Is the Selke an accurate award?

[MadLuke]

McDavid was significantly better defensively this season than Sidney Crosby - except Crosby somehow managed to get 25 votes, including 2 first place votes.

Maybe but he got scored against more significantly, in absolute term and relatively to the other lines on his team.

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Rust/Crosby/Guentzel had the least goals against for penguins forward at 5v5, Carter had harder deployment obviously, just talking about end result.

Mcdavid, Hyman, only Draisailt got scored more on the Oilers.

 

[catnip]

"Accurate" implies there's an objectively correct answer. If that was true, we wouldn't need a vote.

 

[MadLuke]

The voters keep changing what they're voting for.

That it goes in wave could make a lot of sense, 32 teams if you do not include among good enough scorer criteria you have hundreds of candidates, you need some storyline for a name to pop-up in most voter mind to show up.

The Madden-Lehtinen-Draper, were part of super team that everyone followed a lot and were always in the conference finals or cup finals, dueling with the star forward of the opposite super team they faced all the time, like Carboneau having to face Gretzky or Holik Lindros, those scenario can create a bit of a star, in conversation.

And in that era, goaltender-defense was seen has winning cup, offensive numbers were low.

"Accurate" implies there's an objectively correct answer. If that was true, we wouldn't need a vote.

That a misunderstanding of what objectively correct answer, mean.

We do not know how big is the universe right now, maybe an objectively correct answer do exist that some Aliens race outthere know or maybe the question does not even make sense and we have yet to know that. We make scientist vote for what they think is more likely and go with that for the moment when we talk about how big it is.

 

[Midnight Judges]

There could be a season where Crosby gets a 5th place throwaway vote and you'll make it seem like the crime of the century even when other "offensive-only" players get more votes than him.

Feel free to defend the assertion that Sidney Crosby is a top 5 defensive forward in the NHL.

Where is your evidence?

 

[Midnight Judges]

McDavid and defence don't compute. I don't even like Sid, but Sid is miles better defensively than Connor.

No. He isn't.

McDavid actually had a slightly higher percentage of defensive zone draws than Sidney Crosby.

McDavid also surrendered substantially fewer goals against at ES this season.

McDavid also PK'd a bit too whereas Crosby did not.

McDavid also had more hits, more blocks, and basically the same amount of take-aways as Crosby.

Where is the evidence for Crosby playing defense in '23-24? None of his defenders seem able to find it.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Faceoffs, hits, PK time? What are you a voter? haha - that's a tough look...

This was Crosby's best defensive regular season in a while - maybe his whole career. It was also the most defensive the Pens played as a team since the Johnston administration. Which makes sense, given the state of the roster.

But this is one of those no-win situations when you have an ax to grind or don't know what it means to be good defensively.

There are little to no public stats that would indicate good defensive play. So, no shortcut there. Then if someone takes the time to put some video together of him playing defense, then it's "well, anyone can put together blah blah blah...blah blah"...and then if you post whole games or longer clips than an attention span allows, it's "well, I'm not watching all that"

So, rather than go through all that...it's more approachable to just say "Rabbit Season" to counter your "Duck Season"...

 

[Midnight Judges]

Maybe but he got scored against more significantly, in absolute term and relatively to the other lines on his team.

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

Rust/Crosby/Guentzel had the least goals against for penguins forward at 5v5, Carter had harder deployment obviously, just talking about end result.

Mcdavid, Hyman, only Draisailt got scored more on the Oilers.

You are looking at the wrong year. You entered in 22-23 instead of 23-24.

Crosby's defensive statistics in 23-24 are flat out bad.

By the measures you looked at, Crosby is the second WORST player on his team defensively. WORSE than Malkin in terms of preventing goals against/60 (3.03 for Crosby vs 2.59 for Malkin and 2.77 for McDavid).

 

[Midnight Judges]

Faceoffs, hits, PK time? What are you a voter? haha - that's a tough look...

This was Crosby's best defensive regular season in a while - maybe his whole career. It was also the most defensive the Pens played as a team since the Johnston administration. Which makes sense, given the state of the roster.

But this is one of those no-win situations when you have an ax to grind or don't know what it means to be good defensively.

There are little to no public stats that would indicate good defensive play. So, no shortcut there. Then if someone takes the time to put some video together of him playing defense, then it's "well, anyone can put together blah blah blah...blah blah"...and then if you post whole games or longer clips than an attention span allows, it's "well, I'm not watching all that"

So, rather than go through all that...it's more approachable to just say "Rabbit Season" to counter your "Duck Season"...

The great thing about the "eye test" argument is nobody can ever disprove it. No evidence required. You can say anything....even if all the statistics demonstrate otherwise (and they do).

And if all the truly great defensive players do quite well by these very same metrics (and they do) you can dismiss that as well. Pure coincidence I suppose.

 

[Sol]

I think the Norris is the biggest joke award when you consider players like Karlsson have won it and they can’t play a lick of defense

 

[StoveTopStauffer]

Crosby was never 'good' defensively, that's just made up nonsense Pittsburgh fans tell everyone else as if we've never seen him play in the 18 years he has played. Guy hasn't been trusted to PK a lick, a pretty defense-critical aspect of the game.

 

[Maple Leaf]

all these awards are bogus

 

[MadLuke]

. You entered in 22-23 instead of 23-24.

god it goes too fast...

But even then, McDavid was the Oilers forward that bleed the most goals in 23-24:

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

And up there at preventing shots against, not that dissimilar to Crosby season.

 

[Midnight Judges]

god it goes too fast...

But even then, McDavid was the Oilers forward that bleed the most goals in 23-24:

Player Season Totals - Natural Stat Trick

And up there at preventing shots against, not that dissimilar to Crosby season.

yeah I'm not defending the McDavid vote aside from the fact that it's exponentially more defensible than the 25 votes Crosby got - which are dictatorship caliber propaganda.

My ballot votes are going to penalty killing 3rd liners who play shutdown roles.

 

[The Nuge]

Most of the bad votes come from Toronto/Canadian teams writers and as such players on those teams unfairly get votes. No way is Matthews a top 3 defensive forward in the NHL. Connor and Leon also get votes a good amount of the time, and they play no defence at all.

That’s not remotely true. They were definitely inconsistent when they were younger, but not anymore. Just look at Leon in the playoffs this year. He’s been a beast without the puck

 

[Michael Farkas]

The great thing about the "eye test" argument is nobody can ever disprove it. No evidence required. You can say anything....even if all the statistics demonstrate otherwise (and they do).

And if all the truly great defensive players do quite well by these very same metrics (and they do) you can dismiss that as well. Pure coincidence I suppose.

The "eye test" is extremely disprovable. There is no more data points out there than video. It's the most prominent thing.

Now, of course...everyone can count, but not everyone can identify some of the subtleties of defensive play. But that doesn't mean the work isn't worthwhile. Stats are an attempted shorthand - some more useful than others.

 

[guzzy]

McDavid was significantly better defensively this season than Sidney Crosby - except Crosby somehow managed to get 25 votes, including 2 first place votes.

No he wasn't. How did you even come up with that?

 

[Buck Naked]

No he wasn't. How did you even come up with that?

Every single available stat says so. 592 players played more than 500 minutes 5v5 this past season. Crosby was 574th in GA/60. The Penguins bled goals when he was on the ice. 552nd in xGA/60. Bled chances too. What's he doing so great if he can't prevent the opponents from scoring or creating chances?

 

[My3Sons]

Every single available stat says so. 592 players played more than 500 minutes 5v5 this past season. Crosby was 574th in GA/60. The Penguins bled goals when he was on the ice. 552nd in xGA/60. Bled chances too. What's he doing so great if he can't prevent the opponents from scoring or creating chances?

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

It has the most questionable nominees but by and large doesn't miss with the actual winner

 

[Buck Naked]

Late 90s and early 2000s, that was actually my voice mail message.

 

[My3Sons]

Late 90s and early 2000s, that was actually my voice mail message.

When you have a moment check out the YouTube video where he's on a talk show with the stars of the old sitcom Two Broke Girls and he records a personalized version for one of them. George is the single greatest character in the history of scripted comedy in my view.

 

[Buck Naked]

When you have a moment check out the YouTube video where he's on a talk show with the stars of the old sitcom Two Broke Girls and he records a personalized version for one of them. George is the single greatest character in the history of scripted comedy in my view.

OMG, I LOVE IT!!! Never seen that one before.

And I totally agree with you. He's been the face of my online persona since the internet became a thing.

 

[My3Sons]

OMG, I LOVE IT!!! Never seen that one before.

And I totally agree with you. He's been the face of my online persona since the internet became a thing.

My middle son is 23. He loved Curb. Preferred it over Seinfeld. By and large thought Seinfeld was dated and didn't translate in today's world. Even he will admit that George is the pinnacle of comedy.

 

[barkovcanfinnish]

Any award in the world that is voted on has “innacuracies”.

 

[Playmaker09]

One thing that gets weighed way too heavily with the defensive awards is expected results. (xGA, CF%)

This is a single season award. We don't award the art ross or rocket to the players with the most expected goals/points.
If the stats show you got unlucky, then you got unlucky. It's not your year. What actually happened on the ice matters more than what should have happened.