Is there a top seven now in international hockey?

[Elvs]

There's a top 4, a top 5, a top 6, a top 7, a top 8 ... It all comes to how you define it.

I think everyone can agree that Canada is #1, and that USA, Russia and Sweden are interchangeable at #2-4, and that Finland is a strong #5. The Czech's, while not as strong as they were 10-15 years ago, they are still the clear cut #6. Most people will agree that Switzerland has surpassed Slovakia and these two are #7 and #8. I think most would agree that Germany, Denmark and Latvia rounds out a "top 11".

 

[Czechboy]

There's a top 4, a top 5, a top 6, a top 7, a top 8 ... It all comes to how you define it.

I think everyone can agree that Canada is #1, and that USA, Russia and Sweden are interchangeable at #2-4, and that Finland is a strong #5. The Czech's, while not as strong as they were 10-15 years ago, they are still the clear cut #6. Most people will agree that Switzerland has surpassed Slovakia and these two are #7 and #8. I think most would agree that Germany, Denmark and Latvia rounds out a "top 11".

I see a big 5 and any of them could win any of the tournaments. Lots of intangibles that you can't factor for are involved including luck.

 

[Stoat]

This is just my opinion, but I'd like to put teams into groups to define how they rank in best-on-best tournaments. Also these teams in groups are in order I think would have the highest chance in winning best-on-best tournament.

First group: (Favourites to win)
Canada
USA

Second group: (Not as likely to win, but not a surprise)
Sweden
Russia
Finland

Third group: (Would be a big surprise if won)
Czech Republic
Switzerland
Slovakia

Fourth group: (Good teams, but chance of winning is basically none)
Germany
Norway
Latvia
Denmark

So I think that combined the first group has about the same chance of winning as the second group.
So that being said, I could refer to top2, top5, top8 or top12.

 

[llwyd]

This is just my opinion, but I'd like to put teams into groups to define how they rank in best-on-best tournaments. Also these teams in groups are in order I think would have the highest chance in winning best-on-best tournament.

First group: (Favourites to win)
Canada
USA

If you put USA there, you should at least put Sweden too - I see no categorical difference between those two. Probably Canada should be alone in the first group, then USA and Sweden, then Finland and Russia.

 

[Renmar]

This is just my opinion, but I'd like to put teams into groups to define how they rank in best-on-best tournaments. Also these teams in groups are in order I think would have the highest chance in winning best-on-best tournament.

First group: (Favourites to win)
Canada
USA

Second group: (Not as likely to win, but not a surprise)
Sweden
Russia
Finland

Third group: (Would be a big surprise if won)
Czech Republic
Switzerland
Slovakia

Fourth group: (Good teams, but chance of winning is basically none)
Germany
Norway
Latvia
Denmark

So I think that combined the first group has about the same chance of winning as the second group.
So that being said, I could refer to top2, top5, top8 or top12.

I don't agree with the 3rd group, Slovaks are not even close to Czechs and probably not even to Switzerland.

 

[Stoat]

If you put USA there, you should at least put Sweden too - I see no categorical difference between those two. Probably Canada should be alone in the first group, then USA and Sweden, then Finland and Russia.

I don't agree with the 3rd group, Slovaks are not even close to Czechs and probably not even to Switzerland.

I stated that it's my opinion. Make your own groups that make more sense to you.

 

[MattiasSnall]

Best-on-best Tournaments:
Tier 1: Canada
Tier 2: USA and Sweden
Tier 3: Russia and Finland
Tier 4: Czech Republic
Tier 5: Switzerland and Slovakia

World Championship:
Tier 1: Canada, Russia, Sweden
Tier 2: Finland and USA
Tier 3: Czech Republic
Tier 4: Switzerland
Tier 5: Slovakia

U20 World Juniors
Tier 1: Canada, USA, Finland
Tier 2: Russia and Sweden
Tier 3: Czech Republic
Tier 4: Switzerland and Slovakia

U18 World Juniors
Tier 1: USA and Finland
Tier 2: Canada, Sweden and Russia
Tier 3: Czech Republic
Tier 4: Slovakia and Switzerland

Thats how I see the tiers in the different IIHF tournaments based on last 10 years results.

 

[OskarOskarius]

There's still a big gap between Czech Republic and Switzerland.

 

[Frankie Blueberries]

I think Switzerland is a great team to pick as a dark horse for the next Olympics. They could have a top 6 that is comparable to the tier 2 teams listed in this thread.
They will have the following players in their prime:

Hischier
Meier
Baertschi
Niederreiter
Fiala
Josi

Along with other NHL-calibre players like Weber, Sbisa, Andrighetto, Malgin, Mueller, Kukan, and Siegenthaler.

They really just need a #1 goalie to give them a chance to steal some games they shouldn't win (Hiller will probably be their man but he's not good enough now).

 

[torero]

We've been hearing the Swiss are coming for 20 years now. They are currently doing awesome with a silver at World's and now this tourney and maybe a Bronze. However, they only have a dozen or so guys in the NHL 5 of them being 'good to great'. This years draft class doesn't have much. Last years draft class didn't either. They year Nico went first (which was awesome) the next Swiss guy went in the 4th round I believe.

Having said that. Congrats to the Swiss and all their successes. I hope they keep doing well.

The fact is that Switzerland has a very good league ! probably the 3rd best salaries (after NHL and KHL) ... and so someone who plays well will have a hockey carreer.

Some guys would have made the NHL, but they were swallowed by the local league. After having been junior, ahead of them they had AHL/NHL 2 years and maybe NHL at the end ... and AHL at 70'000 per yr while at home a 300'000 /yr contract (lower taxes), with half as many games, a cosier environment , every night sleep at home (Switzerland is small !!) , longer summer, another world. ... so after they go to the CHL (not all go to CHL of course ... only the ones who are willing to try it in NA) they are straight approached by swiss teams with decent salaries. Most don't even try it into the AHL/NHL system when they know they will be border line players.

Some would realy have been NHLers ... but ... this is how it played out.

So this is why you should not have a pletora of Swiss players in AHL. Unlike other countries ... the Swiss players in NA should be good ones. The others are very happy at home.

So don't expect Swiss to die in AHL to have the chance to be in NHL ... it won't happend. This attitude is also perceived as a "Swiss Miss" attitude ... and not something the NHL philosophy does like. The NHL philosophy likes die hard players. And most NHL players (not the stars ... but the border line 3rd 4th lines players) are die hard players.

So if you measure the success of Switzerland by the number of Swiss players in the NHL, you will be mislead IMO.

And yes ... 20 yrs ... it is long to come ... agree with you.

 

[Ducks76]

The fact is that Switzerland has a very good league ! probably the 3rd best salaries (after NHL and KHL) ... and so someone who plays well will have a hockey carreer.

Some guys would have made the NHL, but they were swallowed by the local league. After having been junior, ahead of them they had AHL/NHL 2 years and maybe NHL at the end ... and AHL at 70'000 per yr while at home a 300'000 /yr contract (lower taxes), with half as many games, a cosier environment , every night sleep at home (Switzerland is small !!) , longer summer, another world. ... so after they go to the CHL (not all go to CHL of course ... only the ones who are willing to try it in NA) they are straight approached by swiss teams with decent salaries. Most don't even try it into the AHL/NHL system when they know they will be border line players.

Some would realy have been NHLers ... but ... this is how it played out.

So this is why you should not have a pletora of Swiss players in AHL. Unlike other countries ... the Swiss players in NA should be good ones. The others are very happy at home.

So don't expect Swiss to die in AHL to have the chance to be in NHL ... it won't happend. This attitude is also perceived as a "Swiss Miss" attitude ... and not something the NHL philosophy does like. The NHL philosophy likes die hard players. And most NHL players (not the stars ... but the border line 3rd 4th lines players) are die hard players.

So if you measure the success of Switzerland by the number of Swiss players in the NHL, you will be mislead IMO.

And yes ... 20 yrs ... it is long to come ... agree with you.

That's only half the truth! Let's not forget that as abelow-average player in the NHL you can easily earn 1. 2 or 3 million.

A big mistake of average hockey nations is that they think they're far enough away already. But this is often a mistake! Switzerland still has too few players in the draftpool (year after year). There is still a lot of room for improvement in youth work.

 

[Czechboy]

So if you measure the success of Switzerland by the number of Swiss players in the NHL, you will be mislead IMO.

I get your argument. From the Czech side, we have 30 guys (roughly) but easily at least 10 are never going to be long term NHL Stars (maybe more). They chose that CHL/AHL path you mentioned and are battling for spots every year... Dominik Simon, Tomas Nosek, Tomas Hyka and most of our D come to mind.

But the Swiss doesn't have top players in the KHL, Sweden, Finland or AHL either. There just aren't that many top players. I quickly did a google search for the top 10 in scoring in the Swiss league and 6 of your top 10 scorers are also not Swiss:

National League details - Eurohockey.com

The fact guys aren't being drafted right now is also a bit concerning...

Swiss draft picks in the 2018 NHL Entry Draft

4 in 2018 with highest being Round 4
3 in 2017... Nico at 1 but Round 4 and 5 after that
2 in 2016 ... Round 4 and 7

A lot of Russians choose to stay home for similar reasons, better salaries, don't want to go to AHL etc. But they still have a cupboard full of elite NHL players as well as elite KHL players.

 

[Czechboy]

I think Switzerland is a great team to pick as a dark horse for the next Olympics. They could have a top 6 that is comparable to the tier 2 teams listed in this thread.
They will have the following players in their prime:

Hischier
Meier
Baertschi
Niederreiter
Fiala
Josi

Along with other NHL-calibre players like Weber, Sbisa, Andrighetto, Malgin, Mueller, Kukan, and Siegenthaler.

They really just need a #1 goalie to give them a chance to steal some games they shouldn't win (Hiller will probably be their man but he's not good enough now).

I wouldn't even say darkhorse... just a contender. Having a guy like Josi can be such a big difference maker.

I don't follow closely enough... if you were to say the Top 5 Swiss goalies.. who are they and where are they?

For Czechs I would say Rittich, Mrazek, Neuvirth, Francouz and I think we'd have a huge logjam of AHL/KHL guys for 5th place (Vladar, Vanecek, Korenar, Kovar, Salak). FTR.. I don't think any big 5 nations would be shaking in their boots at our goalie lineup. Even worse, if they were all available, we'd sit the NHL goalie and play the best one from the Extraliga.

 

[Ducks76]

Best-on-best Tournaments:
Tier 1: Canada
Tier 2: USA and Sweden
Tier 3: Russia and Finland
Tier 4: Czech Republic
Tier 5: Switzerland and Slovakia

World Championship:
Tier 1: Canada, Russia, Sweden
Tier 2: Finland and USA
Tier 3: Czech Republic
Tier 4: Switzerland
Tier 5: Slovakia

U20 World Juniors
Tier 1: Canada, USA, Finland
Tier 2: Russia and Sweden
Tier 3: Czech Republic
Tier 4: Switzerland and Slovakia

U18 World Juniors
Tier 1: USA and Finland
Tier 2: Canada, Sweden and Russia
Tier 3: Czech Republic
Tier 4: Slovakia and Switzerland

Thats how I see the tiers in the different IIHF tournaments based on last 10 years results.

This is good! I can signed it.!

 

[garbageteam]

I find this hard to fathom. A teenagers' tournament where the absolute cream of the crop doesn't even take part ranks above a competition where countries assemble their A teams from grown men.

There really is no definitive end-all and be-all of what should represent the textbook "most important tournament" in ice hockey. The WJCs have just become a bit of a cultural institution and holiday past-time in Canada, and I had ranked them based on how much an average Canadian would care to watch it. Part of it was due to the scheduling; annually starting on the day after Christmas, having a marquee event on NYE and then wrapping up the weekend after the New Year's holidays makes for very good prime time TV.

I recall ratings for the WJCs are one of the highest among annual sporting events in the entire country, just below events like the Super Bowl, and SCF (and then, only if it involves a Canadian or marquee American team like Penguins or Capitals. The World Cup will need a few iterations with a proper format to compete with that for provenance and attention.

Ironically, the winning team missed the most players this year (Finland), losing Kotkaniemi, Heiskanen and Jokiharju to NHL duty. However, pretty much all of the competitive countries were out an important eligible player; USA was out Tkachuk, Russia missed Svechnikov, Switzerland didn't have Hischier, Czechs missed Chytil and Canada without Rasmussen, and so in a way the "missing players" sort of balanced themselves out this year among the teams.

 

[kabidjan18]

Ironically, the winning team missed the most players this year (Finland), losing Kotkaniemi, Heiskanen and Jokiharju to NHL duty. However, pretty much all of the competitive countries were out an important eligible player; USA was out Tkachuk, Russia missed Svechnikov, Switzerland didn't have Hischier, Czechs missed Chytil and Canada without Rasmussen, and so in a way the "missing players" sort of balanced themselves out this year among the teams.

No...

 

[Lepardi]

Ironically, the winning team missed the most players this year (Finland), losing Kotkaniemi, Heiskanen and Jokiharju to NHL duty. However, pretty much all of the competitive countries were out an important eligible player; USA was out Tkachuk, Russia missed Svechnikov, Switzerland didn't have Hischier, Czechs missed Chytil and Canada without Rasmussen, and so in a way the "missing players" sort of balanced themselves out this year among the teams.

Jokiharju was there but Vesalainen declined.

Those omissions tend to balance themselves out to some degree but to me they still clearly make it a lesser tournament. If you had a men's event where countries would mostly bring their A teams but Crosby, McDavid, Kane, Matthews, Pettersson, Karlsson, Kucherov, Malkin, Barkov, Rantanen, Pastrnak and Josi wouldn't play cause their NHL teams don't let them, you could say that it all evens out cause every country is missing their best players, but it would still severely hurt the legitimacy of the tournament.

 

[torero]

That's only half the truth! Let's not forget that as abelow-average player in the NHL you can easily earn 1. 2 or 3 million.

A big mistake of average hockey nations is that they think they're far enough away already. But this is often a mistake! Switzerland still has too few players in the draftpool (year after year). There is still a lot of room for improvement in youth work.

Yes ... you make your 300'000 a year or more ... . Lower taxes than in the NA. you end up much better. Really.

In no case they think they are far enough ... they are doing a tremendous job to push professionalism in hockey and to find talents ... And there is a lot to improve. Everyone is aware of that ... this is why in Switzerland, half of the coaches are Swedes or Canadians or Russians ... ! (not Swiss) !

 

[torero]

I get your argument. From the Czech side, we have 30 guys (roughly) but easily at least 10 are never going to be long term NHL Stars (maybe more). They chose that CHL/AHL path you mentioned and are battling for spots every year... Dominik Simon, Tomas Nosek, Tomas Hyka and most of our D come to mind.

But the Swiss doesn't have top players in the KHL, Sweden, Finland or AHL either. There just aren't that many top players. I quickly did a google search for the top 10 in scoring in the Swiss league and 6 of your top 10 scorers are also not Swiss:

National League details - Eurohockey.com

The fact guys aren't being drafted right now is also a bit concerning...

Swiss draft picks in the 2018 NHL Entry Draft

4 in 2018 with highest being Round 4
3 in 2017... Nico at 1 but Round 4 and 5 after that
2 in 2016 ... Round 4 and 7

A lot of Russians choose to stay home for similar reasons, better salaries, don't want to go to AHL etc. But they still have a cupboard full of elite NHL players as well as elite KHL players.

Tks for your reply ...

All these leagues are uninteresting for a Swiss player.
Only KHL would be eventually interesting (but salaries aren't that higher than in Switzerland ...and so nobody wants to go there.
Sweden is interesting as alternative to improve (instead of CHL or AHL) ... salaries are lower !
NA, meaning CHL/AHL/to get into NHL

I am not saying that we are on a powerful uptrend. But we are improving ... year after year. And we still never had so many NHL players than now. for certain.
Switzerland is not a natural hockey nation. Some places are hockey prone because of temperature /mountains ... But hockey is not natural for city regions. (the most populated)
Yet because of the LNA that is doing a good job and delivering a fair hockey, interest is moving into the cities. And more and more kids are playing hockey.
But we have nothing to do with natural hockey nations. (Scandinavia, Russia, Canada, North of USA)

 

[Czechboy]

The WJCs have just become a bit of a cultural institution

The reasons the juniors are so important is advertising. TSN has turned it into an event and good for them for doing so but it is a very flawed tourney in that best players aren't there and it is in Canada every year. I know some will say that is not true but 80% of these tourneys are in Canada or a border town where Canadians show up in droves.

Soccer also has a tonne of U21, U18 tourneys but I don't think Euro's consider those the most important for determining supremacy.

Also, there is no perfect best on best Junior tourney.

U20 - best players don't go because they are in NHL
U18 - US send their best team but Canada does not (in CHL playoffs)
Hlinka - Canada sends their best but US do not

You'll note most U18's are dominated by US and most Hlinka's are dominated by Canada.

3 tourneys and we never have best on best.

World Championships (which is my favourite) are barely watched by Canadians (games are at 10am and 2pm over here) and are missing a lot of the best players.

World Cup of Hockey is a hokey tournament that wasn't really taken seriously at all and ruined by the NHLPA

Best on best Olympics was awesome and that was taken from us!

FTR... I never cared if the NHL went Olympic Ice or Europe went small ice but one of those things needs to happen. I can't think of another major sport where they can't agree on the size of the field? Make it the same everywhere.

 

[Tuoppi]

U18 dominated by US and Finland. Last four years for Finland: Silver, gold, silver, gold.

 

[Lepardi]

Soccer also has a tonne of U21, U18 tourneys but I don't think Euro's consider those the most important for determining supremacy.

Certainly not but it was huge for Sweden when they won the U21 European Championships in 2015. This is the celebration afterwards:



Major football powers who have a realistic chance of winning the men's tournament as well probably don't get as emotional when they win a junior event.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

The fact is that Switzerland has a very good league ! probably the 3rd best salaries (after NHL and KHL) ... and so someone who plays well will have a hockey carreer.

Some guys would have made the NHL, but they were swallowed by the local league. After having been junior, ahead of them they had AHL/NHL 2 years and maybe NHL at the end ... and AHL at 70'000 per yr while at home a 300'000 /yr contract (lower taxes), with half as many games, a cosier environment , every night sleep at home (Switzerland is small !!) , longer summer, another world. ... so after they go to the CHL (not all go to CHL of course ... only the ones who are willing to try it in NA) they are straight approached by swiss teams with decent salaries. Most don't even try it into the AHL/NHL system when they know they will be border line players.

Some would realy have been NHLers ... but ... this is how it played out.

So this is why you should not have a pletora of Swiss players in AHL. Unlike other countries ... the Swiss players in NA should be good ones. The others are very happy at home.

So don't expect Swiss to die in AHL to have the chance to be in NHL ... it won't happend. This attitude is also perceived as a "Swiss Miss" attitude ... and not something the NHL philosophy does like. The NHL philosophy likes die hard players. And most NHL players (not the stars ... but the border line 3rd 4th lines players) are die hard players.

So if you measure the success of Switzerland by the number of Swiss players in the NHL, you will be mislead IMO.

And yes ... 20 yrs ... it is long to come ... agree with you.

The Swiss league is nothing but great. The level of Swiss players is rising. I think Switzerland has little to be concerned about hockey right now, and I think that the league should do its best to be the way it is now, not a farm league for the NHL the way the Swedish or Finn league is.
In any case, I think that no country should be measured by the number of NHL players. The KHL and the NL have plenty of players who are as good as NHL players, yet for any reason they don't play there. It's the same for Swiss and Finn leagues.

 

[torero]

The Swiss league is nothing but great. The level of Swiss players is rising. I think Switzerland has little to be concerned about hockey right now, and I think that the league should do its best to be the way it is now, not a farm league for the NHL the way the Swedish or Finn league is.
In any case, I think that no country should be measured by the number of NHL players. The KHL and the NL have plenty of players who are as good as NHL players, yet for any reason they don't play there. It's the same for Swiss and Finn leagues.

Yes Alessandro ... i agree.
Some years ago, Switzerland reached the silver medal with like 80% of NLA players.

Bigger ice means speedier, which means smaller players. And therefore the selection isn't made by the same basis than NHL. (the standard is changing ... look at the top 5 scorers with Tampa ... all between 5.8 and 6 foot. !! and they are presently leading the NHL by more than 10 points)

Some really good Swiss players never made it to the NHL. Sprunger, Bikov, Wick, ... or some missed while they were essentialy good like Brunner or Ambuhl. (and these players would not be NHL border line players ... would be 2nd lines. Not for nothing that some of these players made some NA stars look like pylons on Olympic or IIHF WC occasions.)

The number of NHL players is a tricky standard to value the level of a nation hockey wise.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

The number of NHL players is a tricky standard to value the level of a nation hockey wise.

And number of drafted players is even worse.