Post-Game Talk: Islanders 4, Penguins 3 - Well That Sucks

[Pens x]

It’s simply amazing that people are still giving Jarry a free pass at this point. It is actually very scary that people are failing to see just how bad he’s playing.

The goaltending is the biggest problem right now. Are the other areas playing up to par? Absolutely not.

I said all off season that we needed to bring in another vet goalie, but I was told over over but Jarry is an all star! (Never mind the fact that he was a replacement player because Elvis got hurt)

But we were too focused on dumping salary and signing garbage free agents.

We finished 7th best in the league and Jarry was an all star propaganda didnt age well. That’s what so many people spewed if you criticized the team heading into this season.

 

[TimmyD]

I’m not saying the goaltending is great but I look at it this way... if we had Mrazek, Vasy, MAF, or any other goalie at the top of the save % list they wouldn’t be doing much better. Do we need Jarry and DeSmith to make more big saves? No question about it...but if other guys who are currently playing better would look just as bad or slightly better here, which is what I believe would happen that to me means the defense is a bigger issue. I mean put Jarry in Vegas behind that defense and I bet he’s close to where MAF is right now

 

[Ogrezilla]

I’m not saying the goaltending is great but I look at it this way... if we had Mrazek, Vasy, MAF, or any other goalie at the top of the save % list they wouldn’t be doing much better. Do we need Jarry and DeSmith to make more big saves? No question about it...but if other guys who are currently playing better would look just as bad or slightly better here, which is what I believe would happen that to me means the defense is a bigger issue. I mean put Jarry in Vegas behind that defense and I bet he’s close to where MAF is right now

I don't think this is the case. I think we win this game with those guys in our net.

 

[Pens x]

I don't think this is the case. I think we win this game with those guys in our net.

We’d have more wins if we had any of those goalies.

 

[bigkam]

Pretty classic game where a weak goal here and a Letang gaffe there loses it for us. We seem to be past the point where our offense can consistently make up for crappy defense, which is concerning given the makeup of this team.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I’m not saying the goaltending is great but I look at it this way... if we had Mrazek, Vasy, MAF, or any other goalie at the top of the save % list they wouldn’t be doing much better. Do we need Jarry and DeSmith to make more big saves? No question about it...but if other guys who are currently playing better would look just as bad or slightly better here, which is what I believe would happen that to me means the defense is a bigger issue. I mean put Jarry in Vegas behind that defense and I bet he’s close to where MAF is right now

They almost definitely would be doing better than the crap results Jarry has given so far.

People only think the Penguins are giving up a boatload of high danger chances against is because Jarry keeps getting scored on them.

 

[Icarium]

Losing a second game in row because of a puck over glass penalty and again having to wait almost a week for a chance to make up for that is agony. Or at least it would have been, if I honestly thought this team could go anywhere with Sully in charge. Good to see Geno and especially Sid finding their form finally, not so good that we somehow found a way to lose despite having the lead in the third and all the momentum. Rust missing a zillion chances and Zucker and Malkin trying to pass the puck into the net instead of shooting came back to haunt us. Also, Matheson is basically a forward playing defense... who isn't nearly as good offensively to make this worth it (i.e. he ain't Brent Burns).
We only score off the rush/forecheck because when we have extended zone time our one and only tactic - pass to the blue line and look for deflections and rebounds. I mean, it's great that there is more emphasis on trying to score dirty goals than in previous seasons but this can't be the only tactic!
IIRC, we have not led even once at the start of the third period, our record is not exactly surprising considering that but finding ways to beat ourselves is rather annoying.

 

[Empoleon8771]

And that's why Analytics are never used as a be-all. Because defensively they look like shit. The goalie is the last line of defense. It would be telling if it were one goalie, but we're working on two and a 3rd they let go with changes to the defense, added injuries to throw salt on the wounds. Forwards not doing their part.

Smoke and mirrors.

Hand waving away analytics because you don't like what they say isn't a legitimate argument.

Again, we actually have some stats that can evaluate these things. These stats say Jarry has been far away the worst starting goalie in all of hockey this year. If you're only stopping 6.5 out of 10 high danger shots against, when the league average is 8.1 of 10 high danger shots against, you're doing a terrible job. This isn't even a technical critique of Jarry, which you can certainly make (he's playing small as hell right now and his rebound control has been awful), this is just a statistical one.

The defense of Jarry in here sounds like people blaming the fielders for a pitcher having an ERA of 5.75 on the year, when his FIP (fielding independent pitching) is like 5.5. Sure, maybe the defense is making his numbers a little bit worse, but he's the primary driver for being bad.

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

Ian Moran is bad defenseman who makes bad plays at bad times.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

The rabid defense of Jarry is curious. I have to wonder if it's a product of going SO hard against Murray last year as a fanbase.

Regardless the defense and structure are indeed not up to snuff on this team but both the eyeballs and analytics say that the goaltending is garbo and I'm not so sure why so many are afraid to say that. I mean... OF COURSE you want to limit high danger chances. But if your goaltender is starter or even decent-backup tier he's gotta stop SOME of them.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I’m not saying the goaltending is great but I look at it this way... if we had Mrazek, Vasy, MAF, or any other goalie at the top of the save % list they wouldn’t be doing much better. Do we need Jarry and DeSmith to make more big saves? No question about it...but if other guys who are currently playing better would look just as bad or slightly better here, which is what I believe would happen that to me means the defense is a bigger issue. I mean put Jarry in Vegas behind that defense and I bet he’s close to where MAF is right now

Most people are just lazy and don’t understand what they are watching, so it’s easy to blame the goalie.

When both goalies haven’t let up less than 3 goals all season, save one game, even the laziest among us should be able to figure out it is a systematic issue.

I guess it helps people feel better to think another goalie would fix the real issues, but good luck with that unless you have one of the only two elite goalies I can think of in this league...

And both are making 7.5 and 10m... so uh...

 

[Empoleon8771]

The rabid defense of Jarry is curious. I have to wonder if it's a product of going SO hard against Murray last year as a fanbase.

Regardless the defense and structure are indeed not up to snuff on this team but both the eyeballs and analytics say that the goaltending is garbo and I'm not so sure why so many are afraid to say that. I mean... OF COURSE you want to limit high danger chances. But if your goaltender is starter or even decent-backup tier he's gotta stop SOME of them.

Yeah, that's the thing I don't understand. If you can excuse Jarry for any high danger goal against because it was a dangerous chance, why the hell is Jarry their starting goalie and why are they paying him $3.5 million?

If you want to get a goalie who can stop the easy shots, you can get that for league minimum. Hell, you can get that probably with an AHL caliber goalie too.

Most people are just lazy and don’t understand what they are watching, so it’s easy to blame the goalie.

When both goalies haven’t let up less than 3 goals all season, save one game, even the laziest among us should be able to figure out it is a systematic issue.

I guess it helps people feel better to think another goalie would fix the real issues, but good luck with that unless you have one of the only two elite goalies I can think of in this league...

And both are making 7.5 and 10m... so uh...

Or maybe it's just that both of their goalies suck.

Like Jesus, DeSmith was terrible in the AHL last year, so why are people blaming team defense for DeSmith being bad in the NHL this year? But yes, it's just fans being lazy by blaming goaltending, not wanting a goalie who can make stops at a NHL level.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Sublimating it down to "sure blame the goaltender lol fans" is lazy too, though. Nobody is dumb enough (I hope) to put these losses just on one guy. That's not how this works. Unless you are Jack Johnson. But I think after ten games plus what we saw at the end of last season should give plenty of people pause re: Jarry.

Yeah, that's the thing I don't understand. If you can excuse Jarry for any high danger goal against because it was a dangerous chance, why the hell is Jarry their starting goalie and why are they paying him $3.5 million?

If you want to get a goalie who can stop the easy shots, you can get that for league minimum. Hell, you can get that probably with an AHL caliber goalie too.

Yeah I'm not trying to sound like some kind of dad wagging his finger at an errant son but a lot of confidence and money were put into Jarry despite a small sample size and some frankly so-so work over the course of his larger career. Everyone loves to talk shit about how Sid and Geno need to step up and how miserable they are... well... they aren't the only ones.

 

[TimmyD]

They almost definitely would be doing better than the crap results Jarry has given so far.

People only think the Penguins are giving up a boatload of high danger chances against is because Jarry keeps getting scored on them.

I didn’t say they wouldn’t be better at all...I said they would be slightly better...they just wouldn’t fix what’s actually wrong

 

[Ogrezilla]

Most people are just lazy and don’t understand what they are watching, so it’s easy to blame the goalie.

When both goalies haven’t let up less than 3 goals all season, save one game, even the laziest among us should be able to figure out it is a systematic issue.

I guess it helps people feel better to think another goalie would fix the real issues, but good luck with that unless you have one of the only two elite goalies I can think of in this league...

And both are making 7.5 and 10m... so uh...

Goalies aren't THE issue, but they are right there near the top of our long list of issues. I'm not saying Jarry is the main reason we lost last night. But I am saying that goalie playing reasonable well could have won us that game, or at least got us an OT point.

I didn’t say they wouldn’t be better at all...I said they would be slightly better...they just wouldn’t fix what’s actually wrong

Yeah, I guess I can agree with that. I think this is the only game we've lost where being slightly better changes the outcome in our favor. I don't think changing our goalie makes us a top team suddenly. Sadly when the team and forwards and the D and the goalies all need to bail eachother out, things aren't great

 

[Empoleon8771]

I didn’t say they wouldn’t be better at all...I said they would be slightly better...they just wouldn’t fix what’s actually wrong

This team has 2 major problems right now: lack of production from the big guns and goaltending.

If you replace Jarry with one of those goalies, you fix one of their 2 major problems on the year.

 

[TimmyD]

The rabid defense of Jarry is curious. I have to wonder if it's a product of going SO hard against Murray last year as a fanbase.

Regardless the defense and structure are indeed not up to snuff on this team but both the eyeballs and analytics say that the goaltending is garbo and I'm not so sure why so many are afraid to say that. I mean... OF COURSE you want to limit high danger chances. But if your goaltender is starter or even decent-backup tier he's gotta stop SOME of them.

I’m a big Murray guy as you can see so defending Jarry has nothing to do with preferring him over Murray last season. It has way more to do with the fact that I don’t actually believe any other goalie fixes the main problem

 

[LOGiK]

Made bullshit signings the last 3 years ... I'm surprised some of you have still have so much care left in you.


Team needed fixing up after the cup runs... now the team needs to fix JR's blunders ON TOP of STILL needing to fix a few holes.

 

[K Fleur]

The rabid defense of Jarry is curious. I have to wonder if it's a product of going SO hard against Murray last year as a fanbase.

Regardless the defense and structure are indeed not up to snuff on this team but both the eyeballs and analytics say that the goaltending is garbo and I'm not so sure why so many are afraid to say that. I mean... OF COURSE you want to limit high danger chances. But if your goaltender is starter or even decent-backup tier he's gotta stop SOME of them.

It undoubtedly is. Jarry didn’t kill Yinzer Jesus so he won’t ever have the same kind of of rabid fans just waiting to turn on him.

 

[TimmyD]

This team has 2 major problems right now: lack of production from the big guns and goaltending.

If you replace Jarry with one of those goalies, you fix one of their 2 major problems on the year.

I don’t believe switching goalies prevents Kris Letang from making the wrong decision to play a guy behind the net when it’s clear he shouldn’t have

 

[Empoleon8771]

I also find it kinda funny that people say "but DeSmith is bad too, which means it's the fault of team defense", when:

1. Jarry should be held to a way higher expectation than "on par with DeSmith" because he's paid 3x as much as DeSmith
2. DeSmith wasn't even that good in the AHL last year, so he's not even a guaranteed NHL goalie
3. Jarry has been sizably worse than DeSmith has this year. DeSmith hasn't been great, he's given up 3.5 more goals than expected based on his chances (10.5 xGA and 14 aGA), but that's not terrible. Jarry is at 10.5 more goals against than expected (14.51 xGA and 25 aGA)
4, Even using simple numbers, DeSmith (.882 save%) is closer to the league average save% (around .905) than he is to Jarry (.857 save%)

 

[Ogrezilla]

I don’t believe switching goalies prevents Kris Letang from making the wrong decision to play a guy behind the net when it’s clear he shouldn’t have

but it might bail him out for it. Or not let the puck slip right out to an open guy on that last PP.

Every team gives up high danger chances. Jarry is saving less of them than any other goalie in the league. He isn't the only problem, but he is a problem so far this year.

 

[TimmyD]

but it might bail him out for it. Or not let the puck slip right out to an open guy on that last PP.

It might bail him out once in a blue moon...but not all the time...the chance should have never happened to begin with

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don’t believe switching goalies prevents Kris Letang from making the wrong decision to play a guy behind the net when it’s clear he shouldn’t have

Switching goalies would cause the Penguins to stop more than 6.5 high danger shots per 10 high danger shots, though.

Maybe none of the individual goals were Jarry's fault, but getting a better goalie would mean that they would be stopping more of those shots on the end result. Jarry may not be individually blamed on any goal against, but actual NHL goalies can stop WAY more of those shots than Jarry is.

If Jarry gives up 7 breakaway goals on 10 breakaway shots, he's playing like shit because NHL goalies can stop a larger percentage than that.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Yeah, that's the thing I don't understand. If you can excuse Jarry for any high danger goal against because it was a dangerous chance, why the hell is Jarry their starting goalie and why are they paying him $3.5 million?

If you want to get a goalie who can stop the easy shots, you can get that for league minimum. Hell, you can get that probably with an AHL caliber goalie too.



Or maybe it's just that both of their goalies suck.

Like Jesus, DeSmith was terrible in the AHL last year, so why are people blaming team defense for DeSmith being bad in the NHL this year? But yes, it's just fans being lazy by blaming goaltending, not wanting a goalie who can make stops at a NHL level.

Like I said, it’s laziness.

If you don’t think it’s a systematic issue, pay more attention and stop spewing stats that mean zilch.

If you want sound goaltending in this league today, you better play sound hockey.

That’s the state of the league.

If you think there is a better, more realistic answer out there right now, you are in denial.

Play disciplined hockey, don’t leave your goalie out to dry every single game, and the results will change.

All the whining and bitching about the goalies around here the last few years won’t change that reality - sorry.