Is Vilardi the most expendable prospect?

[Fishhead]

How can we be so badly misusing Vilardi, while simultaneously rehabbing Lias Andersons career? The answer is Lias is utilizing his skills more effectively. Same management. Both under performing high 1st rounders. One's turning it around, the other isn't.

Now I might be eating crow soon. I hope I am. Maybe they'll move him around and he'll find success over this coming home stand.

I don't know how much Andersson is using his skills, 6 points in 26 games doesn't scream first-rounder to me. And I don't see how he has turned anything around, he's scored 3 goals for the Kings. In the few games he's played this year his possession metrics are in the shitter just like Vilardi. A lot of it is perception. They kicked ass in preseason, and Lias looked good in one of his games so he's perceived as turning a corner, but he's just as unproductive as he's always been.

The good thing is we don't see these guys all the time like the coaches do, so our perceptions are probably way off. Maybe Gabe and Arvie are conditioning like crazy while they are out and come back improved. Maybe their timing is way off and they suck. We also aren't privy to why Vilardi hasn't been moved to the wing (we will have the same discussion about Kupari if he's around), even though it's painfully obvious that that's where they will need to be if they stay on the team. We just think there are idiots, but there is probably a reason - and personally I think once Byfield comes back things get shuffled considerably.

Or, maybe they just are idiots. Time will tell.

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

I love you but I don't get why people keep saying this. It's a macro thing, not a micro thing. "we won so the decisions don't matter" only applies to the Cup imo.

If people can be positive when we're losing, it's entirely appropriate to be critical when we're winning, especially when there are several-year trends and a future at stake, and some very clearly still poor decisions happening (i.e. Maatta getting absolutely crushed out there and still being exalted).

We are talking about Vilardi, right? The same guy who's only played, like what, 6 games this season? He was also the same player who most considered to be the best player in the pre-season, centering the 3rd line, right? So, the season starts and he's put in that exact same position and opportunity and looks like dogshit. We haven't seen him again due to Covid protocol, but everyone just assumes that management is not going to give him another opportunity to succeed? Yeah, sorry, I don't get the whole jumping to conclusions thing and making statements like 'management is making poor decisions'. They must be making some decisions right, because we just had a 7-game winning streak without our best d-man in the lineup.

 

[lumbergh]

We are talking about Vilardi, right? The same guy who's only played, like what, 6 games this season? He was also the same player who most considered to be the best player in the pre-season, centering the 3rd line, right? So, the season starts and he's put in that exact same position and opportunity and looks like dogshit. We haven't seen him again due to Covid protocol, but everyone just assumes that management is not going to give him another opportunity to succeed? Yeah, sorry, I don't get the whole jumping to conclusions thing and making statements like 'management is making poor decisions'. They must be making some decisions right, because we just had a 7-game winning streak without our best d-man in the lineup.

Let's pitch in and get everyone on this board one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/Initech-Jump-Conclusions-Office-Space/dp/B07GL3CBBZ

 

[Lt Dan]

Let's pitch in and get everyone on this board one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/Initech-Jump-Conclusions-Office-Space/dp/B07GL3CBBZ

your username makes this post even better

 

[apocalypse]

Because we've won 7 straight and points in last 8, is drew doughty expendable? If a top forward could be had for doughty, does Blake and Co pull the trigger?

 

[Axl Rhoadz]

Because we've won 7 straight and points in last 8, is drew doughty expendable? If a top forward could be had for doughty, does Blake and Co pull the trigger?

They wouldn't because they still have to worry about selling tickets and trading one of the most beloved player on team won't be a good look. With that said, hell yah it should be considered.

 

[Gjwrams]

Because we've won 7 straight and points in last 8, is drew doughty expendable? If a top forward could be had for doughty, does Blake and Co pull the trigger?

First off, No. He is their best defenseman, a franchise name and a HOFer. Unless he's asking to be traded, he is staying.

Second, This team is just as likely to lose 7 out of their next 8. I don't know which team they are still.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Kupari another example of developmental misfocus? Like how? After the draft Kings let him play in Finland, where he played against men and played a lot and was productive. 2nd year after draft he played in the AHL (even streght, PP-time), then came injury. When he was healthy (3rd season after the draft) Kupari played in the AHL (1st line, 1 PP-unit, also some SH-time) and got a cup of coffee in the NHL (7 game, 1st NHL-goal). Now he is playing in the NHL 11-14 minutes per game and getting PP2 -ice time. How your mind Kinks should have developed him?

Kupari is 21 years old young man, a rookie. He has played 20 games in the NHL and you're saying that he is "example of developmental misfocus". Have you ever thought, that he is not a top6-talent? That Kupari's ceiling is a good, reliable, 25 point per year 3rd line center/winger?

Trevor Lewis was a f***ing useful player, a true team player. If Kupari turns out to be as good and as useful player than Lewis was, I'm more than happy.

We're agreeing on what Kupari has become.

My point is everyone is singing Kupari's praises for being a 20 point player then complaining we can't score while finding ways to bury a guy with offensive potential. It's simple.

Great--we turned our 1st round creative offensive speedster that has scored at other levels into a bottom six checker. Are we somehow short on those guys that Kupari is considered a success? Is that his ceiling? Maybe it is and the Kings have done all they could do with him. I know I wasn't high on him being more than a middle sixer anyway but I thought he could at least be a 20-20 guy. What I know is it's starting to be a worrying pattern--Kings don't know how to further develop scoring talent, but they can turn scorers into average NHL checkers.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

We are talking about Vilardi, right? The same guy who's only played, like what, 6 games this season? He was also the same player who most considered to be the best player in the pre-season, centering the 3rd line, right? So, the season starts and he's put in that exact same position and opportunity and looks like dogshit. We haven't seen him again due to Covid protocol, but everyone just assumes that management is not going to give him another opportunity to succeed? Yeah, sorry, I don't get the whole jumping to conclusions thing and making statements like 'management is making poor decisions'. They must be making some decisions right, because we just had a 7-game winning streak without our best d-man in the lineup.

No, he wasn't, that's the point.

He was put on the 4th line with harder deployment than Danault and looked like shit along with the rest of the team but was shut down for it.

And you're only proving the microfocus--we won 7 games means everything is fine? So what did losing 6 games mean? Do you suppose reality could be somewhere in the middle and we could be bungling some things while winning and getting some things right while losing?

I can't get on board with this binary 'you're either with us or against us' bullshit. A 7 game winning streak is something to celebrate and be happy about but also not an excuse to be ignorant for what else you need to work on.

 

[LAKings88]

In his last podcast Mayor touched on the Vilardi situation. Thinks he likely gets sent down to the AHL this week. Just his guess.

‎KINGS OF THE PODCAST : KOTP Ep. 115 - Returning Home on Apple Podcasts

 

[ScoreZeGoals]

Because we've won 7 straight and points in last 8, is drew doughty expendable? If a top forward could be had for doughty, does Blake and Co pull the trigger?

What the hell?

 

[King'sPawn]

We're agreeing on what Kupari has become.

My point is everyone is singing Kupari's praises for being a 20 point player then complaining we can't score while finding ways to bury a guy with offensive potential. It's simple.

Great--we turned our 1st round creative offensive speedster into a bottom six checker. Are we somehow short on those guys that Kupari is considered a success? Is that his ceiling? Maybe it is and the Kings have done all they could do with him. I know I wasn't high on him being more than a middle sixer anyway but I thought he could at least be a 20-20 guy. What I know is it's starting to be a worrying pattern--Kings don't know how to further develop scoring talent.

This has been my biggest concern for years. I promise this isn't meant to sound like "I told you so," because it remains to be seen (the AHL is looking more promising)... but this is one of the reasons why I was adamant on selling:

If you can't develop talent, then you're amassing top picks to mishandle better talent, but mishandling nonetheless.

My process/pipeline:
- verify you are able to develop talent in a subject area (in this case, offense). This should be attainable with non-first round picks
- once that is established, develop your young talent to replace appropriate vets
- during the above phase, your team should be good enough to make the playoffs/contend for the cup
- as more youth shows they can replace vets/take ownership, trade the older players to get picks and keep the cycle going.

You don't trade vets just because you can. Just like you don't trade prospects just because you can. You have to have prospects able to fill the role.

And some franchise players you don't just trade away. You want your better players to want to stay here.

There is a healthy number of vets where prospects should be put in a position to succeed.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

This has been my biggest concern for years. I promise this isn't meant to sound like "I told you so," because it remains to be seen (the AHL is looking more promising)... but this is one of the reasons why I was adamant on selling:

If you can't develop talent, then you're amassing top picks to mishandle better talent, but mishandling nonetheless.

My process/pipeline:
- verify you are able to develop talent in a subject area (in this case, offense). This should be attainable with non-first round picks
- once that is established, develop your young talent to replace appropriate vets
- during the above phase, your team should be good enough to make the playoffs/contend for the cup
- as more youth shows they can replace vets/take ownership, trade the older players to get picks and keep the cycle going.

You don't trade vets just because you can. Just like you don't trade prospects just because you can. You have to have prospects able to fill the role.

And some franchise players you don't just trade away. You want your better players to want to stay here.

There is a healthy number of vets where prospects should be put in a position to succeed.

I mean, we have to be the only stupid f***ing organization on the planet that has Anze Kopitar AND Philip Danault yet gives Gabe Vilardi the most defensive zone starts then wonders where his offense is.

Literally dumbest shit I've seen in hockey.

Okay, I'm done venting about that I promise--have to see where we go from here.

I'm not taking this as an I told you so, I remember when you first started saying it I was skeptical because I figured they had never had the blue chip talent to begin with to prove they could develop it. early returns on the mid round guys are good--but still, no offense. A guy like Bjornfot is a good example--he's a kickass player, still a black hole. Roy. Walker. Anderson. How many goals do we have amongst non-Doughty d-men, one? Wasn't that the same total as all last year? We've seen it with Kempe, we're starting to see it with Kupari. And I've been one of only a handful defending Turcotte's production but let's not forget how hard people around here have been going in on him. So not since Tanner Pearson nearly a decade ago have the Kings had a homegrown 20g scorer in the lineup (though you can make a case for Kempe's pace being exactly 20 last year and ahead of pace this year), even though they've had greater placement in the NHL of just about any team in the league. I think it's fair to start worrying that the development staff and by extension the coaching staff has no f***ing clue WHAT to do with raw offensive talent like Vilardi, Kaliyev, even Tkachev other than complain that they aren't checking as well as everyone else they've brainwashed.

WE can churn out middle-six two-way savants like it's no one's business; we can't handle creative scorers at all.

 

[Peter James Bond II]

I don't know how much Andersson is using his skills, 6 points in 26 games doesn't scream first-rounder to me. And I don't see how he has turned anything around, he's scored 3 goals for the Kings. In the few games he's played this year his possession metrics are in the shitter just like Vilardi. A lot of it is perception. They kicked ass in preseason, and Lias looked good in one of his games so he's perceived as turning a corner, but he's just as unproductive as he's always been.

The good thing is we don't see these guys all the time like the coaches do, so our perceptions are probably way off. Maybe Gabe and Arvie are conditioning like crazy while they are out and come back improved. Maybe their timing is way off and they suck. We also aren't privy to why Vilardi hasn't been moved to the wing (we will have the same discussion about Kupari if he's around), even though it's painfully obvious that that's where they will need to be if they stay on the team. We just think there are idiots, but there is probably a reason - and personally I think once Byfield comes back things get shuffled considerably.

Or, maybe they just are idiots. Time will tell.

Lias has turned things around. His skating has improved since he went back to Sweden and took another step over the last year with the Reign. 17 pts in 15 games was best on the Reign. He was excellent in preseason and beating opponents to pucks and winning most battles..his hands have been great, the breakaway goal against Lehner.

He then sustained a groin injury and I think he was trying to play through that. He still has not played any number of games with the same linemates on the Kings. Last year, with Wagner and that was terrible....and a few games with Lizotte and that does not work. Lias digs pucks and so does Lizotte. Lizotte does not make plays, Lias makes plays. No one to make plays to. Lias and Vilardi looked great. He still has not had a real chance with a decent number of consecutive games and with the same linemates.

Lemieux did not look so great last year...now gets consistent ice and not bounced around or scratched and he looks great. Give Lias 15 games and same linemates and I bet we'll
see his best yet.

 

[Fishhead]

Lias has turned things around. His skating has improved since he went back to Sweden and took another step over the last year with the Reign. 17 pts in 15 games was best on the Reign. He was excellent in preseason and beating opponents to pucks and winning most battles..his hands have been great, the breakaway goal against Lehner.

He then sustained a groin injury and I think he was trying to play through that. He still has not played any number of games with the same linemates on the Kings. Last year, with Wagner and that was terrible....and a few games with Lizotte and that does not work. Lias digs pucks and so does Lizotte. Lizotte does not make plays, Lias makes plays. No one to make plays to. Lias and Vilardi looked great. He still has not had a real chance with a decent number of consecutive games and with the same linemates.

Lemieux did not look so great last year...now gets consistent ice and not bounced around or scratched and he looks great. Give Lias 15 games and same linemates and I bet we'll
see his best yet.

If Lizotte doesn't make plays and Lias does, how is Lizotte's ppg almost twice as much as Anderssons?

Andersson: 92 games - 6g, 9a, 15p = .163 ppg
Lizotte: 121games - 9g, 27a, 36 p = .298 ppg

That's with Andersson getting better ice time with more offensive linemates. Lias looks better and more threatening on the ice, but the cold fact is that Lizotte outproduces him by a substantial margin. That's what I meant by perception. Both are the same age, one was a first-rounder and the other undersized and undrafted. If I were to post the above numbers and ask "guess who", most would think Andersson was the one with more than 15 NHL points.

I hope he gets it together and I hope we see the Lias from the preseason, but the bottom line is he hasn't turned anything around. Outside of this pre-season, what has he really done at the NHL level? I hope they give him a good 30 game look or so, but the reality is right now he looks to be another Martin Frk.

 

[Vino]

We're agreeing on what Kupari has become.

My point is everyone is singing Kupari's praises for being a 20 point player then complaining we can't score while finding ways to bury a guy with offensive potential. It's simple.

Great--we turned our 1st round creative offensive speedster that has scored at other levels into a bottom six checker. Are we somehow short on those guys that Kupari is considered a success? Is that his ceiling? Maybe it is and the Kings have done all they could do with him. I know I wasn't high on him being more than a middle sixer anyway but I thought he could at least be a 20-20 guy. What I know is it's starting to be a worrying pattern--Kings don't know how to further develop scoring talent, but they can turn scorers into average NHL checkers.

Sorry, obviously I see Kupari's ceiling differently than you (or King's Pawn?). I think his ceiling is 7th forward (just like Kempe). He has not been a PPG scorer at other levels (Liiga, AHL), unlike Sebastian Aho. I think in this case (Kupari) King's developmental staff has done good job. If everything goes well, Kupari will be above average checker. A guy, who can play against Connor McDavid or Connor Bedard, because Kupari is a such a good skater.

 

[King'sPawn]

I mean, we have to be the only stupid f***ing organization on the planet that has Anze Kopitar AND Philip Danault yet gives Gabe Vilardi the most defensive zone starts then wonders where his offense is.

Literally dumbest shit I've seen in hockey.

Okay, I'm done venting about that I promise--have to see where we go from here.

I'm not taking this as an I told you so, I remember when you first started saying it I was skeptical because I figured they had never had the blue chip talent to begin with to prove they could develop it. early returns on the mid round guys are good--but still, no offense. A guy like Bjornfot is a good example--he's a kickass player, still a black hole. Roy. Walker. Anderson. How many goals do we have amongst non-Doughty d-men, one? Wasn't that the same total as all last year? We've seen it with Kempe, we're starting to see it with Kupari. And I've been one of only a handful defending Turcotte's production but let's not forget how hard people around here have been going in on him. So not since Tanner Pearson nearly a decade ago have the Kings had a homegrown 20g scorer in the lineup (though you can make a case for Kempe's pace being exactly 20 last year and ahead of pace this year), even though they've had greater placement in the NHL of just about any team in the league. I think it's fair to start worrying that the development staff and by extension the coaching staff has no f***ing clue WHAT to do with raw offensive talent like Vilardi, Kaliyev, even Tkachev other than complain that they aren't checking as well as everyone else they've brainwashed.

WE can churn out middle-six two-way savants like it's no one's business; we can't handle creative scorers at all.

To be clear, I'm "okay" with the development of the defensemen. They are not supposed to be offensive dynamos - Bjornfot, Roy, and Anderson playing in top-4 roles is good.

My concern has remained to be the development of forwards into a high-end scoring role. It's great to get NHL players, but so far their biggest success story of the past decade is Tyler Toffoli.

 

[BigKing]

If Lizotte doesn't make plays and Lias does, how is Lizotte's ppg almost twice as much as Anderssons?

Andersson: 92 games - 6g, 9a, 15p = .163 ppg
Lizotte: 121games - 9g, 27a, 36 p = .298 ppg

That's with Andersson getting better ice time with more offensive linemates. Lias looks better and more threatening on the ice, but the cold fact is that Lizotte outproduces him by a substantial margin. That's what I meant by perception. Both are the same age, one was a first-rounder and the other undersized and undrafted. If I were to post the above numbers and ask "guess who", most would think Andersson was the one with more than 15 NHL points.

I hope he gets it together and I hope we see the Lias from the preseason, but the bottom line is he hasn't turned anything around. Outside of this pre-season, what has he really done at the NHL level? I hope they give him a good 30 game look or so, but the reality is right now he looks to be another Martin Frk.

I'm not knocking Lizotte or trying to argue anything substantial here, but Lizotte has played with what would be considered good players (for the Kings) for a decent chunk of his time in the NHL since the Kings sucked.

As a King, Lias is at 0.23o PPG. Since Lias has been on the team, Lizotte is at 0.240. The latter's PPG over his Kings career is bolstered by his 2020 season which will most likely be looked back upon as an outlier.

I'm not the biggest Lizotte fan but I don't like a 4th line comprised of midgets and nobody that can hit or Lizotte being in my Top 6. That's what had been happening the past couple of seasons but that's not the case anymore since he's in a pure energy role and has Lemieux riding shotgun. He's doing great in his current role.

 

[Pucknut50]

To be clear, I'm "okay" with the development of the defensemen. They are not supposed to be offensive dynamos - Bjornfot, Roy, and Anderson playing in top-4 roles is good.

My concern has remained to be the development of forwards into a high-end scoring role. It's great to get NHL players, but so far their biggest success story of the past decade is Tyler Toffoli.

How do you expect to score on a consistent level in the NHL when you have 6 stay at home defensemen? Forwards are fine it is the lack of offensive defensemen that the Kings lack. Watching other teams play you see the defensive breakdowns when the defensemen involved in the offensive zone. Sorting out that attacker you're not used to, causes that 2-1 or 3-2 or rebound coverage. Kings playing 3 on 5 will not get you alot of goals.

 

[Master Yoda]

Vilardi to Ontario.
Don't mind the move coming off a long layoff, to get his conditioning and confidence back.
The question now is how long does he stay?

 

[Eagle Fang]

Vilardi to Ontario.
Don't mind the move coming off a long layoff, to get his conditioning and confidence back.
The question now is how long does he stay?

As expected. If they play him on the wing that'll be a good sign management is trying to explore different options of having him fit into a top six role. Vilardi - Turcotte - Frk, do it Wrobo!

 

[bland]

Vilardi to Ontario.
Don't mind the move coming off a long layoff, to get his conditioning and confidence back.
The question now is how long does he stay?

As long as it takes, hopefully. He has been overmatched in the NHL.

I am much more concerned that JAD isn't a full time NHLer than Vilardi. Gabe has some definite issues that need to be addressed, its not as though he is sufficient enough to learn on the job - his play is just not good enough yet to keep him up.

 

[King'sPawn]

How do you expect to score on a consistent level in the NHL when you have 6 stay at home defensemen? Forwards are fine it is the lack of offensive defensemen that the Kings lack. Watching other teams play you see the defensive breakdowns when the defensemen involved in the offensive zone. Sorting out that attacker you're not used to, causes that 2-1 or 3-2 or rebound coverage. Kings playing 3 on 5 will not get you alot of goals.

Defensemen aren't there to provide the majority of offense. They can and have activated. They can also help with the offense with breakout passes.

I'm not okay with 6 stay at home defensemen, but given we have regularly developed contributors in the past decade (Walker, Muzzin... Clague's getting better), I'm not as alarmed by it.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

As long as it takes, hopefully. He has been overmatched in the NHL.

I am much more concerned that JAD isn't a full time NHLer than Vilardi. Gabe has some definite issues that need to be addressed, its not as though he is sufficient enough to learn on the job - his play is just not good enough yet to keep him up.

Concerned that he's not good enough? Or that he hasn't been spending this time in the NHL instead of AHL?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Move down is probably the best thing that can happen--provided they actually treat him like a scoring line player that needs minutes and don't turn him into Ontario's 3C/4C depth checker--which is unfortunately possible with Tynan, JAD, Turcotte, soonish Byfield...