Is Thornton the most underrated generational talent?

[93LEAFS]

No, they're not. Trophies tend to be heavily reliant on either biased opinions from a small group of people, or factors that have nothing to do with a player's actual talent/abilities. It's a really lazy way to judge players, and that's not really the point anyway. It's that people have been inconsistent with whether an aspect of play can make somebody generational.

How often does the Hart trophy voting not come close to reflecting the general sentiment? or Pearson awards which is voted on by the PA?

 

[foggyvisor]

Not saying he is or isn't generational (that term essentially has no meaning anymore), but it's interesting that people are willing to recognize Ovechkin as a "generational player" due to his level of goal-scoring, yet are unwilling to recognize a player as generational due to their level of playmaking.

This is a bad take.

1) Goals are more valuable than assists.

2) Ovechkin led the league in goals 9 times and Thornton led the league in assists 3 times.

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

Hes definately 1 of a kind and a sure fire HOFer... I hope so bad he can win a Cup

 

[Rec T]

Longevity does not equal generational

Long enough & it's multi generational...

****
(back on topic more or less)

To me a 'generation' in hockey is 10-15 years. So a generational player would be one in any given 10-15 years stands head & shoulders above the rest of the league year after year (generally no more than 1-3 players at any one time should even be considered for such a label). Below that you have the superstars, & below that the stars, etc. Joe fits in, and has for most of his career, at the upper end of the star category/lower end of the superstar. Great player, incredible career, 1st ballot HHof, etc ... but ... to call him generational is just silly.

 

[Space umpire]

As for generational talents we commonly hear Crosby Ovi Malkin McDavid maybe Drai

But Jumbo is 41 and is ppg and just became the oldest player in Leafs history to record a 3 point game.

Some people say he's playing with Marner and Matthews but this is the same dude that turned Cheechoo into a superstar. Rewind the clock and he's easily the best talent on that line.

He's a 41 year old and can still can do



There's a strong argument for him being generational in playmaking as Ovi in goal scoring (though Ovi is also great playmaker)

So is he the most underrated generational talent?

Does Denis Savard know he is a generational player for turning Al Secord into a 50 goal scorer.

 

[Video Nasty]

He has significantly fewer assists per game than Crosby. Comparing that to Ovechkin's utter dominance in the goalscoring department, as you did earlier in this thread, is laughable.

I find lack of context laughable.

Thornton’s first season saw him play about 8-10 minutes on average on the 4th line. 55 games right out of the gate that skew the numbers.

It took him a few seasons to develop into the player he became.

He also has over 500 games played past Crosby’s current age skewing his totals back the other way.

He does sit atop the NHL in assists for the decade of the 2000s and sits at 9th for the 2010s despite being 30 when that decade began.

I find nothing wrong with saying he was the best playmaker or at least in the discussion from 2005-2006 through about 2015-2016.

It’s willing ignorance to claim otherwise and point at career totals as the end all be all.

It shouldn’t take away from Crosby for you for Thornton’s passing ability to be compared because we all know that he is the overall far greater package.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Thornton led a 10 year period in scoring so I consider him generational but my definition may be more liberal than some.

 

[illpucks]

One of the reasons he's underrated is that he's not typically a flashy player. It only comes out on rare instances like

 

[razor8]

Sid hasn't played out his 38+ years yet. Posters lament about how amazing Ovi's 65 goal season was but not a peep about Joe's 96 assist season. Laughable? Just proves how underrated he is.

It really surprises you that goals are seen as more important than assists? The only thing that makes Thornton generational in your mind is his assists? Seems a bit weak, but whatever.

He's not underrated just because people don't consider him generational. Jesus, hope you're just trolling.

 

[Ovechkins Wodka]

Does he still have 0 cups? Just checking

 

[illpucks]

It really surprises you that goals are seen as more important than assists? The only thing that makes Thornton generational in your mind is his assists? Seems a bit weak, but whatever.

He's not underrated just because people don't consider him generational. Jesus, hope you're just trolling.

Joe Thornton is a good goal scorer also regardless of totals. He is underrated if he's not considered generational because he's the only player with 3+ 100+ pt seasons currently playing in the league where people on here are laughing at the generational label. That's the definition of underrated because all other current players with 3+ 100+ pt seasons are considered generational here

 

[Dekes For Days]

How often does the Hart trophy voting not come close to reflecting the general sentiment? or Pearson awards which is voted on by the PA?

Just because something is believed by a certain group of people, that doesn't make it true. It probably means they're somewhere up there, but actual award accumulation can be heavily impacted by factors entirely unrelated to a player's talent (which is the discussion).

Though again, this is besides the point. I am discussing under the context of what some people have stated, not whether or not it's true - that Thornton is the best playmaker of his generation. If that is true, it's fairly inconsistent to consider Ovechkin generational, but not Thornton.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Long enough & it's multi generational...

****
(back on topic more or less)

To me a 'generation' in hockey is 10-15 years. So a generational player would be one in any given 10-15 years stands head & shoulders above the rest of the league year after year (generally no more than 1-3 players at any one time should even be considered for such a label). Below that you have the superstars, & below that the stars, etc. Joe fits in, and has for most of his career, at the upper end of the star category/lower end of the superstar. Great player, incredible career, 1st ballot HHof, etc ... but ... to call him generational is just silly.

We agree the longevity does not make him generational

 

[Number8]

This has been a great week.

Threads about how Leafs are likely for SCF.
Threads about how Leafs will win Cup.
Thornton fluffing Matthews with triple trophy hardware talk.
Nylander fluffing Matthews with "he's just picking goalies apart".

It's so easy to see why so many fans across the League root for Leafs to fold in Round 1 or, better yet, miss the playoffs.

If they ever did win the Cup again -- which is by no means a guarantee -- it would be like Charlie Brown finally kicking the field goal. Except a cocky, look at me, Charlie Brown.

 

[93LEAFS]

Just because something is believed by a certain group of people, that doesn't make it true. It probably means they're somewhere up there, but actual award accumulation can be heavily impacted by factors entirely unrelated to a player's talent.

Though again, this is besides the point. I am discussing under the context of what some people have stated, not whether or not it's true - that Thornton is the best playmaker of his generation. If that is true, it's fairly inconsistent to consider Ovechkin generational, but not Thornton.

Except Ovi is considered arguably the best player of his generation with Crosby. Which again, is reflected through what they have won. Thornton isn't.

 

[IceNeophyte]

This has been a great week.

Threads about how Leafs are likely for SCF.
Threads about how Leafs will win Cup.
Thornton fluffing Matthews with triple trophy hardware talk.
Nylander fluffing Matthews with "he's just picking goalies apart".

It's so easy to see why so many fans across the League root for Leafs to fold in Round 1 or, better yet, miss the playoffs.

If they ever did win the Cup again -- which is by no means a guarantee -- it would be like Charlie Brown finally kicking the field goal. Except a cocky, look at me, Charlie Brown.

It's Toronto's world, we're just allowed to live in it because the greatest program ever in history needs teams to beat!

 

[shaner82]

What's generational? Are Crosby and Ovechkin generational? Or is that term pretty much reserved for Gretz, Mario and maybe Orr?

An argument could be made he's in the same tier with Crosby and Ovechkin, although an argument could also be made he's in the next tier below them. Kind of depends on whether Yzerman, Sakic, etc are in the same tier with Crosby and Ovechkin.

 

[snipes]

So basically this is HFboards. Because

Players currently in league with 3 or more 100 pt seasons

Evgeni Malkin (106. 109, 113) - HFboards verdict - generational
Sidney Crosby (102, 120, 103, 109, 104, 100) HFboards verdict - generational
Alex Ovechkin (106, 112, 110, 109) HFboards verdict - generational
Connor McDavid (100, 108, 116) HFboards verdict - generational
Joe Thornton (101, 125, 114) HFboards verdict - hahahaaha he sucks. He's not even franchise.

McDavid should have had 100+ last year if it was a full season (finished with 97 points and still several games left) and likely would have had 100+ again this year in a full 82 season for 5 straight 100 point seasons. I don't believe that has been done since the 1980s/90s.

 

[Waterbuf]

I don't know but I won't be able to sleep until we can accurately label every player.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Except Ovi is considered arguably the best player of his generation with Crosby.

Crosby was a better player than Ovechkin. It's questionable whether Ovechkin was even #2.

 

[Esq]

Heatley wasn't a shark until 09. Why just make things up.

Don’t mind if I do! (Eek)

 

[Icarium]

I find lack of context laughable.

Thornton’s first season saw him play about 8-10 minutes on average on the 4th line. 55 games right out of the gate that skew the numbers.

I was only referring to the seasons from 2005-6 to the present. Sorry for not making that perfectly clear.

I find nothing wrong with saying he was the best playmaker or at least in the discussion from 2005-2006 through about 2015-2016.

It’s willing ignorance to claim otherwise

Good thing that I did nothing of the sort. I was merely refuting the idea that Thornton was head and shoulders above everyone else when it comes to playmaking, the way Ovechkin is when it comes to goalscoring in post-lockout era.

 

[OKR]

What's generational? Are Crosby and Ovechkin generational? Or is that term pretty much reserved for Gretz, Mario and maybe Orr?

An argument could be made he's in the same tier with Crosby and Ovechkin, although an argument could also be made he's in the next tier below them. Kind of depends on whether Yzerman, Sakic, etc are in the same tier with Crosby and Ovechkin.

To me personally, generational means a player that defines a generation. A.k.a the best player of that generation.
-Orr
-Gretzky
-Mario
-Ovie/Crosby
-McDavid

 

[Candyman]

If he's "generational" is Martin St. Louis a generational talent? Jamie Benn? Daniel or Henrik?

They've all won the art ross (St. Louis twice).

The answer is no. Thornton is awesome, and his career has been amazing. but he's not on the level of Howe, Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid which are undeniable generational talents.

 

[Quid Pro Clowe]

Generational isn't a level at a certain trait. It's by being the clear best player of your generation. He's not ahead of Ovi or Crosby or Jagr of forwards he played against. Where he ranks next to Sakic and Yzerman is also highly debatable guys he played against for a few years. Great player, first ballot HHOF, will get his number retired in San Jose. But, not generational.

I would say he’s right there with Yzerman and Sakic, but I agree with the rest. No one considers Adam Oates generational (Thornton was undoubtedly better overall, but the point remains.)

There were quite a few Marleau threads 4 years ago when he first signed over there. Par the course. If he were still in San Jose they’d still be saying he’s done and can’t skate.