Player Discussion Jake "Big Tuna" Virtanen | XVII Nikolaj Who...?

[y2kcanucks]

You guys are funny..
Let me give you some perspective...

The kid was given 10 gms last yr DESPITE being rushed back from a shoulder injury... and despite his brutal conditioning...

Yet.. a yr later.. after a healthy and properly focused summer of training with an additional yr of experience/insight you think he'll get LESS of an opportunity?

Hmmm... guess we'll find out soon enough.

( I mean there is legit criticism/frustration.. but there is also outright, blind disdain for the kid too)

There's no disdain at all. He had an awful Draft +3 season.

 

[Shareefruck]

Ironically, the reason we think he'll get less of an opportunity despite being a bit better than last year is because we're hopeful and optimistic that this coaching/management staff is more competent this year and patient in developing him than they were last year now that they've **** the bed. He did not deserve to get those ten games last year given the way he played.

If they continue to be horrendous and stubborn to the detriment of Virtanen, then sure, he might get fifty games for all we know. I hope they aren't that dumb and allows him to properly get his game back on track in the lower levels, though.

 

[Tobi Wan Kenobi]

Both Virtanen and McCann made the team on merrit. Tell me what player got shafted because of them? Yeah it wasn't best for their development but you can't say they didn't make the team on merrit. There was ****ing nobody else. Absoultely terrible depth was assembled

 

[FroshaugFan2]

Zalewski or Kenins should have made the team over Virtanen. Or a waiver claim like Paul Byron. Or Biega or Corrado.

I agree about McCann though. His only competition as the 4th center was Linden Vey. Just awful depth.

 

[hellstick]

Both Virtanen and McCann made the team on merrit. Tell me what player got shafted because of them? Yeah it wasn't best for their development but you can't say they didn't make the team on merrit. There was ****ing nobody else. Absoultely terrible depth was assembled

McCann had an excellent pre season compared to Virtanen who was just ok. I thought McCann deserved to make that Canucks roster, but wanted Virtanen back in Calgary. There were developmental concerns with Virtanen in Calgary at the time, and looking back now, those concerns are absolutely foolish considering the circumstances.

 

[Shareefruck]

Each of the following forwards outplayed Virtanen during that pre-season, IMO:

Zalewski
Cracknell
Gaunce
Shinkaruk
Kenins (albeit disappointing relative to what we expected)

He was decidedly average, going through the motions throughout, with the exception of hitting McDavid that one time and sparking chemistry with Baertschi and Horvat that one game. He didn't make the team on merit. In fact, although they weren't competing for the same position, Subban had a better showing than he did too.

McCann was producing at a very impressive rate in pre-season and playing a very well rounded game at the time. We knew that his physical limitations put a question-mark on the whole thing, but it was impossible to deny him the shot, at least to start with.

 

[Hansen]

Both Virtanen and McCann made the team on merrit. Tell me what player got shafted because of them? Yeah it wasn't best for their development but you can't say they didn't make the team on merrit. There was ****ing nobody else. Absoultely terrible depth was assembled

McCann did, Virtanen did not. McCann should have been sent down when he cooled off after the incredible start too.

****ing awful year that utterly and entirely derailed the development of two top prospects

 

[vancityluongo]

You don't even have to dig hard on the fake news boards here to find that Jake did not make it on merit.

https://www.nucksmisconduct.com/201...gement-of-the-team-and-why-this-pre-season-is

In my opinion, the Canucks should kept Virtanen around for as long has he proves he’s not a defensive liability in his own end and can keep his composure and not take crass penalties like he’s done in the past.


The Canucks are in danger of being a dull hockey team if all goes south like many are projecting for the upcoming season.


Virtanen negates that theory to a lessor extent if he’s in the lineup, and you know Francesco Aquilini will be pushing to have Virtanen dressed to put rear ends back in the seats.


The way Virtanen plays would definitely make the Canucks a helluva lot more enjoyable to watch this season.


I suspect the team will rotate Virtanen in-and-out of the lineup until Higgins returns, then make another decision based off his report card. If the Canucks roll with Kenins, Baertschi and Virtanen, there will surely be some up-and-downs in one of the youngster’s games, which would create an opportunity for somebody else to rotate in.

Before the pre-season, McCann was likely heading back to the Greyhounds of the OHL for one final season to be the go-to guy.

Not so fast anymore.

The Canucks 24th-overall pick in the 2014 draft has been arguably the most impressive forward in the whole camp alongside Brendan Gaunce. McCann is on pace to push Linden Vey out of the fourth line spot and could conceivably play some regular season games before getting sent back to junior if his current production is merely a flash in the pan against non-NHL rosters.

http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/...+movement+with+final+cuts/11416186/story.html

Smiles were the order of the day Monday for Virtanen, Hutton and Jared McCann, the three rookies who have officially cracked the Canucks’ season-opening roster.

Throw in 20-year-old second-year centre Bo Horvat and winger Sven Baertschi, who turned 23 on Monday, and it’s safe to say the long-awaited youth movement has arrived for the Canucks.

“Our goal two years ago was to be younger and faster and integrate young players into an environment which is conducive to winning and this is an exciting thing,†president of hockey operations Trevor Linden told reporters.

Still, no one expected it to happen this fast.

“To be honest, we probably had Jake pencilled in, we felt Ben would probably need some time in the American league, it’s a big step for a defenceman, and Jared the same thing. But they deserve to be here and it’s exciting for us, I think it is exciting for everyone. If we didnÀ™t feel good about it, they wouldn’t be here.â€Â

 

[VanillaCoke]

Virtanen and merit is an oxymoron

 

[DL44]

Virtanen and merit is an oxymoron

Once.

 

[VanJack]

Thank God they got Virtanen away from Willie D.....under Travis Green, if he flops in training camp, they'll be nobody to blame.

 

[M2Beezy]

They should trade him now get something for him. Anything. Wait any longer and will get nada (nothing) for him so might as well get a mid-late round pick

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

You guys are funny..
Let me give you some perspective...

The kid was given 10 gms last yr DESPITE being rushed back from a shoulder injury... and despite his brutal conditioning...

Strange, you weren't concerned about his health back then. Now, when he unarguably is underwhelming do we start banging the injury drum to make excuses.

 

[Paulinvancouver]

They should trade him now get something for him. Anything. Wait any longer and will get nada (nothing) for him so might as well get a mid-late round pick

So a 4-6 round pick (avg 5th) for virtanen? I'm really glad you're not our gm. Stupidest possible thing we could do right now is move virtanen for a 5th.

 

[Wo Yorfat]

They should trade him now get something for him. Anything. Wait any longer and will get nada (nothing) for him so might as well get a mid-late round pick

Sounds like a horrendous idea. The 5 or 10 or 15% chance that Jake has at becoming a contributing NHLer is worth more than a late pick.

*By contributing I mean being a guy you're glad is on your team, not being a replacement level player which he has a much higher that 15% chance of.

 

[DL44]

Strange, you weren't concerned about his health back then. Now, when he's unarguably is underwhelming do we start banging the injury drum to make excuses.

You are lying.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

You are lying.

This is the first instance I can find of you talking about his shoulder being an issue in relation to being a pro:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=131235785&highlight=virtanen+shoulder#post131235785

This was 4 months ago. Y'know, after the season was over and Virtanen had a dog's breakfast of a season.

Prior to that, you only talked about his injury when he was with the Hitmen:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/search.php?searchid=50300567

But, you didn't seem to be too bothered by his injury, as you were going on about how 'physically ready' he was in training camp:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showt...light=virtanen+physically+ready#post107539747

For someone as high on this kid as you seem to be, I'd imagine you'd be a lot more concerned about his being 'rushed' back from his shoulder injury. Or the fact that he has had a nagging shoulder injury follow him over the course of ~2 seasons.

It looks to me like you're making up a story after the fact and are only doing so because he had such a lackluster season. "Well, gosh, he was RUSHED BACK from his injury guys, clearly that's why he underperformed so poorly."

I mean, you've only started spouting this nonsense in the past 4 months. Yet you're very quick to accuse others of revisionist history.

Meanwhile, you're trying to smear folks who are actually being critical of him as being full of 'disdain' for him. It's ridiculous because you're trying to just idly dismiss valid criticism because people 'hate' Virtanen.

Find one person on here who wants Virtanen to fail and who also cheers for the Canucks. Provide quotes, like I have.

I don't want Virtanen to fail, but it is hard to ignore his body of work to date and not come to the conclusion that he is, at the very, very least being underwhelming.

In hindsight, this post is hilarious:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=102731891&highlight=virtanen+rushed#post102731891

Strangely, going back, there are people arguing with you that he potentially may be getting rushed and isn't ready for the big leagues. Weird how their stance has been more or less consistent...

 

[sting101]

McCann did, Virtanen did not. McCann should have been sent down when he cooled off after the incredible start too.

****ing awful year that utterly and entirely derailed the development of two top prospects

Agree with the bolded. Not so much the 2nd part.

Jared McCann absolutely deserved a spot on the team. His camp was incredible and in hindsight they should have dispatched him to SS Marie around or after X-Mas. Sutter being out for the season opened a spot and keeping in mind the team was still intent on making the playoffs and was in a position to do so had few options. Linden Vey was going through some tremendous struggles as well that season personally and professionally. For sure the treatment was a mistake and the team goals oversaw the prospects. Sounds like Jared's attitude went along way to souring the situation as well as he became more isolated from some of the veterans. This is not excusing the mistake but with the results of Horvat in the teams heads they mistakenly opted to keep him around.

What McCann did last year has no bearing on the Canucks (gave him a spot on trade merits) ...Florida just did the Virtanen thing which is their fault not ours and he struggled again....Had FLA put him where he should have been instead of bouncing around then the strong finish he had in the AHL would have boded well for his development. I'm still convinced with the right work ethic McCann is going to be a helluva player and i bet by X-mas this year we will wish he was still a Canuck.

Jake Virtanen as you said did not win a spot at camp. A few flashes of potential (Edmonton game) and his size speed and physical package had the team thinking they could bring him along at the NHL level and have him flourish by seasons end. Playing with Sutter and Burrows early on they looked like they had some pretty good makings. Should have pulled the pin by late November but they did the right thing by X-mas and sent him to WJC and it was there that thing's started to go a little awry for Jake. He actually came back and looked pretty good at times...his speed and defensive presence had him as a positive play driver but he just continued with positional and play read issues and it was obvious he was going to be a bit of a slow learner. I don't remember going into that summer thinking it was a complete disaster with Jake but obviously it could have been better and i think as 2016 camp came like most i expected improvement a renewed focus and presence.

What happened that summer is where i have the problem. Jake was not even remotely close to being in the kind of athletic conditioning to compete by camp (which is not the team fault) and then you add in another set back on his shoulder and we had a player in complete disarray. A rogue assassin with a devastating ability to hit and shoot had his wings clipped and the thing he was left with....elite speed is a trait harnessed by many at the pro level.

So while it's apparent the team ****ed up with a couple decisions for a season it wasn't all terrible in 2015/16......this last year was way worse. That is on Florida in the case of McCann and mostly Jake's lack of preparation and injury in Vancouver

For Virtanen it's pretty simple.

1. Come to camp prepared....conditioning needs to be good enough for 15 minutes a night of all out shifts. NHL level intensity. Almost as important if not more...he needs a clear understanding of his role and how to be successful doing it and the mentorship and coaching to get him there. Jake just strikes me as the guy that they have to stroke and massage and even know that's not ideal it's just the way that the team will maximise what he can bring. Without a doubt having Willie out of the picture should help Jake. Whether it's Travis or Utica....i see the current groups as the types who will invest a little more time into Jake the project which is a good thing. We'll see

2. Stay healthy......needs to gain back his traits that made him a package worthy of a top 10 pick. Shot and hitting/forechecking. A sustained stretch without another shoulder issue is massive. I can't express enough how many young players and even established NHLers careers have been derailed by injury and make no joke....Jake's is concerning.

 

[AwesomeInTheory]

Linden Vey was going through some tremendous struggles as well that season personally and professionally.

He was also going through those struggles before that season.

 

[Tobi Wan Kenobi]

McCann did, Virtanen did not. McCann should have been sent down when he cooled off after the incredible start too.

****ing awful year that utterly and entirely derailed the development of two top prospects

Okay so what player should have been on the team instead of Virtanen that year? We're not talking what was best for Jake development but what player should have been on it? Otherwise yeah he made it on merit. It's not that hard to figure out ffs

 

[Hansen]

Okay so what player should have been on the team instead of Virtanen that year? We're not talking what was best for Jake development but what player should have been on it? Otherwise yeah he made it on merit. It's not that hard to figure out ffs

Maybe Shawn Matthias or Zack Kassian instead of giving away those assets for nothing. Even Mike Santorelli was someone who was traded by Toronto at the deadline for a return alongside Matthias, even though we let him go a year earlier. Benning assembled the team with Virtanen pencilled in from the moment the 14-15 season ended. It's not hard to figure out ffs.

Christ even Ass Crack(nell) could have played more games. That season was meaningless.

 

[Get North]

Maybe Shawn Matthias or Zack Kassian instead of giving away those assets for nothing. Even Mike Santorelli was someone who was traded by Toronto at the deadline for a return alongside Matthias, even though we let him go a year earlier. Benning assembled the team with Virtanen pencilled in from the moment the 14-15 season ended. It's not hard to figure out ffs.

Christ even Ass Crack(nell) could have played more games. That season was meaningless.

He's talking about the beginning of the 2015-16 season. Who should have taken Virtanen's spot in the line-up based on merit? The depth was poor and really Virtanen had to outplay Adam Cracknell who is an AHL journeyman.

 

[geebaan]

This is the first instance I can find of you talking about his shoulder being an issue in relation to being a pro:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=131235785&highlight=virtanen+shoulder#post131235785

This was 4 months ago. Y'know, after the season was over and Virtanen had a dog's breakfast of a season.

Prior to that, you only talked about his injury when he was with the Hitmen:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/search.php?searchid=50300567

But, you didn't seem to be too bothered by his injury, as you were going on about how 'physically ready' he was in training camp:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showt...light=virtanen+physically+ready#post107539747

For someone as high on this kid as you seem to be, I'd imagine you'd be a lot more concerned about his being 'rushed' back from his shoulder injury. Or the fact that he has had a nagging shoulder injury follow him over the course of ~2 seasons.

It looks to me like you're making up a story after the fact and are only doing so because he had such a lackluster season. "Well, gosh, he was RUSHED BACK from his injury guys, clearly that's why he underperformed so poorly."

I mean, you've only started spouting this nonsense in the past 4 months. Yet you're very quick to accuse others of revisionist history.

Meanwhile, you're trying to smear folks who are actually being critical of him as being full of 'disdain' for him. It's ridiculous because you're trying to just idly dismiss valid criticism because people 'hate' Virtanen.

Find one person on here who wants Virtanen to fail and who also cheers for the Canucks. Provide quotes, like I have.

I don't want Virtanen to fail, but it is hard to ignore his body of work to date and not come to the conclusion that he is, at the very, very least being underwhelming.

In hindsight, this post is hilarious:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=102731891&highlight=virtanen+rushed#post102731891

Strangely, going back, there are people arguing with you that he potentially may be getting rushed and isn't ready for the big leagues. Weird how their stance has been more or less consistent...

Hey! Look how much you weren't lying.

 

[DustyMartellaughs]

And you continue to lie.

How exactly is he lying? Those are YOUR WORDS.

 

[Shareefruck]

He's talking about the beginning of the 2015-16 season. Who should have taken Virtanen's spot in the line-up based on merit? The depth was poor and really Virtanen had to outplay Adam Cracknell who is an AHL journeyman.

Each of the following forwards outplayed Virtanen during that pre-season, IMO:

Zalewski
Cracknell
Gaunce
Shinkaruk
Kenins (albeit disappointing relative to what we expected)

He was decidedly average, going through the motions throughout, with the exception of hitting McDavid that one time and sparking chemistry with Baertschi and Horvat that one game. He didn't make the team on merit. In fact, although they weren't competing for the same position, Subban had a better showing than he did too.

McCann was producing at a very impressive rate in pre-season and playing a very well rounded game at the time. We knew that his physical limitations put a question-mark on the whole thing, but it was impossible to deny him the shot, at least to start with.

Any of these guys would have made more sense at the time, IMO. Virtanen was not even the best of a poor bunch. He just looked like he wasn't ready, whereas a few guys looked like possible bubble guys/utility players.

I don't see what Cracknell being an AHL journeyman has to do with anything. He still outplayed him by a wide margin.