Jacob Trouba

[scelaton]

I haven't seen regression or stagnation of Bogo and Kane under Noel's coaching thumb, and Burmi hasn't been "ruined" in the sense of the word. The point of that post, I think, was to illustrate that Noel was the HC for the farm teams that Weber and Suter played for, and they both turned into fantastic defensemen. So, the only outlier here would be Burmi, but we don't really know what went on behind the scenes.

You've mentioned a bunch of players in one short paragraph, so let me take a shot at relating them to Trouba, Noel and the AHL:

Bogo and Kane-Kane is one of those rare players who made a seamless transition to the NHL. Bogo's first 2 seasons were rough and a I believe he would have benefited from time in the AHL, like the vast majority of NHL defencemen. There is no question both have thrived as members of Noel/Huddy's Jets.

Weber and Suter-The point is not just that they played under Noel, but that they were allowed to develop in the AHL. It's an integral part of the development of some of the very best NHL defencemen. Why should Trouba be different?

Burmi-We have railed against the Thrashers for rushing the kid to the NHL and yet some have insisted on pushing our most prized posessions--Sheif and Trouba--into the league at the earliest possible moment. When are we going to learn that just because they could play as a 19 year old, it does not mean they should.

Noel-I just can't believe that a guy who has built his career coaching young prospects could be be blamed for the Burmistrov fiasco and for being too tough on Scheifele. Burmi was mishandled from the start as a #8 overall by being rushed into the league, and his clashes with Noel were just late-stage symptoms of a very complicated situation. Scheif, OTOH, has been handled impeccably by the Jets organization, who learned their lessons well, and the results will show this season or next.
Which path would you rather choose for Trouba?

 

[KingBogo]

I always find it interesting when people argue one way or another when a particular player should be kept at a lower level to develop or should be in the NHL like there is a right or wrong way. IMO a lot of factors enter into the situation (roster makeup, physical maturity, contract situation etc.) and a lot of the same players would have developed along the same lines irrespective of when they entered the NHL.

Off the top of my end I looked up a dozen top young d-man (list is not meant to be exclusive) and looked at when they became primarily an NHLer.

Out of:
Karlsson
Bogo
Doughty
Piet
Hamilton
Fowler
Myers
l. Schenn
OEL
PK Subban
McDonagh
A. Larson

5 become regulars in the 1st year after being drafted, 4 in the 2nd, 1 in the 3rd and 2 in the 4th. IMO Trouba will become a Jet this year if he makes the top 6 d-man, not because of any theory of the proper length of time necessary to develop at a lower level.

 

[Howard Chuck]

I'm not against Trouba starting the year out in the AHL if he can't beat out Redmond and Postma. But I think that's highly unlikely. The guy is being heralded as a potential franchise defenseman. At the end of the day, Redmond and Postma are in the JAG category, and Trouba isn't.

My feeling is that Trouba is already a better player than either of them. He just hasn't had the chance to prove it yet.

Based on his performances in the past year and the fact that he gets invitations to high level events, I'd agree with this.

 

[Winnipeg Jets]

I'd probably start him out in the AHL barring a very impressive training camp. It'll be interesting to see how Scheif and Trouba do this year, if they can make it and contribute at a meaningful level we might have a playoff team in the making.

 

[winterpeg]

It's easy to make sense of. He had to be demonstrably better than most of our other centers. Including young, talented former #12 pick Bryan Little. And young, talented, former #8 pick Burmistrov. And veteran, 50-60 pt man, #10 overall pick Antropov. And Wellwood. And Slater.

He either has to be demonstrably better, or his upside has to be perceived to be so high (like a generational talent, or a top 3 pick) in order to supplant them on the upper lines. He wasn't, and he isn't. Unless we somehow lucked out, and every other GM overlooked Scheifele, and he should have been a top 2 guy or something?

We are a little too high on Scheifele, IMHO...automatically assuming that he'll be better than the players we already ice. There is a distinct possibility that he may never even reach the levels that Little or Antropov already have. That is, 50-60 pts.

I'm not saying he was better than any of them. I'm saying that playing on the 4th line, we can't know if he was. That is the decision I don't agree with. If he only ever plays where Slater does, that's the only person you can reasonably compare him to. What could he have done with Kane? (which is the place we hope, in the long term, he will end up?) We will never know because other than a few minutes he didn't get that opportunity.

I absolutely agree that I, nor anybody else, can definitively say "Schiefele should have made the team last year", my problem with Noel's decisionmaking on the matter, is I don't think he was looked at in a position relevant enough to his actual skills to say 100% that he shouldn't have made it either. (The extra year of Junior may have helped him anyway, though it also may not have. Who knows)

This year I DO expect Schiefele to make the team, but if they want him to be a better 2nd line center than anyone else on the team, (not counting Little, who is obviously 1C) he needs the opportunity to try and do it from the second line, not the fourth. If Mark has to look as good with Wright and Tangradi as Jokinen looks with Kane and Setoguci (on the assumption Olli has a bit of a bounceback year) then that's going to be pretty hard, because we've already seen Kane's line is a threat when it's only Kane, and so he drags all his linemates up, and Seto is no slouch either.

I'm worried Mark wont get a chance to play with those guys, and Joker will, and it'll cost him, and possibly the team. Granted with Burmistrov and Antropov gone its easy to pencil in Mark at 3c from the start, but I'm still not comfortable that it will happen.

Whether he deserves to stay on the 2nd or even 3rd line, I cannot say. But he needs to play a few games at second line, not just 20 minutes, before we can say either way.

Edit\

Trouba on the other hand, since it's HIS thread, is a guy who I think could really break down the door, based on what we've seen so far, and take a spot amongst our D as early as opening night.

 

[irunthepeg]

You've mentioned a bunch of players in one short paragraph, so let me take a shot at relating them to Trouba, Noel and the AHL:

Bogo and Kane-Kane is one of those rare players who made a seamless transition to the NHL. Bogo's first 2 seasons were rough and a I believe he would have benefited from time in the AHL, like the vast majority of NHL defencemen. There is no question both have thrived as members of Noel/Huddy's Jets.

Weber and Suter-The point is not just that they played under Noel, but that they were allowed to develop in the AHL. It's an integral part of the development of some of the very best NHL defencemen. Why should Trouba be different?

Burmi-We have railed against the Thrashers for rushing the kid to the NHL and yet some have insisted on pushing our most prized posessions--Sheif and Trouba--into the league at the earliest possible moment. When are we going to learn that just because they could play as a 19 year old, it does not mean they should.

Noel-I just can't believe that a guy who has built his career coaching young prospects could be be blamed for the Burmistrov fiasco and for being too tough on Scheifele. Burmi was mishandled from the start as a #8 overall by being rushed into the league, and his clashes with Noel were just late-stage symptoms of a very complicated situation. Scheif, OTOH, has been handled impeccably by the Jets organization, who learned their lessons well, and the results will show this season or next.
Which path would you rather choose for Trouba?

This is extremely well put. Personally, I'm usually a "send them for seasoning" type of guy but in the last few months, something has gotten giddy in me for the thought of Scheifele being able to step into the #2C role and for Trouba to crack the top 6. If it comes down to it, I'm more than okay with both of those guys getting sent down. Do what's best for their development as players if they're not ready yet, not what the "fans" want because they think they're GMs.

If it turns out both guys can step right in, great. If not, don't rush em!

 

[scelaton]

I absolutely agree that I, nor anybody else, can definitively say "Schiefele should have made the team last year", my problem with Noel's decisionmaking on the matter, is I don't think he was looked at in a position relevant enough to his actual skills to say 100% that he shouldn't have made it either. (The extra year of Junior may have helped him anyway, though it also may not have. Who knows)
This year I DO expect Schiefele to make the team, but if they want him to be a better 2nd line center than anyone else on the team, (not counting Little, who is obviously 1C) he needs the opportunity to try and do it from the second line, not the fourth.
I'm worried Mark wont get a chance to play with those guys, and Joker will, and it'll cost him, and possibly the team. Granted with Burmistrov and Antropov gone its easy to pencil in Mark at 3c from the start, but I'm still not comfortable that it will happen.

I wouldn't worry about that too much. I do not think it was ever in the cards to keep Scheif here last year, unless he absolutely 'broke down the doors'. The plan was to let him ....well, to let him do exactly what he has done in the past year. He is now ready for prime time and I can't see him pencilled in below 3C to start the season, with a clear view of 2C.
BTW, these decisions (re overall management of Scheif) are organizational, not just the decisions of a rogue head coach.

Trouba on the other hand, since it's HIS thread, is a guy who I think could really break down the door, based on what we've seen so far, and take a spot amongst our D as early as opening night.

I am sure Trouba will start the season with us, but I suspect he'll have a clear view of the beautiful St Johns harbour before too long. See below.

This is extremely well put. Personally, I'm usually a "send them for seasoning" type of guy but in the last few months, something has gotten giddy in me for the thought of Scheifele being able to step into the #2C role and for Trouba to crack the top 6. If it comes down to it, I'm more than okay with both of those guys getting sent down. Do what's best for their development as players if they're not ready yet, not what the "fans" want because they think they're GMs.
If it turns out both guys can step right in, great. If not, don't rush em!

Thanks.
Don't think for a minute I'm not giddy about it too... I just hide it better...or maybe I've read to many of Sip's posts.
I actually think Scheifele will be in the 2C role by year's end and my secret hope is that he outscores Couturier this year! Something Hawerchuk said years ago, after Sheif's first season in Barrie, has resonated with me and I have repeated it a few times since: You have to dominate at a lower level to expect to really succeed at a higher one. It took Scheifele until the last half of last season to do that and now he is ready. (By contrast, Burmi never dominated either in Juniors or in his brief AHL stint.)
As for Trouba, he certainly has stood out from his peers, but I fear he may have learned a pattern of offensive play in Michigan that will burn him in the NHL. He may just need a bit more seasoning before he is ready. If that is true, and he is sent down after 10 games, we will know exactly when he is ready to come back--when, like Scheif in the OHL and unlike Burmi in the AHL, he dominates his peers. It shouldn't take too long.

 

[buggs]

I wouldn't worry about that too much. I do not think it was ever in the cards to keep Scheif here last year, unless he absolutely 'broke down the doors'. The plan was to let him ....well, to let him do exactly what he has done in the past year. He is now ready for prime time and I can't see him pencilled in below 3C to start the season, with a clear view of 2C.
BTW, these decisions (re overall management of Scheif) are organizational, not just the decisions of a rogue head coach.

Agree - I'm not sure that Noel has all that much of a say in what happens between staying up or going down. I'm sure he recommends and is part of the discussion and his word is respected by management but final say? Probably not.

I kind of worried a bit about Scheifele being sent down just so his ELC didn't start counting but I don't think management is really geared that way. Mark needed the time and I think you can debate whether it should have been with Barrie or in the A but I think he benefited more from the playing time at the lower level instead of being given 3rd/4th line duties and ten minutes a game at the higher level.

With Trouba I expect the decision process will be nearly identical. If he knocks the door down then no question he stays. If it looks like he can use some further seasoning in the A then that's what he'll get. I think the team's expectation is that he'll spend a good chunk of the season up here but perhaps not all of it. I suspect that was communicated to Trouba and that convinced him to leave Michigan after only a single year.

The difference though between Trouba and Scheifele, IMO, is that Trouba is closer to being ready this year than Scheifele was last year. Mark was a bit of a project and I think Morrissey fits that same mold but Trouba is just further ahead at a similar age (maturity, strength, skill - and that's no knock on either Scheifele or Morrissey). I expect all three will ultimately contribute successfully to the franchise, their ETAs will just end up being dissimilar.

 

[Huffer]

Agree - I'm not sure that Noel has all that much of a say in what happens between staying up or going down. I'm sure he recommends and is part of the discussion and his word is respected by management but final say? Probably not.

I kind of worried a bit about Scheifele being sent down just so his ELC didn't start counting but I don't think management is really geared that way. Mark needed the time and I think you can debate whether it should have been with Barrie or in the A but I think he benefited more from the playing time at the lower level instead of being given 3rd/4th line duties and ten minutes a game at the higher level.

With Trouba I expect the decision process will be nearly identical. If he knocks the door down then no question he stays. If it looks like he can use some further seasoning in the A then that's what he'll get. I think the team's expectation is that he'll spend a good chunk of the season up here but perhaps not all of it. I suspect that was communicated to Trouba and that convinced him to leave Michigan after only a single year.

The difference though between Trouba and Scheifele, IMO, is that Trouba is closer to being ready this year than Scheifele was last year. Mark was a bit of a project and I think Morrissey fits that same mold but Trouba is just further ahead at a similar age (maturity, strength, skill - and that's no knock on either Scheifele or Morrissey). I expect all three will ultimately contribute successfully to the franchise, their ETAs will just end up being dissimilar.

Scheifele couldn't go to the AHL last year. He could only play in the AHL once his junior season was over. Trouba can go to the AHL this year because he didn't get drafted out of the CHL.

I agree with your other points though.

I don't mind where either of these guys ends up this year (AHL or NHL), I just want them to be where their play dictates they should be, and not for any other reason.

 

[wpgsilver]

Agree - I'm not sure that Noel has all that much of a say in what happens between staying up or going down. I'm sure he recommends and is part of the discussion and his word is respected by management but final say? Probably not.

I kind of worried a bit about Scheifele being sent down just so his ELC didn't start counting but I don't think management is really geared that way. Mark needed the time and I think you can debate whether it should have been with Barrie or in the A but I think he benefited more from the playing time at the lower level instead of being given 3rd/4th line duties and ten minutes a game at the higher level.

With Trouba I expect the decision process will be nearly identical. If he knocks the door down then no question he stays. If it looks like he can use some further seasoning in the A then that's what he'll get. I think the team's expectation is that he'll spend a good chunk of the season up here but perhaps not all of it. I suspect that was communicated to Trouba and that convinced him to leave Michigan after only a single year.

The difference though between Trouba and Scheifele, IMO, is that Trouba is closer to being ready this year than Scheifele was last year. Mark was a bit of a project and I think Morrissey fits that same mold but Trouba is just further ahead at a similar age (maturity, strength, skill - and that's no knock on either Scheifele or Morrissey). I expect all three will ultimately contribute successfully to the franchise, their ETAs will just end up being dissimilar.

He couldn't be sent to the AHL.
If he didn't stick with the Jets he had to be sent to the CHL.
This year on the other hand he would go to the A.

EDIT: what Huffer said.

 

[Edgar Halliwax]

I am sure Trouba will start the season with us, but I suspect he'll have a clear view of the beautiful St Johns harbour before too long. See below.

I've got a feeling the only view of the beautiful St Johns harbour that #3 will ever see will be in a picture.

 

[buggs]

He couldn't be sent to the AHL.
If he didn't stick with the Jets he had to be sent to the CHL.
This year on the other hand he would go to the A.

EDIT: what Huffer said.

Thank you both for the correction, my bad.

 

[garret9]

I always find it interesting when people argue one way or another when a particular player should be kept at a lower level to develop or should be in the NHL like there is a right or wrong way. IMO a lot of factors enter into the situation (roster makeup, physical maturity, contract situation etc.) and a lot of the same players would have developed along the same lines irrespective of when they entered the NHL.

Off the top of my end I looked up a dozen top young d-man (list is not meant to be exclusive) and looked at when they became primarily an NHLer.

Out of:
Karlsson
Bogo
Doughty
Piet
Hamilton
Fowler
Myers
l. Schenn
OEL
PK Subban
McDonagh
A. Larson

5 become regulars in the 1st year after being drafted, 4 in the 2nd, 1 in the 3rd and 2 in the 4th. IMO Trouba will become a Jet this year if he makes the top 6 d-man, not because of any theory of the proper length of time necessary to develop at a lower level.

To add even on top to this very logical post:
Some of these jumped into tough minutes and drowned right away, slowly over the years improving.
Some of these started of being sheltered and slowly brought into tough minutes.
Some of these excelled at toughs right away.

 

[Whileee]

Trouba's size

I might be imagining things, but Trouba seems taller than I remember him in pre-season based on seeing him alongside other players. He's listed at 6'2", but I wouldn't be surprised if he's grown a bit since that measurement.

Does anyone have any information or thoughts about this?

I realize it's hard to get an accurate perspective from these sorts of pictures, but it looks as though Trouba might be as tall as Jokinen (6'3") in this picture.

 

[truck]

I think he said 6'3 somewhere

 

[Whileee]

I think he said 6'3 somewhere

Interesting. He's listed at 6'3" on his Wikipedia page, but 6'2" almost everywhere else.

If he ends up at 6'3" and 210-220 pounds (i.e. Bogosian's size) he will be such a tough guy to play against.

 

[Gm0ney]

Interesting. He's listed at 6'3" on his Wikipedia page, but 6'2" almost everywhere else.

If he ends up at 6'3" and 210-220 pounds (i.e. Bogosian's size) he will be such a tough guy to play against.

He was standing beside Ladd the other night, who's listed as 6'3" and they looked about the same height...Trouba might have been a bit taller.

 

[ps241]

I think he said 6'3 somewhere

Last spring just after he was signed by Winnipeg and joined the team he was interviewed by Hustler on the pre H & L show and Jacob said they measured him that day and he is was 6'3".

 

[ps241]

Interesting. He's listed at 6'3" on his Wikipedia page, but 6'2" almost everywhere else.

If he ends up at 6'3" and 210-220 pounds (i.e. Bogosian's size) he will be such a tough guy to play against.

He will end up being 6'3" (maybe 6'4") and probably 215- 220 when his body fills out....he is a driven kid and he is still a teenager.

 

[allan5oh]

Pretty sure he has some tall relatives as well.

 

[ps241]

Pretty sure he has some tall relatives as well.

His dad is 6'9" and uncle is 7'0.....his Dad played collage basketball and mom played collage fastball. this was also in that same interview.

 

[jetkarma*]

Pretty sure he has some tall relatives as well.

AKA giants . 7 feet is very tall .

More seriously he will easily be a big bodied physically punishing dman.

 

[Whileee]

He will end up being 6'3" (maybe 6'4") and probably 215- 220 when his body fills out....he is a driven kid and he is still a teenager.

Already he seems to hold his own in collisions with NHL forwards. When fully developed he'll likely be a real physical force.

 

[ps241]

Already he seems to hold his own in collisions with NHL forwards. When fully developed he'll likely be a real physical force.

Yea that is how I see it as well. I would say holds his own is the perfect description and he is willing to use force like the recent hits on Pominvillie and MacKinnon. Also in the Wild game he was really punishing guys for loitering in the crease. he has no trouble throwing the late cross check to the head after the whistle in the pile ups......He has a mean streak which is great.

when his body fills out he will be much more dangerous.

 

[Duke749]

His dad is 6'9" and uncle is 7'0.....his Dad played collage basketball and mom played collage fastball. this was also in that same interview.

So he's a midget in his family that never reached his potential with regards to height?