Is Patrik Elias worthy to get to HHOF?

[Rabid Ranger]

Exactly no point using the old metrics and old standards if they aren't being used anymore. people can yell and moan about how great the past was but the HoF has moved on whether some people like it or not.

Who is to say they aren't? These voters are still looking for many of the same benchmarks they always have. Elias checks many of those boxes (1000 points, strong playoff and international performer, etc.) which is why he will likely get into the HHOF eventually.

 

[Xirik]

Who is to say they aren't? These voters are still looking for many of the same benchmarks they always have. Elias checks many of those boxes (1000 points, strong playoff and international performer, etc.) which is why he will likely get into the HHOF eventually.

I'm responding to the people in this thread that say he won't though.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Top 10 in League scoring 3 times. Over 1000 points in his career playing across two of the most dire scoring environments the league has seen.

Yes. Next question.

I think a lot of people forget this looking back at his scoring.

It was DPE.

 

[Jason MacIsaac]

See above. Absolutely nobody (including clear-thinking Devils fans) seriously thought of Elias as equal to Bergeron or Kopitar during his career. Selke votes may not be the most accurate, but they aren’t pulled out of a hat either. If a guy is getting close to zero Selke votes over a long period of time it’s a safe bet that he just isn’t that guy.

Likewise, you’d have been hard pressed to find anyone who felt they were watching a HHOF career when he was on the ice. This argument only came up when he was being honored in retirement, same as it did for Pavelski this year.

The attempt to over-sell Elias as a “hidden” Selke winner is characteristic of revisionist arguments for weak candidates. It’s a lot like the “triple gold” case for Mogilny, which ignores that he was a total passenger on great teams. In this case we’re just going to ignore that Elias was never considered a top-tier defensive forward, and pretend that having a high CF%rel is the same thing as being a multi-Selke winner.

First off, if they were to go back and revote the Selke given what they know now with advanced metrics, Elias would have had many many years in the top 10 for Selke vote, especially when he was playing center.

Number two, just because he isn't being compared to the elite "shutdown centers" of this era doesn't mean he wasn't elite in his own right as a winger/center later in his career. NJ used Elias against the opposing team's top line for pretty much the last 8 years of his career so having possession numbers around 60% in his 30s speaks to how strong his two way game was.

Nobody is saying Elias should have been a Selke winner, nor does he need to be to be considered elite. They are saying he was a top 10 defensive forward in the NHL for a good chunk of his career.

 

[dgibb10]

For me, Elias is as basically close to the fence as one can be, while still being on the wrong side. He may as well be the bar itself.

If Elias is the bar why do they keep letting in worse players?

 

[crazy8888]

Yes...Patrik Elias getting into the Hall of Fame would be setting the bar down a notch especially compared to others in there.

The poster was actually being nice. Yea it would set the bar way, way down. I always liked Elias but the hof conversation is crazy.

 

[dgibb10]

The poster was actually being nice. Yea it would set the bar way, way down. I always liked Elias but the hof conversation is crazy.

Why?

They let the sedins in

 

[Toby91ca]

I think a lot of people forget this looking back at his scoring.

It was DPE.

Top 10 in scoring 3 times in a career is a good point to put on your HHOF application?

 

[KrisLetAngry]

Top 10 in scoring 3 times in a career is a good point to put on your HHOF application?

Being a selke level defender all your career and scoring at a high level with 400 goals attached is a solid application.

 

[dgibb10]

Being a selke level defender all your career and scoring at a high level with 400 goals attached is a solid application.

pair of cups too

 

[crazy8888]

Why?

They let the sedins in

Joke or serious?

Both of the Sedins we considered top players in the league during their primes. Both won individual awards. You are comparing them to a player who does not have any awards and at best was only considered the best forward on his own team for a period of time.

With all of the above being said, in my opinion Sedins should not have made it to the hof either. Personally i cant stand the fact that hof is diluted by the simple fact that every year there must be players voted in.

Also, these discussions about hof worthiness just makes you inadvertently crap on good players. I liked Elias and i liked the Sedins but hof should be reserved for generational players only. I dont care if it takes 10 years for one or two players to get voted in. That's the whole point of it being a hof.

 

[Wierzbowski426]

Joke or serious?

Both of the Sedins we considered top players in the league during their primes. Both won individual awards. You are comparing them to a player who does not have any awards and at best was only considered the best forward on his own team for a period of time.

With all of the above being said, in my opinion Sedins should not have made it to the hof either. Personally i cant stand the fact that hof is diluted by the simple fact that every year there must be players voted in.

Also, these discussions about hof worthiness just makes you inadvertently crap on good players. I liked Elias and i liked the Sedins but hof should be reserved for generational players only. I dont care if it takes 10 years for one or two players to get voted in. That's the whole point of it being a hof.

So you are still operating in a fantasy land where the HOF hasn't been diluted. There are quite a few lesser players than Elias already in, as thats the standard in reality, he should get in.

 

[AfroThunder396]

There's really no argument for inducting Hossa and Alfredsson but not Elias.

He hit +400 goals and +100 points in a very low scoring era on a defensive team, lead an entire decade in playoff points, and was the leading scorer on 2 Cup teams with two more Finals appearances. He was also criminally underrated on the defensive side, and since the league already had Jere Lehtinen I suppose they were already at their quote for defensively great European wingers.

Lou Lamoreiello spent decades insisting that his players were replaceable parts in a well-oiled machine, and the Canadian media that demonized """The Trap""" were all to happy to indulge him. Lou's obsession with his team's image really hurt the reputation of NJ's star players from that era, and many still haven't recovered.

 

[Toby91ca]

Being a selke level defender all your career and scoring at a high level with 400 goals attached is a solid application.

He was not a selke level defender though.....edit, even if he was, I was simply commenting on someone suggesting he finished top 10 in scoring 3 times in his career and people forget that...they just look at lower scoring totals and forget some of the low scoring years he was part of.....my point was that finishing top 10 in scoring only 3 times is actually a good argument to NOT be a HHOFer, not the opposite.

But yeah, I think he's very borderline and if I had to vote, he wouldn't get my vote. On the selke calibre side, I don't see that at all.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

If he gets in he won't be the worst player in there, but that doesn't mean he should be in

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

elias is an easy hall of famer for me. i mean, if it was my hall then no, but my bar is way way higher than what the actual hall of fame’s is.

people will point to the extra 100-odd career pts, or more seasons above an X pts threshold or within pt/game range, but i really don’t think there’s any daylight between elias and hossa or alfredsson, and in fact i don’t know that i wouldn’t have elias as the best player among them. in a hall where, say, michel goulet was an uncontroversial hall of famer, or steve shutt, bill barber, etc when they were inducted, objectively there should be absolutely nothing keeping elias out.

that said, perception works against him. part of this is his best offensive seasons were in some of the lowest scoring ever, and he had some badly timed injuries and his 2000 holdout. he also had a deep slump during his peak where if he had been consistent (like alfredsson and hossa were, tbf) i don’t think anybody would be looking back and asking, hey wait a minute was patrik elias actually ever elite? and to be fair that was a bad scoring slump: two full regular seasons, 2002 and 2003, one first round loss in 2002 where he was a pt/game and led the series in scoring but scored zero ES pts in a series decided by four one-goal losses, and three rounds of the 2003 cup run where he had only six pts before pulling it together to lead the finals in scoring) but i think he does make up for that it over the course of his career.

i’m not one for woulda, coulda, shouldas, so i’m not pretending here that he didn’t have that long slump in his peak, didn’t lose a year and a half to the lockout and hep C, and didn’t play too many years on defensive devils teams. but i will say that perception of how good elias was when he was playing at an elite level would have been much more apparent without the other mitigating factors that led to him being underrated.

and no, he wasn’t remotely close to a selke-level guy, although his intangible was as a rare swiss-army knife star who could play any forward position and any style you needed while always being a plus player on his own side of the puck.

 

[KevinRedkey]

If Elias is the bar why do they keep letting in worse players?

Well, I'm not the one who decides, nor do I personally know who does - so you'll have to ask them.

 

[tarheelhockey]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1811866314937684320

Elias was a world class defensive forward. He was very much a selke caliber forward with excellent production to boot.

Again this is taking a jfresh player card and extrapolating that the player should have won a Selke — despite not having a single top-3 Selke vote (not a top-3 voting total, but not one top-3 vote on a ballot) during that time frame, not even from the NJ representatives.

Great for him that he played well in the possession game. He was a very good player. That is not the same thing as being a Kopitar or Bergeron level two-way force.

First off, if they were to go back and revote the Selke given what they know now with advanced metrics, Elias would have had many many years in the top 10 for Selke vote, especially when he was playing center.

That’s the thing, though… top 10 for Selke vote still isn’t a HHOF credential.

Take the guy in my avatar for example. He actually won two Selkes, while scoring 450 goals and nearly 1200 points, and being the 1C and captain of a Cup winner. Still isn’t in the Hall. The bar is higher than that.

And to be clear — advanced metrics did exist during the period of time that Elias played center and had these great metrics, hence the jfresh card quoted above. Those metrics did not get him Selke votes.

Number two, just because he isn't being compared to the elite "shutdown centers" of this era doesn't mean he wasn't elite in his own right as a winger/center later in his career. NJ used Elias against the opposing team's top line for pretty much the last 8 years of his career so having possession numbers around 60% in his 30s speaks to how strong his two way game was.

I agree that he had a strong two-way game, but not as strong as guys who get into the HHOF on that basis.

Nobody is saying Elias should have been a Selke winner, nor does he need to be to be considered elite. They are saying he was a top 10 defensive forward in the NHL for a good chunk of his career.

There’s a guy in this thread saying he was as good as Kopitar/Bergeron/Toews, and several saying he was “Selke caliber” which implies he was as good as the Selke winners. That’s the over-sell I’m talking about. These folks know that “top-10 defensive forward for part of his career” is closer to the truth, and that it doesn’t make a compelling case for HHOF induction.

 

[hamzarocks]

I dont know if hes a hall of famer when people doubt guys like the below will be getting in:

Eric Staal, Ryan Getzlaf, Phil Kessel, Blake Wheeler, John Tavares, Claude Giroux

Most of those guys I would say are hetter players at their peaks + primes then Elias and a lot of people say most of those names arent hall of famers (besides maybe Getzlaf

If he gets in will likely need to wait quite sometime

 

[dgibb10]

I dont know if hes a hall of famer when people doubt guys like the below will be getting in:

Eric Staal, Ryan Getzlaf, Phil Kessel, Blake Wheeler, John Tavares, Claude Giroux

Most of those guys I would say are hetter players at their peaks + primes then Elias and a lot of people say most of those names arent hall of famers (besides maybe Getzlaf

If he gets in will likely need to wait quite sometime

Anyone saying Blake Wheeler or Phil Kessel was better than Patrick Elias needs to get their f***ing head checked

 

[hamzarocks]

Anyone saying Blake Wheeler or Phil Kessel was better than Patrick Elias needs to get their f***ing head checked

Those are just names

Joe Pavelski, Backstrom are other guys who he will compete with that had high end peaks or lengthy strong prime years to make argument to be better HHOF case than Elias

There are other two way guys who Elias will compete with in Kopitar, Toews, Bergeron, Zetterberg (not sure if hes made it yet)

Then first ball clear cut guys like Crosby, OV, Malkin, Stamkos, Thornton.

The longer it goes since hes been retired the harder itll be for him to be a fringe induction.

Moginly still hasnt made it yet (partially politics).

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Again this is taking a jfresh player card and extrapolating that the player should have won a Selke — despite not having a single top-3 Selke vote (not a top-3 voting total, but not one top-3 vote on a ballot) during that time frame, not even from the NJ representatives.

I never said he should win a Selke, but to act like Selke voting isn't a reputational award is disingenuous. But he was absolutely a world class defensive player while being a top scoring winger in the game.

HIs underlying numbers were excellent well into his 30s.

Great for him that he played well in the possession game. He was a very good player. That is not the same thing as being a Kopitar or Bergeron level two-way force.

He didn't just "play well" in the possession game. You seem to be deliberately underselling him at this point.

 

[Russian_fanatic]

Patrik Elias over 1200 games has scored 400 goals, and 1000 points...

While being the best forward on two cup winners, and having selke caliber two way play.

It's an easy yes for me.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

I always likened him to being a Hossa caliber player.

Obviously most of you disagree with this, but I've always revered him on that level.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I never said he should win a Selke, but to act like Selke voting isn't a reputational award is disingenuous. But he was absolutely a world class defensive player while being a top scoring winger in the game.

HIs underlying numbers were excellent well into his 30s.

Of course the Selke is a reputational award. If we were talking about a guy who finished 4th a dozen times, that would be one thing. One could argue that he was just a lower-profile player who deserved but didn’t get the top-3 votes against guys with better reps.

But most seasons he didn’t get any votes at all, meaning not one voter felt he was even in the top 5. Those voters included at least five members of the New Jersey chapter, year after year. And that’s to say nothing of the broader NY regional media who saw him routinely, or the dozens of writers in his division. Not one vote from any of them… that tells you something. He was not considered a top-5 Selke contender, and the idea that he was that level of player is revisionism based on “underlying numbers”.

He didn't just "play well" in the possession game. You seem to be deliberately underselling him at this point.

I’ve gone out of my way in several posts to say that he was a very good player, important to the Devils, important to Czech hockey. But the bar for HHOF induction is higher.