Is there a top seven now in international hockey?

[torero]

And number of drafted players is even worse.

OUahou !! it is one of the elements of the bias.

One of the main elements is the conventional wisdom that is soooo strong with anglo-saxons .... that for the draft, if you are part of a known group, you will be skyrocketed to the firsts rounds, if you are of a nationality "deemed" problematic, or small , or ... XXX you go to the rubbish.

The fact is that they select players in a team work. So if they recommend a player that is "out of favor" for etiquette or nationality or ... (XXX : other reason), and it doesn't work, someone may tell the guy in front of anyone : " and you proposed a guy that is .....XXX ??". The other way round it works as well, if you recommended a guy that was YYY, and it doesn't work, you may say : "ahh but he was YYY" !!! ... and people will forgive your "unlucky assessment".

Specially when, like in the drafts, you have 100's of playes at stake, ... . Adding the volatility of the player's progression. It is so high that who knows .... So they will go and study the 1st to the 5th, ... but fom the 3rd round ... they will know very little about the player. Perfect place to choose according to wide maping without considering unknown specificities.

So it is a type of action that you use for risk management in a group. But it kicks in almost systematicaly in structures unless the management is realy good and the scoots are confident in the good management. Even then, the temptation to fall into this trap is serious.

++

Story out of the draft context :
A good Swiss player was Ambuhl, he used to play in Switzerland and was small but physical and very good, he was a physical player. He could have been a second liner in NHL. At the time he was trying to play for the Rangers. so he was in their farm team. Burried in the 3rd or 4th line. You saw him playing , head and shoulders above the others, and the others were like pylons around him ... slow and inefective ... So he was essentialy playing alone ... . Never got recognition. The funny thing was that at the time took place olympic games, and this same Ambuhl, would match up and score against top NHL players against Canada (loss in SO), USA (loss by 2 goals close game) , .... (usual suspects) !!! But do you think that his team would give him a chance to play and adjust with other players that were better ? where he would have a better fit, hence a better yield ?? of course not. So not only they put him asside because he was not fitting their mold, but seeing him perform against top players would not make them question their choice. It was pathetic.

There are other such stories ... but this one was particularly big. unforgetable. It was on the olympic games in Vancouver.

This story actualy served for other Swiss players to prefer stay at home. Rather than go for the NHL where you would be treated unfairly and waste years and maybe never get a real shot at it.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

OUahou !! it is one of the elements of the bias.

One of the main elements is the conventional wisdom that is soooo strong with anglo-saxons .... that for the draft, if you are part of a known group, you will be skyrocketed to the firsts rounds, if you are of a nationality "deemed" problematic, or small , or ... XXX you go to the rubbish.

The fact is that they select players in a team work. So if they recommend a player that is "out of favor" for etiquette or nationality or ... (XXX : other reason), and it doesn't work, someone may tell the guy in front of anyone : " and you proposed a guy that is .....XXX ??". The other way round it works as well, if you recommended a guy that was YYY, and it doesn't work, you may say : "ahh but he was YYY" !!! ... and people will forgive your "unlucky assessment".

Specially when, like in the drafts, you have 100's of playes at stake, ... . Adding the volatility of the player's progression. It is so high that who knows .... So they will go and study the 1st to the 5th, ... but fom the 3rd round ... they will know very little about the player. Perfect place to choose according to wide maping without considering unknown specificities.

So it is a type of action that you use for risk management in a group. But it kicks in almost systematicaly in structures unless the management is realy good and the scoots are confident in the good management. Even then, the temptation to fall into this trap is serious.

++

Story out of the draft context :
A good Swiss player was Ambuhl, he used to play in Switzerland and was small but physical and very good, he was a physical player. He could have been a second liner in NHL. At the time he was trying to play for the Rangers. so he was in their farm team. Burried in the 3rd or 4th line. You saw him playing , head and shoulders above the others, and the others were like pylons around him ... slow and inefective ... So he was essentialy playing alone ... . Never got recognition. The funny thing was that at the time took place olympic games, and this same Ambuhl, would match up and score against top NHL players against Canada (loss in SO), USA (loss by 2 goals close game) , .... (usual suspects) !!! But do you think that his team would give him a chance to play and adjust with other players that were better ? where he would have a better fit, hence a better yield ?? of course not. So not only they put him asside because he was not fitting their mold, but seeing him perform against top players would not make them question their choice. It was pathetic.

There are other such stories ... but this one was particularly big. unforgetable. It was on the olympic games in Vancouver.

This story actualy served for other Swiss players to prefer stay at home. Rather than go for the NHL where you would be treated unfairly and waste years and maybe never get a real shot at it.

There is the same problem with Russian players. Problem is, they still don't get it

 

[torero]

There is the same problem with Russian players. Problem is, they still don't get it

i absolutely got that.

(and not only in the hockey arena by the way ... but we will get out of topic ... and become persona non grata if we elaborate on that )

poka

 

[Ducks76]

The Swiss league is nothing but great. The level of Swiss players is rising. I think Switzerland has little to be concerned about hockey right now, and I think that the league should do its best to be the way it is now, not a farm league for the NHL the way the Swedish or Finn league is.
In any case, I think that no country should be measured by the number of NHL players. The KHL and the NL have plenty of players who are as good as NHL players, yet for any reason they don't play there. It's the same for Swiss and Finn leagues.

Yes maybe! But the Top NHL-Players are far better. I don t think so that a plenty of KHL or other players in Europe has the same level as NHL-Players. I ve the feeling the gap between NHL and the rest is getting bigger and bigger. And yes you should mesasured a country by number of NHL-Players.

 

[Nino33]

Story out of the draft context :
A good Swiss player was Ambuhl, he used to play in Switzerland and was small but physical and very good, he was a physical player. He could have been a second liner in NHL. At the time he was trying to play for the Rangers. so he was in their farm team. Burried in the 3rd or 4th line. You saw him playing , head and shoulders above the others, and the others were like pylons around him ... slow and inefective ... So he was essentialy playing alone ... . Never got recognition. The funny thing was that at the time took place olympic games, and this same Ambuhl, would match up and score against top NHL players against Canada (loss in SO), USA (loss by 2 goals close game) , .... (usual suspects) !!! But do you think that his team would give him a chance to play and adjust with other players that were better ? where he would have a better fit, hence a better yield ?? of course not. So not only they put him asside because he was not fitting their mold, but seeing him perform against top players would not make them question their choice. It was pathetic.

There are other such stories ... but this one was particularly big. unforgetable. It was on the olympic games in Vancouver.

This story actualy served for other Swiss players to prefer stay at home. Rather than go for the NHL where you would be treated unfairly and waste years and maybe never get a real shot at it.

According to Elite Prospects Ambuhl didn't pick up a single point in the 5 games in the 2010 Olympics Andres Ambühl at eliteprospects.com
His 5 points in his Olympic career all came in 2018 when there were no NHLers (previously he'd played 10 Olympic games when NHLers were involved...Ambuhl never scored a single point in those 10 games)

During his year in the AHL he was 16th in scoring on the team (12th among forwards) when he was as you say "playing , head and shoulders above the others, and the others were like pylons around him" - he put up 14 points, the leading scorer on the team that year put up 85 points

Your story seems to be based on bias and not reality

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

Yes maybe! But the Top NHL-Players are far better. I don t think so that a plenty of KHL or other players in Europe has the same level as NHL-Players. I ve the feeling the gap between NHL and the rest is getting bigger and bigger. And yes you should mesasured a country by number of NHL-Players.

Kovalchuk spent a few seasons in Russia recently. Russia was "one point" worse?

 

[Nino33]

Kovalchuk spent a few seasons in Russia recently. Russia was "one point" worse?

When Kovalchuk returned to the NHL Yakupov went back to Russia so the points stayed the same

 

[Hanji]

Beyond the elite level guys, most players are interchangeable; including a ton of players in Europe.
Succeeding in the NHL comes down to opportunity, the right coach, chemistry with line-mates, etc. more than anything.
Vegas is a perfect example; a bunch of 'throw-aways' placed in a different environment were able to make the Cup final.

 

[torero]

According to Elite Prospects Ambuhl didn't pick up a single point in the 5 games in the 2010 Olympics Andres Ambühl at eliteprospects.com
His 5 points in his Olympic career all came in 2018 when there were no NHLers (previously he'd played 10 Olympic games when NHLers were involved...Ambuhl never scored a single point in those 10 games)

During his year in the AHL he was 16th in scoring on the team (12th among forwards) when he was as you say "playing , head and shoulders above the others, and the others were like pylons around him" - he put up 14 points, the leading scorer on the team that year put up 85 points

Your story seems to be based on bias and not reality

As a hockey lover, you know that sometimes stats don't tell everything. Sometimes.

In the case of Ambuhl, it was the case. I could also have taken Roman Wick or Von Arx as exemple.
Look at Roman Wick , he scored 5 point in 5 games ... could have had a comparable trajectory than Zuccarello (rangers) i didn't speak about him. Or look at Weber, Sbisa or even Diaz who where the few players have 0 points, all became regular NHL players. And well established players at a point in time. None of them scored points. (to say that 0 points was not the absolute measure ... )
Severin Blindenbacher ... who played in Texas AHL.
Switzerland at eliteprospects.com
I could also mention julien Sprunger. Martin Gerber was also treated poorly.
Really who watched the games would have talked about Ambuhl. Because the situation was pathetic.

In AHL, with the wolf packs, he was mostly playing on the 3rd 4th lines, with due to stylistic differences, litle cohesion with his line mates ... little chances to succeed. yet he was head and shoulders above. A plumber (and nothing against plumbers ... it is the expression) would have seen it. Had he scored 1 point / game ... the story would have been different. Yet he didn't ... but wasn't promoted with better players neither nor given a decent chance on the 1st or 2nd line. (i am still speaking about AHL) ... not even mentioning NHL. It was Tortorella at the time with the Rangers ... and Tortorella is anti beginners, anti essay. He loves prooven players above all. Which arranged nothing for Ambuhl's case.

And Ambuhl played an important role in the Vancouver Olympic games. He would not have played all 5 games else.

Ambuhl was IMO the best exemple to highlight unfairness with players. But the others i mention here above would also make the case and could be more material for you since stats point toward that. Because probably you didn't watch the games and use the stats to assess my statments. (logical ... as Canadian, or American, you will not remember all Swiss players ... i understand)

 

[Nino33]

Ambuhl was IMO the best exemple to highlight unfairness with players. But the others i mention here above would also make the case and could be more material for you since stats point toward that. Because probably you didn't watch the games and use the stats to assess my statments. (logical ... as Canadian, or American, you will not remember all Swiss players ... i understand)

You said he scored both goals against Canada, I just pointed out that was untrue...your response just shows more irrationality /bias

 

[torero]

You said he scored both goals against Canada, I just pointed out that was untrue...your response just shows more irrationality /bias

i was wrong on that. You are right.

but not on the bottom line. Trust me. (but did you see games ? do you remember it ? ) Ambuhl was small and fast ... way faster than the NA big bodies. Hence the expression pylons. He was a regular goal scorer for the national team ... hence my mistake.

Also he probably was not on the first lines ... having this poor situation in his team. But still incorporated in the national team. He would be a usual scorer ... look at his stats in WC. And in WC you still have some elite NHL players. Ambuhl was a very good player. There is no question on that. And his comming to North America was a big failure. One of the main reasons would be that he would not be considered by the North American hockey junta and would be parked on 3rd and 4th lines.

In these periods, we had Zurich who became European champion beating Magnitogorsk from KHL. Or in preseason 2011, the Rangers would loose 8-4 to Zoug, a regular Swiss team. Swiss hockey was on the rise ... and i speak about the Swiss league ... not number of NHLers.

But i hope you remember these elements .and know what you talk about. because if you only base your says on stats ... you should be aware of the limitations of stats. So i guess you remember.

 

[Ducks76]

i was wrong on that. You are right.

but not on the bottom line. Trust me. (but did you see games ? do you remember it ? ) Ambuhl was small and fast ... way faster than the NA big bodies. Hence the expression pylons. He was a regular goal scorer for the national team ... hence my mistake.

Also he probably was not on the first lines ... having this poor situation in his team. But still incorporated in the national team. He would be a usual scorer ... look at his stats in WC. And in WC you still have some elite NHL players. Ambuhl was a very good player. There is no question on that. And his comming to North America was a big failure. One of the main reasons would be that he would not be considered by the North American hockey junta and would be parked on 3rd and 4th lines.

In these periods, we had Zurich who became European champion beating Magnitogorsk from KHL. Or in preseason 2011, the Rangers would loose 8-4 to Zoug, a regular Swiss team. Swiss hockey was on the rise ... and i speak about the Swiss league ... not number of NHLers.

But i hope you remember these elements .and know what you talk about. because if you only base your says on stats ... you should be aware of the limitations of stats. So i guess you remember.

But this is long time ago(Zurich 2008). No NLA club can compete with NHL. Especially about 82 Games. Yes Zoug beat Rangers in one friendly game. That doesn t say anything. Ambuhl? There are a lot of good players in Europe,they didn t quite make it in NHL. Finland,SwedenCzech and Russia has a lot of good players in Europe like Ambuhl or better.

 

[torero]

But this is long time ago(Zurich 2008). No NLA club can compete with NHL. Especially about 82 Games. Yes Zoug beat Rangers in one friendly game. That doesn t say anything. Ambuhl? There are a lot of good players in Europe,they didn t quite make it in NHL. Finland,SwedenCzech and Russia has a lot of good players in Europe like Ambuhl or better.

oh yes ... that was in 2010 - 11 !! ;-)... 2009 for Zurich i think.

We were speaking about the past. When Switzerland was so underrated while having decent results.

The recognition has improved ... hence this discussion in this thread ... a 7th top nation ??

 

[Peiskos]

If we're talking about MODERN success and not living in the past, the USA has had more WJHC success in the past decade than any other country regardless of whether or not they win gold. That's not an accident. It's a country taking over the top spot.

Russia dominated the sport for a while. Then it was Canada. Now it's USA's turn. Not saying it will last forever, but for now the US is producing better hockey talent than any other country.

You're speaking as if Canada is no longer dominating the sport of Hockey, it currently still is. No offence to you but you are claiming the US is producing better hockey talent than any other country but you continually fail to provide any proof of this. Last time I checked the US still has never produced any player who is of comparable talent to Connor McDavid, heck even Nathan MacKinnon is better than any forward the US currently has. You stress "modern" so ya just go ahead and look at the current stats leaders, young Canadians are heavily represented with hardly any young Americans.

League wide :

4.McDavid(22) 29g, 41a, 70pts
5. MacKinnon(23) 27g, 41a, 68pts
7. Point(22) 30g, 33a, 63pts
8. Marner(21) 19g, 41a, 60pts
10. Monahan(24) 26g, 33a, 59pts

Apart from Gaudreau at #2 with 28g, 44a, 72 points and Tkachuk at #12 with 24g, 32a 56 points where are all these young American players who are supposedly better than what Canada has? Eichel is all the way down in 24th, Larkin is in 34th, Matthews is 51st I mean...your story just doesn't have the facts to back you up.

I would also advise you not to overestimate the value of the World Juniors, please do tell me what ever happened to those 2004, 2010 and 2013 Gold Medal teams? it hasn't translated to the senior level has it? I hate to burst it for ya but there's a high possibility the members of the 2017 US gold team goes on to accomplish nothing either at the mens level.

On top of that the results simply aren't there, no gold medal at the IIHF WC since 1933 (86 years) no Olympic Gold since 1980 (39 years) and not even a single gold medal at the mens level in this current century, the US is actually the only major hockey country that hasn't won a gold medal at the mens level in this century, everyone else has.

Quite frankly the US's record at the mens level is utterly embarrassing and the NHL stats leaders suggests that Canada's young players are much better, it's genuinely perplexing to me how you gather the audacity to claim that the US is "taking over the top spot"

What a joke.