Fully agree, refreshing to have an adequate top 4, best since
Jones - Werenski
Savard - Gavrikov
Player Discussion: Ivan Provorov
- Thread starter CBJWerenski8
- Start date
Jones - Werenski
Savard - Gavrikov
BB88
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Well then how do you bring in legit top4 Dmen?
If you’re not willing to pay for them.
This isn’t a team that players are willing to leave 10M+ on the table to join, but players like Severson and Provorov are one step to getting to that place where players would want to join and have a chance at competing. To getting players agree to more team friendly contracts because they believe in the culture& chance at winning.
& yes 8 years is 8 years but where they are and where they were the positives negate the negatives.
6.25M is not going to be a lot of money in 4-5 years time.
Of course I would have loved to see him get a 5-6 year deal but I’m realistic and it was about damm time the defense got addresses & with all the kids and Provorov& Severson it’s something we don’t have to be afraid of for the next 5 years. Isn’t that a massive positive?
Thanks to this offseason we can hope that the only major hurdle in getting to the contending level is goaltending and now they’ll have time and assets to spend on figuring that out. Over having to figute that out+ still having to figure out the defense
& the question was will Provorov stay long term here, Severson also plays a part in that
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BB88
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The last thing they should have done was try to tank for another season, it would have been about impossible anyways unless they gutted the team.
- This team has had trouble with signing players, another tank season would be exactly the opposite of what the doctor orders for that problem
- This team already had a top2/3 prospect pool in the league lead by franchise C& Dprospects
- Culture, them keeping losing they’d be another step closer to whatever Buffalo and Edmonton were all those years.
& as you’ve seen from Buffalo& Detroit in recent years it’s not that easy to just brush of the losing culture even with all those talented young players.
Also them tanking for another year would have/will be the end of multiple employees on the Jackets.
koteka
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Yes, and I am 100% ok with that. I know they aren’t though.
Also, Jiricek is a great prospect, but he has already had one major injury and I don’t like what they are doing with him. I’d love to have another high level D prospect.
BB88
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Why are you okay with that?
You rather see people lose their jobs instead of seeing this team improve and play to their potential?
Sorry to say but that sounds ridiculous.
& why are they now messing up with Jiricek?
He’s a franchise tier prospect with multiple years of pro level play under his belt. They kept him in the AHL for his +1season.
Mateychuk, Svozil, Ceulemans all played or will play their +1 and +2 seasons outside the NHL.
Can we please stop with this rushing the Dmen idea?
koteka
Registered User
I don’t think we have the staff in place to build a team to compete for a Stanley Cup so I definitely want people to lose their jobs. I don’t want to build back to a bubble team with no chance of deep playoff runs.
Jiricek should be in the AHL learning defensive positioning and how not to be beat 1 on 1.
None of Mateychuk, Svozil, and Ceulemans are elite prospects in my opinion. Mateychuk is a really good prospect, but not elite. None have earned a spot in the NHL, and we have too many mediocre defensemen taking up spots.
When we successfully develop a defenseman in our system, maybe people will think we can do it. I count two guys — Werenski and Nutivaara — drafted and developed by this regime that were successes. Gavrikov developed in the KHL. He played 4 seasons in the KHL after he was drafted before he came to the Jackets.
BB88
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How do you know they aren’t?
”Build only a bubble team”
What are you talking about?
They just drafted the best prospect in franchise history, have a top2/3 prospect pool in the league with another franchise Dprospect.
The most important positions when trying to build a contender?
1C and 1D
For 1C they have Fantilli
For 1D they have Werenski& Jiricek.
That alone gives you one of the best trios to build around your potential stanley cup contender among the younger teams in the league.
Yet that’s a failure by them?
Then you add Gaudreau/Laine/Johnson/Marchenko/Dumais etc up front and there’s a support group strong enough to build a potential contender.
Yet again they’ve failed?
Then you add
Provorov/Severson/Mateychuk/Svozil/Bean etc on the defensive depth and you have a strong enough defensive pool for potential contender developing.
Yet they’ve failed?
The only position where they are lacking in order to become a legit contender is goaltending yet that is the ”easiest” position to address.
& now you are changing your tone.
You said they have a habit of rushing prospects and why you don’t trust this defense moving forward.
Then I bring up all the top Dprospects they have and how actually they have been rushing none of them. Yet they are messing with their development because?
You are just rooting them to fail, the top prospects, young players, management, everyone by their style I guess
I don’t think you have any idea what a potential bubble team looks like.
See the past Minnesota if you want to know one and then tell me how this team is being build up the same way.
Nor do I think do you know what rushing the Dprospects mean
Werenski- Jiricek
Provorov- Severson
Mateychuk- Bean
100% has potential to be a Stanley Cup level and among the elites in the East.
& still they can draft the best Dprospect they can with another top12 or so pick.
Successfull season, including great year by Provorov and the kids with a top12 pick is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> failure by all and top5 pick. Not even a contest
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koteka
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Saying we have great prospects does not equal having the pieces to build a Cup contender. You can keep saying that, but I don’t know what you hope to accomplish by saying we have a good prospect pool. And we don’t have pieces in our prospect pool that I would like, such as a big defenseman who is highly praised his positioning and ability to shut down players 1 on 1.
We have a great center prospect but he is a prospect. We don’t know who the other centers will be in 3 years.
We have a great defensive prospect but 1) he is only a prospect, 2) he is has had a serious injury, 3) he gets beat badly 1 on 1. Instead of trying to let him learn to play defense in the AHL, we have him in the NHL.
Werenski was a very good 2D but he hasn’t shown he is a 1D.
I think we rush prospects. I don’t put positions on it. We have rushed Sillinger. I thought we were rushing Tarasov. Now I think we are rushing Jiricek.
I want to put together a Stanley Cup team. I don’t think we have the pieces. Yet. I think we have some pieces. I am a big fan of Werenski, Jiricek, and Fantilli. I am less sold on other moves that have been made, like adding Provorov who will be a UFA in 2025.
I am not wishing for failure, but I expect it. Partially because we have kept the same front office that has not produced a deep Stanley Cup run. Partially because I don’t like the many of the moves the front office has made over the last few years, moving away from a tough defensive team to a team that should be good in transitions but hasn’t been.
We are building a team without a good goalie that doesn’t play defense and looks to out quick and out score its opponents. To me that is not a team that will be a Cup contender.
We have a great center prospect but he is a prospect. We don’t know who the other centers will be in 3 years.
We have a great defensive prospect but 1) he is only a prospect, 2) he is has had a serious injury, 3) he gets beat badly 1 on 1. Instead of trying to let him learn to play defense in the AHL, we have him in the NHL.
Werenski was a very good 2D but he hasn’t shown he is a 1D.
I think we rush prospects. I don’t put positions on it. We have rushed Sillinger. I thought we were rushing Tarasov. Now I think we are rushing Jiricek.
I want to put together a Stanley Cup team. I don’t think we have the pieces. Yet. I think we have some pieces. I am a big fan of Werenski, Jiricek, and Fantilli. I am less sold on other moves that have been made, like adding Provorov who will be a UFA in 2025.
I am not wishing for failure, but I expect it. Partially because we have kept the same front office that has not produced a deep Stanley Cup run. Partially because I don’t like the many of the moves the front office has made over the last few years, moving away from a tough defensive team to a team that should be good in transitions but hasn’t been.
We are building a team without a good goalie that doesn’t play defense and looks to out quick and out score its opponents. To me that is not a team that will be a Cup contender.
BB88
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But as this is Provorov thread have to say I like how his body language has looked.
Seems like he really needed a change of scenery
Seems like he really needed a change of scenery
BB88
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Nobody has tried to say they are a contender today….
Somehow they should rebuild yet while they are rebuilding it then gets used against them how they aren’t a contender yet.
Of course when you are rebuilding lot of the talk involves potential.
Of course they aren’t a finished product, but they have potentially all the most valuable pieces needed to create a contender. They just need more time and you know they have plenty of time to build the supporting group to contending level as well.
Werenski= 1D
Jiricek= 1D (potential)
Provorov = 2/3D
Severson= 4D
Mateychuk= 4D (Potential)
Bean= 5D
But yep they don’t have potential to build a contender from the blueline.
Give me a break
But I’ll leave you wishing/expecting them all to fail and I’ll enjoy watching the loaded talent pool they’ve built
koteka
Registered User
First of all, it is rather rude to tell people they want their favorite team to fail. I want them to succeed. I just don’t see it happening with JD and Jarmo. You can try to argue that I am wrong, but don’t say I want them to fail.
Second if all, I don’t see the point of going on with you, but Provorov is hitting free agency next year, up until a few games ago nobody liked Bean, I still say Werenski is a very good 2D, and none of those defensive guys are shut the other team down at the end of the game type players. So it doesn’t impress me. I look at the Hurricanes defensive prospects and I am jealous, and their current defense is way better than ours.
Enjoy the talent pool. I am. I just don’t think we have the pieces to take us to the Cup.
So far he’s been undisputed #1 D for us
6 games, 5 points, 24 mins a night
6 games, 5 points, 24 mins a night
Werenski is 2D, Provorov 1-2D, Severson and Bean 4D. Jiříček can be 1D, I think.
But Ivan is our best D now.
But Ivan is our best D now.
I3LI3
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BB88
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You said you’d rather see them lose and people lose their jobs, to see the kids rather fail than play up to their potential.
I’ll tell you a secret. No Cup winning team is perfect.
Vegas just won with goaltending nobody would have believed in
Colorado won with an abysmal goaltending.
Still after having lost their depth everyone had them as contenders, why?
Because of Mackinnon, Rantanen, Makar, Toews, Byram
Florida went to finals without a true 1D and Marc Staal in the top4, who’s a worse player than Gubranson.
Why? Because they have Barkov, Tkachuk, Bob, Verhaeghe.
What matters the most in building is having the top talent.
Fantilli
Jiricek
Werenski
Gaudreau
Laine
Johnson
Provorov
Is not a base that’s ceiling is a bubble team, it’s a ridiculous claim.
Werenski- Jiricek- Provorov top3 has potential matching up against anyone in the East once Jiricek grows more.
& You don’t know whether or not Provorov is hitting free agency or not. By the start it really looks like he likes it in Columbus& he has a chance at playing with either Jiricek or Severson over the years on a team that’s building a potential contender.
Again this is where winning is much better, you attract better players
I had very high expectations for Provorov coming into the season, probably higher than most. He was the guy I wanted in 2015, not that I’m disappointed with Z, but just pointing out that I didn’t necessarily buy the claims that he was washed, and felt fine with the price we paid. I think it might be safe to say he’s meeting those expectations, and is worth the price we paid for him. I’m glad that a change of scenery seems to have helped him.
His best trait, that makes him worth re-signing in my mind? Durability. He’s never missed more than 13 games in a season, and has played all 82 in 4/7 seasons.
His best trait, that makes him worth re-signing in my mind? Durability. He’s never missed more than 13 games in a season, and has played all 82 in 4/7 seasons.
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I don’t know how this plays out over the full season but so far Provorov has looked good, surprising me with his play. He’s looked better than Severson. As to him, it’s only a handful of games but I’m left with the same question I had when his deal was done - is this an 8yr deal guy?
cbjthrowaway
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provorov's probably more of a #3 (albeit a very good one!) and mateychuk has potential to be a #2 IMO. svozil's got #3/4 potential.
Provorov is a 1D and Werenski is more of a 3D if we take this season into account so far.
BB88
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I tried to make pretty realistic expectations for them all, some will underperform and some will overperform to balance it out.
There was a time where Provorov was seen as a franchise 1D (or atleast developing one) and in the last couple of years got off the rails.
Getting a change of scenery could jump him back to quality 2D level. (For me to jump into saying he’s a 1D needs a lot bigger sample size)
Suddenly when you think about it
Werenski
Provorov
Bean
Has to be among the best LD trios in the league with Carolinas.
& then you can add Mateychuk and Svozil and it’s a big strenght of the team as of today
koteka
Registered User
Give me Dahlin, Power, Samuelsson - although one of those guys often plays on the right.
I'm going to cherry pick this part because it's interesting to debate.
For me Werenski is a good 2 who honestly is overpaid. He's a very good offensive defenseman but has serious flaws that prevent him from being a true #1.
Those flaws being:
1. Durability, there aren't a ton of true #1 dmen his size and I think it hurts him. He's injured a lot.
2. Passing vision, he is so limited in this imo, he is great 5 on 5 offensively but this is the main reason he sucks on the PP.
3. I'm calling this one "general malaise defensively". We've all seen it, Werenski casually defending in the D zone with no urgency.
Jiricek:
It's way too early to call so I won't but I think he's at minimum a top 4 defenseman. It looks like he needs to get a lot better defensively to become a true #1 and probably develop some kind of mean streak to go with it. Who knows how it progresses.
Provorov: For me, he is our best overall dman, he doesn't really impress me offensively but he makes a lot of good passes. He probably shoots too often for someone who doesnt have that impressive of a shot. What I like the most about his game is his ability to get out of trouble in our zone which this team sucks at. He is always willing to take a hit to make a play and gives this team a level of comfort on the ice. For me he's a well rounded #2 dman who can fill in as a #1 but won't allow you to win long term if he's your only good dman.
Severson:
This one is tough bc you know he has a good track record but my god he makes a lot of dumb d zone mistakes. Apparently he has not improved upon this at all from NJ days. I have hopes he's going to be a positive, he needs to start showing off his O zone potential because that contract is loooooonnnnggg and could get ugly if he doesn't settle in.
Mateychuk:
I think Mateychuk has serious potential, he did not look out of place in pre-season and I like his overall poise with the puck. Obviously way too early to call but I think he could be a #2 dman, I'm quite high on him.
Bean:
I'm still pretty bearish long term on Bean, he's looked good to start but long term I wonder if he truly improves and becomes a long term piece. As a #5 I think he's fine but wonder if other guys push him out. We all know Gudbranson isn't going to sit.
All of that you have maybe 2 solid #2 dmen, 2 others with potential and veteran with a good track record.
There's potential to damage in the playoffs but there's a huge part that's missing here, EXPERIENCE. Hopefully that changes starting soon as it's truly invaluable for development both for players and for a franchise.
Sorry for the unnecessary rant.
That feels a little premature, but if you get them to play like they started this year and get good progress from Mateychuk or Svozil (don't even need both) then yes, we're frikkin loaded.
Comments upon comments:
Werenski has slowly become outstanding defensively. It only takes him a stride or two to keep up and that makes folks think he's not fully engaged. For that same reason people don't get how fast he is. He's especially good at using his shoulders to get on pucks and ward off pressure so we can get out of our zone cleanly. His slow play on the PP is a significant factor limiting his value. Although they all seemed to be moving the puck quickly lately, perhaps under Recchi's guidance. I agree that his passing vision is more limited than you'd like for an offensive leader.
Jiricek will show you his mean streak in time. He hits to hurt and he can push the boundaries of taking penalties with nasty slashes and crosschecks. His in zone defense should soon show as a strength: great stick on puck, strength on the man, and quick thinking, able to control the puck tight to his body ("pocket play") to evade pressure and help exit the zone. It's getting burned on the rush that is holding him back. He's not comfortable on his heels.
Provorov has also impressed me. And I agree that he's taken a few too many low quality shots, from the corner points especially. I've always liked his passing game, I'm still watching to see what his level is here, he can have games (such as the first of this season) where he leaves his brain at home. But overall so far he looks like a clear top pair guy, let's hope we see more of it.
Severson looking dumb is, as you say, nothing new. I wouldn't say he's been terrible but we're hoping for him to live up to his deal, which is a big ask. He can make some great passes but we haven't seen much of that yet, perhaps he's just getting used to where everyone is in the system.
I wouldn't say that Mateychuk doesn't have #1 potential. My median expectation is probably closer to #2 / #3 but I think the attributes are there for him to be a high end 5v5 player. His anticipation has always been special and he took a huge step this summer in his speed and strength. I didn't imagine he had that room for growth on his frame, now he's essentially ready in those categories. Which is wild, because he's so young, just a few months older than Fantilli.
Bean has always looked like a lightweight to me so his physical development in the last year has been really encouraging. I think he has the puck poise, the quickness and the basic defensive chops to be a middle pair guy, but only if he can stay strong and avoid getting too dinged up. I doubt his durability, and that isn't just a problem of games played, some guys can't maintain their strength when they get dinged.
I'm only worried about Severson if Jiricek fails to develop properly. Severson should be second pairing within the next 2 seasons and hopefully by then Jiricek will be taking all of his PP and PK time and Severson will be playing most 5v5 with some second or third pairing PK
