Is Thornton the most underrated generational talent?

[Quid Pro Clowe]

If he's "generational" is Martin St. Louis a generational talent? Jamie Benn? Daniel or Henrik?

They've all won the art ross (St. Louis twice).

The answer is no. Thornton is awesome, and his career has been amazing. but he's not on the level of Howe, Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid which are undeniable generational talents.

One of those things is not like the other.

Hint: huge difference winning the Art with 87 and never having a single season of 90 pts vs winning with 125 pts and having 2 consecutive seasons with more assists than Benn has ever totaled in pts.

 

[Number8]

All joking aside, when Joe originally came up he had an incredible nasty streak. Had all the makings of a true power forward. Boston had to try and tone him down because he was getting stick related penalties and at least one suspension.

Ultimately, what toned him down was Eric Lindros and an unfortunate haymaker that landed as Joe was losing balance. Broke his face.

Different player after that. Still great skill obviously, but the fire and determination wasn't the same. The sort of happy go lucky dude we all have seen for years now, was not what he started out as.

In my view, and it's only my view, that punch from Lindros cost Joe a Cup or two somewhere. Took out the snarl that, combined with his obviously huge skill, would have truly made him a potentially generational player.

Could have been, maybe. But really, Joe is "just" a true star and first ballot HHOF. Not bad and no sin -- but not to be "generational".

Besides, isn't "generational" meant to to at least infer once in a generation or something close? Ovi and Crosby at the very least say hello.

 

[Candyman]

One of those things is not like the other.

Hint: huge difference winning the Art with 87 and never having a single season of 90 pts vs winning with 125 pts and having 2 consecutive seasons with more assists than Benn has ever totaled in pts.

Scoring in the league was significantly down that year. Benn was outstanding that season.

I'm not suggesting Benn is as good as Thornton, obviously he isn't. But just winning an Art Ross (and the Hart in Thorntons case) doesn't make you generational.

Another way to look at it is this.

If you ask someone that doesn't watch hockey who Joe Thornton is, chances are they have no clue. If you ask someone who Crosby or Ovechkin is, they've probably heard of them. Generational talents transcend the sport.

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

Is Nick Backstrom better then Thronton?

 

[illpucks]

If he's "generational" is Martin St. Louis a generational talent? Jamie Benn? Daniel or Henrik?

They've all won the art ross (St. Louis twice).

The answer is no. Thornton is awesome, and his career has been amazing. but he's not on the level of Howe, Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid which are undeniable generational talents.

St.Louis maybe if he had more size...he won 2 AR with that frame
Sedins maybe if they were one player
Benn no because Crosby put up a gooseegg vs Buffalo...he was suppose to get 5 points.Benn and Tavares passed Sid on Game 82

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

He wasn’t generational...

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Scoring in the league was significantly down that year. Benn was outstanding that season.

I'm not suggesting Benn is as good as Thornton, obviously he isn't. But just winning an Art Ross (and the Hart in Thorntons case) doesn't make you generational.

Another way to look at it is this.

If you ask someone that doesn't watch hockey who Joe Thornton is, chances are they have no clue. If you ask someone who Crosby or Ovechkin is, they've probably heard of them. Generational talents transcend the sport.

I agree with the last part, I just don’t agree with grouping Benn in with Thornton (or the twins). He rightfully won the Ross in a low scoring season, but he’s never reached the level of play offensively the other 3 have, and seems to have less durability than they did.

For reference, Thornton scoring 101 in 02-03 as a 23 yo is throughly more impressive than Benin’s Ross season, imo.

 

[DomBarr]

How does a player who wasn't generational for any year of his career become generational because he's decent at the end of his career?

cause 3 pts in 1 game as a 41 yo on the leafs = generational
anything else about his career is just noise. plus if the 3 pts in 1 game as a 41yo happened on any other team it would just be a great game

 

[CloutierForVezina]

So basically this is HFboards. Because

Players currently in league with 3 or more 100 pt seasons

Evgeni Malkin (106. 109, 113) - HFboards verdict - generational
Sidney Crosby (102, 120, 103, 109, 104, 100) HFboards verdict - generational
Alex Ovechkin (106, 112, 110, 109) HFboards verdict - generational
Connor McDavid (100, 108, 116) HFboards verdict - generational
Joe Thornton (101, 125, 114) HFboards verdict - hahahaaha he sucks. He's not even franchise.

What a weird metric to try to determine if someone is generational. Let's take a look at their career hardware -

Ovechkin: Calder, 1 Art Ross, 3 Harts, 3 Lindsays, 9 Rockets, 1 Conn Smythe, 12 1st+2nd All-Star Teams

Crosby: 2 Art Ross, 2 Harts, 3 Lindsays, 2 Rockets, 2 Conn Smythes, 8 1st+2nd All-Star Teams

McDavid: 2 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 2 Lindsays, 3 1st+2nd All-Star Teams

Malkin: Calder, 2 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 1 Lindsay, 1 Conn Smythe, 3 1st+2nd All-Star Teams

Thornton: 1 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 4 1st+2nd All-Star Teams

Thornton is a fabulous player who has had a great career, but he isn't really close to anyone on this list. Ovechkin, Crosby and McDavid are head and shoulders above everyone else in the league, with Malkin being just on the bubble of generational and probably outside. And even Malkin has an Art Ross, Lindsay and Smythe over Thornton.

Thornton isn't close to being generational. He was the best player in the league maybe once, and even then it was debatable between him and Jagr.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Scoring in the league was significantly down that year. Benn was outstanding that season.

I'm not suggesting Benn is as good as Thornton, obviously he isn't. But just winning an Art Ross (and the Hart in Thorntons case) doesn't make you generational.

Another way to look at it is this.

If you ask someone that doesn't watch hockey who Joe Thornton is, chances are they have no clue. If you ask someone who Crosby or Ovechkin is, they've probably heard of them. Generational talents transcend the sport.

The general public does not know who Crosby and Ovechkin are. That's a terrible way to look at it. People don't know who Gordie Howe, Bobby Orr, or Mario Lemieux are anymore either. It doesn't change that those players were generational.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

What a weird metric to try to determine if someone is generational. Let's take a look at their career hardware -

Ovechkin: Calder, 1 Art Ross, 3 Harts, 3 Lindsays, 9 Rockets, 1 Conn Smythe, 12 1st+2nd All-Star Teams

Crosby: 2 Art Ross, 2 Harts, 3 Lindsays, 2 Rockets, 2 Conn Smythes, 8 1st+2nd All-Star Teams

McDavid: 2 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 2 Lindsays, 3 1st+2nd All-Star Teams

Malkin: Calder, 2 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 1 Lindsay, 1 Conn Smythe, 3 1st+2nd All-Star Teams

Thornton: 1 Art Ross, 1 Hart, 4 1st+2nd All-Star Teams

Thornton is a fabulous player who has had a great career, but he isn't really close to anyone on this list. Ovechkin, Crosby and McDavid are head and shoulders above everyone else in the league, with Malkin being just on the bubble of generational and probably outside. And even Malkin has an Art Ross, Lindsay and Smythe over Thornton.

Thornton isn't close to being generation. He was the best player in the league maybe once, and even then it was debatable between him and Jagr.

Looking at team records and stats post trade, it really wasn’t debatable as to which player was more valuable to their team.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Joe Thornton will go down with Marcel Dionne as one of the greatest players of all time who never won a cup.


If I were to place him among the all-time greats, I guess he's somewhere around where I'd place Hawerchuk, Lafontaine, and Kariya?

 

[CloutierForVezina]

Looking at team records and stats post trade, it really wasn’t debatable as to which player was more valuable to their team.

Sure, and he won the Hart because of it. But I specifically said best player in the league and the NHLPA voted Jagr over Thornton that year as "most outstanding".

At the very least the split Hart/Lindsay decision shows that it very much was debatable.

 

[Habs10025]

Generational Maurice Richard , Jean Beliveau .

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Sure, and he won the Hart because of it. But I specifically said best player in the league and the NHLPA voted Jagr over Thornton that year as "most outstanding".

At the very least the split Hart/Lindsay decision shows that it very much was debatable.

Jagr deserved praise for his season, no doubt. He probably wins all the awards if he and the Rags don’t falter down the stretch, while SJ kept getting points and Cheechoo passed Jags in goals at the same time.

 

[Nylanderthal]

What does generational even mean anymore? Seems like it’s thrown around way too often. “Franchise” and “generational” aren’t the same thing IMO.

This the term is thrown around way too much. Generational usually means one of a kind for the era. We have been blessed in hockey to see Gretzky and Mario at the same time, then Jagr Lidstrom & Hasek, who bled into Sid and ovi now it’s mcdavid and potentially macK and or Matthews. Guys like Jumbo, Messier, Stevie Y, Sakic & Forsberg sit atop the next tier where you have your franchise players. Guys you build around but don’t define an era.

 

[one2gamble]

His peak level is vastly under rated by HF especially considering how much play was missed due to labor issues.

Hes not generational since his game isnt as well rounded as it would need to be for that kind of consideration, I mean really its not even close.

He is one of the best passers to ever play the game, full stop. If he was surrounded by elite or even first line talent his entire career his numbers would be shockingly higher.

For a 3 or 4 year span, he controlled games as well as anyone in in the modern era but his full ice dominance over his career is not long enough be considered more than very good.

 

[Mitchy]

Toronto fans and media- ignore West coast for 15 years.

Older Thornton plays 20 games for leafs- “hey this guy is generational!”

Ah yes, the well known Caps fan is a Leafs fan now.

 

[Critical13]

His peak level is vastly under rated by HF especially considering how much play was missed due to labor issues.

Hes not generational since his game isnt as well rounded as it would need to be for that kind of consideration, I mean really its not even close.

He is one of the best passers to ever play the game, full stop. If he was surrounded by elite or even first line talent his entire career his numbers would be shockingly higher.

For a 3 or 4 year span, he controlled games as well as anyone in in the modern era but his full ice dominance over his career is not long enough be considered more than very good.

This right here is a good post. Fully agreed!

He's not generational, but I do consider his vision and passing skills to be amongst the Crosbys/Malkins/etc. We're talking amongst all time greats, in that regard.

 

[tenken00]

Ah yes, the well known Caps fan is a Leafs fan now.

Penguins fans, come and get your guy. He's drunk again. @Sidney the Kidney

 

[Gregsky99]

We definitely don't hear Drai as "generational".
Thornton isn't really either, although he's at the very top of the next tier.

Drai is 100000% generational*



*only counting players who were born in Germany

 

[nowhereman]

Would it even be possible to be an "underrated generational talent"?

Part of being generational is that you're so damn good, it's impossible to ignore the impact you have every year/game/shift. How does a player who would/should have accomplished significantly more than 99.999% of players in NHL history to fall through the cracks?

 

[Cotton]

The only generational players in league history are Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Lemieux, Ovechkin, Crosby & McDavid. That's it.

Anything more than Wayne, Mario and Bobby is debatable.

 

[Cotton]

No it’s becasue he’s a leaf now. You new around here !? Lol

OP is a Caps fan, and the only one calling Joe Generational.

 

[Hisch13r]

He's not a generational talent so no.