the phrase "overrated in terms of corsi." I've already said the issue is with the stat itself and I've argued why I think it doesn't accurately reflect his value. The stat is the stat, sure. Jake has good corsi stats. I wasn't arguing he doesn't. But that's meaningless in itself. The question is what value to place in them. And saying it doesn't accurately reflect his value doesn't mean the stat doesn't for other players, so it's not discrediting the stat in itself. Everything has to be put in context. If a player playing next to an elite playmaker rides an unsustainable shooting percentage, his goal total might not accurate reflect his value. That doesn't mean goals is a poor stat in itself.

 

[F A N]

I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make here other than arguing over the semantics of the phrase "overrated in terms of corsi." I've already said the issue is with the stat itself and I've argued why I think it doesn't accurately reflect his value. The stat is the stat, sure. Jake has good corsi stats. I wasn't arguing he doesn't. But that's meaningless in itself. The question is what value to place in them. And saying it doesn't accurately reflect his value doesn't mean the stat doesn't for other players, so it's not discrediting the stat in itself. Everything has to be put in context. If a player playing next to an elite playmaker rides an unsustainable shooting percentage, his goal total might not accurate reflect his value. That doesn't mean goals is a poor stat in itself.

Words have meaning you know and you weren't making the argument that Virtanen's Corsi stats were inflated by those he played with. Are you now making that argument?

The point I was making is that the point being put forth (by others here) is that Virtanen (except for last season in the NHL) historically has put up good Corsi stats. By saying he is overrated in terms of corsi necessitates discrediting the stat IMO (which is fine), because a player who consistently puts up good Corsi numbers suggest what the stat is suppose to suggest. Again, the point being put forth is that supposedly, Virtanen has put up strong possession stats in the WHL, in the AHL, and except for last season in the NHL as well. This suggests that he has been able to put up strong possession numbers regardless of who he plays with. Again, by saying he is overrated in terms of corsi, you're really discrediting the stat and not the player.

 

[ChilliBilly]

On a simpler note, a number of us objected to writing Virtanen off too early. In particular, one person suggested we should trade him for a 4th or even a 5th if we could get it.

The fact is that is a tough road to haul, and some players take longer than other. Has he turned the corner, and is now a top prospect? No, he may still fail, but at least has done about as good this year as anyone could have asked.

 

[Diamonddog01]

Maybe I'm the only one but at this point I think it would do him a world of good to be sent down to Utica and play 20 min a night. He had one or two ok chances last night but I feel more and more he will need to refine his offensive game a bit if he has any hope of becoming a top 6 forward. Otherwise it'll be bottom 6 for life.

 

[CanaFan]

On a simpler note, a number of us objected to writing Virtanen off too early. In particular, one person suggested we should trade him for a 4th or even a 5th if we could get it.

The fact is that is a tough road to haul, and some players take longer than other. Has he turned the corner, and is now a top prospect? No, he may still fail, but at least has done about as good this year as anyone could have asked.

As good as we could have asked ... after last season. Def not as good as we could have asked 3 seasons ago.

And I think I’m against sending him down to Utica. I don’t think his game is going to change all that much now whether he gets 20 mins there or 12 mins here. At least here he is under Green who seems to push the right buttons with him and is around the Sedins who I think are ideal mentors for him in terms of getting him to play a more patient offensive game.

Keep him up and try to get the best out of him. I think the dreams of getting a 25-30 goal scorer are close to dead so let’s focus on developing him into a 15-20 goal + good-corsi guy.

 

[Breakers]

Are we back to the "Press Box" way of developing players?

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

You play him or you send him down ffs

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

Am I the only one that feel disgusted when Daniel said " it's been alot of fun playing with Loui"?
It sounds like he's happy to have someone who suits their slow playing style.
If that's the case then it really triggers me, because that sounds like their taking shots at Jake for being " too fast" for the.
Maybe I'm just being paranoid

 

[TeddyBare]

Are we back to the "Press Box" way of developing players?

The 2015 experiment with McCann and Virtanen of playing/working out/watching is actually back on the table.

 

[valkynax]

Am I the only one that feel disgusted when Daniel said " it's been alot of fun playing with Loui"?
It sounds like he's happy to have someone who suits their slow playing style.
If that's the case then it really triggers me, because that sounds like their taking shots at Jake for being " too fast" for the.
Maybe I'm just being paranoid

I think you might read a bit too much into what Daniel said, it just sounds like a typical political answer.

I don't know what's going on with JV. If Benning and Green already gave up on him then they've officially busted JV before me - I still maintain the tiniest of hope that he will become a useful player to some degree.

Then again, why do I still act as if I'm surprised at this management's lunacies.

 

[MS]

It takes a pretty special degree of stupidity and incompetence to make the same mistakes with the same player 3 years in a row.

This year might be the most frustrating because the player finally looked like he 'got it' and looks like he has something to contribute ... and gets buried in the pressbox and his confidence destroyed so that the team can make a futile run at a playoff spot with the likes of Gagner/Eriksson/Vanek in the lineup.

What a disgrace.

At least, as someone mentioned in the GDT, it's nice to see someone in the NHL actually acknowledge that their 'playoff push' is more important than Virtanen's development.

 

[valkynax]

It takes a pretty special degree of stupidity and incompetence to make the same mistakes with the same player 3 years in a row.

This year might be the most frustrating because the player finally looked like he 'got it' and looks like he has something to contribute ... and gets buried in the pressbox and his confidence destroyed so that the team can make a futile run at a playoff spot with the likes of Gagner/Eriksson/Vanek in the lineup.

What a disgrace.

At least, as someone mentioned in the GDT, it's nice to see someone in the NHL actually acknowledge that their 'playoff push' is more important than Virtanen's development.

To me this is just another instance of the management having no clue as to which direction they are going.

Does JV require waiver to be sent down?

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

To me this is just another instance of the management having no clue as to which direction they are going.

Does JV require waiver to be sent down?

I do t think so, he's still on his ELC

 

[MS]

To me this is just another instance of the management having no clue as to which direction they are going.

Does JV require waiver to be sent down?

He does not.

Honestly, in my lifetime of watching this sport, I've never seen any young player handled as badly by any organization as Virtanen has been handled by the Canucks. It's appalling.

From being benched in Utica in the spring of 2015 to being rushed to the NHL in 2015-16 to the bulking up debacle to being kept on the roster in 16-17 when he had no business being there to his complete confusion when interviewed about what the Willie coaching staff expected from him to now being benched in the NHL when he finally looked to be turning a corner, it's just been a three-year slow-motion trainwreck. And should be exibit 1A for how completely incompetent management has been in this organization.

 

[Breakers]

I personally thought the Sedins with Virtanen was MEH.......

Send him down to the AHL. Take advantage of the waiver situation while we can.

But i'm sure there is still a large contingent of canuck fans who claim "he has nothing to learn" in the AHL.
They also used that same argument for leaving Junior.

 

[Jay Cee]

It takes a pretty special degree of stupidity and incompetence to make the same mistakes with the same player 3 years in a row.

This year might be the most frustrating because the player finally looked like he 'got it' and looks like he has something to contribute ... and gets buried in the pressbox and his confidence destroyed so that the team can make a futile run at a playoff spot with the likes of Gagner/Eriksson/Vanek in the lineup.

What a disgrace.

At least, as someone mentioned in the GDT, it's nice to see someone in the NHL actually acknowledge that their 'playoff push' is more important than Virtanen's development.

They have really bungled the development of Virtanen as much as possible. He has really shown flashes of being a piece of the puzzle when creating a competitive, exciting team. Either he is good enough to play in the NHL or not quite yet. Don't let him fail out and get buried for the season in the AHL later.

 

[Cupless44]

Am I the only one that feel disgusted when Daniel said " it's been alot of fun playing with Loui"?
It sounds like he's happy to have someone who suits their slow playing style.
If that's the case then it really triggers me, because that sounds like their taking shots at Jake for being " too fast" for the.
Maybe I'm just being paranoid

I absolutely long for the days when the Sedins and Eriksson are gone...zzzzzzzzzz. Unfortunately we are saddled to the Clown and his buyout proof contract for 4 more years after this season. Worst contract in Canuck history. Never liked a Canuck less.,. and I have seen it all.

 

[Cupless44]

It takes a pretty special degree of stupidity and incompetence to make the same mistakes with the same player 3 years in a row.

This year might be the most frustrating because the player finally looked like he 'got it' and looks like he has something to contribute ... and gets buried in the pressbox and his confidence destroyed so that the team can make a futile run at a playoff spot with the likes of Gagner/Eriksson/Vanek in the lineup.

What a disgrace.

At least, as someone mentioned in the GDT, it's nice to see someone in the NHL actually acknowledge that their 'playoff push' is more important than Virtanen's development.

Could not agree more.

It feels like we are on a never ending cycle of mediocrity, incompetence and lack of vision.

After being subjected to poor hockey, 28th and 29th place finishes the ONLY thing worth following and watching was the future and seeing young players get opportunities. Watching these stale veterans almost make the playoffs offers nothing.

 

[Cupless44]

Virtanen showed flashes. I see him as a fast, powerful forward who can chip in 15-20 goals IF he is given a chance. Investing in developing this 21 year old 6th overall pick seemingly would mean something to a 29th place team over a cast off veteran.

 

[Melvin]

It takes a pretty special degree of stupidity and incompetence to make the same mistakes with the same player 3 years in a row.

This year might be the most frustrating because the player finally looked like he 'got it' and looks like he has something to contribute ... and gets buried in the pressbox and his confidence destroyed so that the team can make a futile run at a playoff spot with the likes of Gagner/Eriksson/Vanek in the lineup.

What a disgrace.

At least, as someone mentioned in the GDT, it's nice to see someone in the NHL actually acknowledge that their 'playoff push' is more important than Virtanen's development.

I absolutely hated the signings of Gagner and Vanek for exactly this reason.

At the time I remember reading that they provided "depth." For what? And now it is playing out exactly as I feared, with our young players buried in Utica and the pressbox so that Gagner can play an invisible 15 minutes.

 

[DL44]

Am I the only one that feel disgusted when Daniel said " it's been alot of fun playing with Loui"?
It sounds like he's happy to have someone who suits their slow playing style.
If that's the case then it really triggers me, because that sounds like their taking shots at Jake for being " too fast" for the.
Maybe I'm just being paranoid

I don't know if you noticed the "system" that is used when the Twins are with Virtanen in the ozone.
Virtanen parks in front of the net... and the twins end up skating around themselves trying to make something happen with the D.. Shot comes in, Virtanen scurries to the loose puck and keeps possession alive - back to a Sedin, then gets back into the front of the net.

Eriksson with the twins on the other hand.. i mean... it's pretty clear there is a difference in creativity and effectiveness.

The place for Virtanen in this lineup is along side Sutter and Dorsett... or Vanek centered by one of Gagner/Burmistrov/Granlund.

Virtanen's defensive ability would fit along side Sutter-Dorsett.. mins may be too high... but he could bang away and they would get their chances.