Is Patrik Elias worthy to get to HHOF?

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Regal

Registered User
Mar 12, 2010
26,021
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Vancouver
Except that it doesn't?

Patrick Elias

GP 1240
Goals 208
Assists 617
PTS 1025

Mats Sundin

GP 1346
Goals 564
Assists 785
Points 1349

Sundin was almost always close to PPG or over, Elias had numerous seasons where he wasn't even close. Sundin was easily the better player and he also had a much better international career, if you take away Elias cups wins it's not even close.

Elias also started in the DPE whereas Sundin started in the high scoring early 90s. Their stats from Elias' first year as a top line player (99-00) to Sundin's last a top line player (07-08) look like this:

Elias:
GP 579
G 227 (0.39)
A 309 (0.53)
PTS 536 (0.93)

Sundin
GP 612
G 259 (0.42)
A 347 (0.57)
PTS 606 (0.99)

Sundin was healthier and had the longer career as a top line player, but their primes largely overlapped and they were pretty close at the time. Elias also has a much better playoff record
 

leaffaninvancouver

formerly in Victoria
Jan 11, 2012
13,819
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Elias also started in the DPE whereas Sundin started in the high scoring early 90s. Their stats from Elias' first year as a top line player (99-00) to Sundin's last a top line player (07-08) look like this:

Elias:
GP 579
G 227 (0.39)
A 309 (0.53)
PTS 536 (0.93)

Sundin
GP 612
G 259 (0.42)
A 347 (0.57)
PTS 606 (0.99)

Sundin was healthier and had the longer career as a top line player, but their primes largely overlapped and they were pretty close at the time. Elias also has a much better playoff record

Sundin was almost always PPG even in the dead puck era I think there were 2-3 seasons where has wasn't within 5 points. Elias can't even get more points or ppg using your criteria where Sundin is judged playing when he's 28-29 to 35-36 and Elias is judged when he's 22-23 to 29-30.

If you can't outproduce someone in their early thirties while you're in your early twenties you're not a better player.
 

McRpro

Cont. without supporting.
Aug 18, 2006
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Using the "He's better than xxxx, and he's in the HoF" defense, then yes he deserves it. IMO though players like Elias and a bunch of others shouldn't be in it.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,376
15,393
Here's a post I made on this topic in 2013. The data is current through 2013.

====

Elias is 7th in scoring from 1998 to 2012 (behind Thornton, Iginla, Jagr, Selanne, Alfredsson and Hossa), all of whom will likely be in the Hall of Fame. The players ranked 9th (St. Louis), 11th (Lidstrom), 13th (Sakic) and 14th (Recchi) will all be in the Hall of Fame too. Link.

The only others players in the top fifteen in scoring over the course of Elias's career are Whitney, Lecavalier, Marleau and Kovalev. (Coincidentally, these are the only players during that period to score more than 800 points). There are several reasons why there's a clear separation between Elias and the other four:

- Elias spent most of his career on a defense-first, low-scoring team, which suppressed his offensive statistics. (I know there are some exceptions to this - such as 2001 when the Devils were the league's highest scoring team).

- Elias was more of an offensive catalyst, leading his team seven times (2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2011), more than any of the other players [Whitney (1999, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2012), Kovalev (2002, 2006, 2008, 2009), Lecavalier (2000, 2007 2008), Marleau (2001, 2004, 2011)].

- Elias is better than any of the other five defensively (by a wide margin over Kovalev and Lecavalier, and smaller but clear margin over Marleau and Whitney).

- Elias has a higher ppg in the playoffs (0.77) than Marleau (0.68) and Whitney (0.51). He's only slightly behind Kovalev (0.81 ppg; over more games (162-123), with Kovalev playing more than one-third of his PO games during/prior to the high-scoring era ending in 1996 vs none for Elias) and Lecavalier (0.83 ppg; but over significantly more games (162-63) with Lecavalier playing none past age 30).

- I realize that this is partially a product of playing on a strong team, but Elias was a top ten playoff scorer as many times as the other four combined (T-2nd, T-3rd, T-10th for Elias; T-6th, T-6th for Lecavalier; 6th for Kovalev; never in top ten for Marleau and Whitney).

- Elias is the only one who was a first-team all-star (Kovalev and Lecavalier were a second team all-star once each).

- All the players except Whitney placed in the top ten in Hart voting once (Lecavalier 4th, Elias 6th, Kovalev 8th, Marleau 10th).

- Elias was in the top ten in scoring as many times as the other four players combined (3rd, 6th, T-10th for Elias; 3rd, T-6th for Lecavalier; T-4th for Kovalev; never in top ten for Marleau and Whitney). Elias placed in the top twenty four times (as many times as Kovalev, and more than each of the others).

- None of these players have exceptional resumes in terms of international play. Lecavalier had the most dominant performance (leading scorer on the gold medal Canadian team in 2004, including scoring the OT goal to eliminate the Czechs in the semi-final) but I don't think this moves his significantly ahead of Elias (who scored a strong 5 points in 5 games that tournament, and had three trips to the Olympics).

- I realize this analysis exactly coincides with Elias's career (excluding the 18 games he played in 1996 and 1997, plus what has been a very good start to 2013). Marleau and Lecavalier entered the NHL in 1998 and 1999, respectively, so all of their careers are considered. This excludes 121 points in 200 games in a high-scoring era for Whitney which, all things considered, doesn't help him much. Kovalev adds 215 points in 315 games, which gives him a clear edge in longevity, but not enough to overcome Elias' other advantages.

- I realize that this is a minor point, but aside from Marleau all of the players have been fairly similar in terms of health (Marleau has averaged 80 games per season, Whitney 74, Elias 73, Lecavalier 71, Kovalev 71).

I think Elias deserves to be in the Hall of Fame and has put enough distance ahead of Lecavalier, Kovalev, Marleau and Whitney that the line should be drawn after the Czech, and before the others.
 

Auston Marlander

I was in the pool!!
Nov 3, 2011
13,795
8,382
Toronto
I'm obviously biased but I would say yes, he deserves it. The guy put up very respectable numbers despite playing with - and 100% buying into - a very defense-focused system. His vision, hockey sense, and scoring ability was so much fun to watch.

My guess is it takes some time, but that he does eventually get in.

The hall of respectably good. Has a nice ring to it.
 

Nocashstyle

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May 27, 2009
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Here's a post I made on this topic in 2013. The data is current through 2013.

====

Elias is 7th in scoring from 1998 to 2012 (behind Thornton, Iginla, Jagr, Selanne, Alfredsson and Hossa), all of whom will likely be in the Hall of Fame. The players ranked 9th (St. Louis), 11th (Lidstrom), 13th (Sakic) and 14th (Recchi) will all be in the Hall of Fame too. Link.

The only others players in the top fifteen in scoring over the course of Elias's career are Whitney, Lecavalier, Marleau and Kovalev. (Coincidentally, these are the only players during that period to score more than 800 points). There are several reasons why there's a clear separation between Elias and the other four:

- Elias spent most of his career on a defense-first, low-scoring team, which suppressed his offensive statistics. (I know there are some exceptions to this - such as 2001 when the Devils were the league's highest scoring team).

- Elias was more of an offensive catalyst, leading his team seven times (2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2007, 2011), more than any of the other players [Whitney (1999, 2002, 2003, 2007, 2009, 2012), Kovalev (2002, 2006, 2008, 2009), Lecavalier (2000, 2007 2008), Marleau (2001, 2004, 2011)].

- Elias is better than any of the other five defensively (by a wide margin over Kovalev and Lecavalier, and smaller but clear margin over Marleau and Whitney).

- Elias has a higher ppg in the playoffs (0.77) than Marleau (0.68) and Whitney (0.51). He's only slightly behind Kovalev (0.81 ppg; over more games (162-123), with Kovalev playing more than one-third of his PO games during/prior to the high-scoring era ending in 1996 vs none for Elias) and Lecavalier (0.83 ppg; but over significantly more games (162-63) with Lecavalier playing none past age 30).

- I realize that this is partially a product of playing on a strong team, but Elias was a top ten playoff scorer as many times as the other four combined (T-2nd, T-3rd, T-10th for Elias; T-6th, T-6th for Lecavalier; 6th for Kovalev; never in top ten for Marleau and Whitney).

- Elias is the only one who was a first-team all-star (Kovalev and Lecavalier were a second team all-star once each).

- All the players except Whitney placed in the top ten in Hart voting once (Lecavalier 4th, Elias 6th, Kovalev 8th, Marleau 10th).

- Elias was in the top ten in scoring as many times as the other four players combined (3rd, 6th, T-10th for Elias; 3rd, T-6th for Lecavalier; T-4th for Kovalev; never in top ten for Marleau and Whitney). Elias placed in the top twenty four times (as many times as Kovalev, and more than each of the others).

- None of these players have exceptional resumes in terms of international play. Lecavalier had the most dominant performance (leading scorer on the gold medal Canadian team in 2004, including scoring the OT goal to eliminate the Czechs in the semi-final) but I don't think this moves his significantly ahead of Elias (who scored a strong 5 points in 5 games that tournament, and had three trips to the Olympics).

- I realize this analysis exactly coincides with Elias's career (excluding the 18 games he played in 1996 and 1997, plus what has been a very good start to 2013). Marleau and Lecavalier entered the NHL in 1998 and 1999, respectively, so all of their careers are considered. This excludes 121 points in 200 games in a high-scoring era for Whitney which, all things considered, doesn't help him much. Kovalev adds 215 points in 315 games, which gives him a clear edge in longevity, but not enough to overcome Elias' other advantages.

- I realize that this is a minor point, but aside from Marleau all of the players have been fairly similar in terms of health (Marleau has averaged 80 games per season, Whitney 74, Elias 73, Lecavalier 71, Kovalev 71).

I think Elias deserves to be in the Hall of Fame and has put enough distance ahead of Lecavalier, Kovalev, Marleau and Whitney that the line should be drawn after the Czech, and before the others.


Excellent post! I also believe that Elias was the leading playoff scorer in a 10 year span...can anyone confirm this?
 

Its a Trap

Yes I’m still here to piss you off
Except that it doesn't?

Patrick Elias

GP 1240
Goals 208
Assists 617
PTS 1025

Mats Sundin

GP 1346
Goals 564
Assists 785
Points 1349

Sundin was almost always close to PPG or over, Elias had numerous seasons where he wasn't even close. Sundin was easily the better player and he also had a much better international career, if you take away Elias cups wins it's not even close.
He had a much better international career? One gold medal? You said Elias has no individual hardware. Neither does Sundin. So because he was a PPG player that didn't win anything he's good for the hall but Elias, an integral piece and leader on Cup winning teams isn't because he only scored 1000 points on a defensive minded team? Good argument.
 

leaffaninvancouver

formerly in Victoria
Jan 11, 2012
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8,328
He had a much better international career? One gold medal? You said Elias has no individual hardware. Neither does Sundin. So because he was a PPG player that didn't win anything he's good for the hall but Elias, an integral piece and leader on Cup winning teams isn't because he only scored 1000 points on a defensive minded team? Good argument.

Hey if you want to further dilute the hall of fame go for it, whose he up against his first year? Let's see how he stacks up.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,376
15,393
Excellent post! I also believe that Elias was the leading playoff scorer in a 10 year span...can anyone confirm this?

Thanks! Yes, that's correct. From 2000 to 2010 (eleven calendar years, but ten seasons thanks to the lockout), Elias was 1st in playoff scoring. Of the 84 players who played in 70+ games, Elias was 5th in points per game (behind only Forsberg, Sakic, Sundin and Zetterberg).
 

Regal

Registered User
Mar 12, 2010
26,021
15,764
Vancouver
Sundin was almost always PPG even in the dead puck era I think there were 2-3 seasons where has wasn't within 5 points. Elias can't even get more points or ppg using your criteria where Sundin is judged playing when he's 28-29 to 35-36 and Elias is judged when he's 22-23 to 29-30.

If you can't outproduce someone in their early thirties while you're in your early twenties you're not a better player.

I didn't say he was better. But they're not far apart and these actually include Sundin's best seasons relative to the league and on a team that was very offensive oriented. Sundin was generally seen as an easy Hall of Famer, if on the lower end (not among the best in the league types). Elias wasn't so far apart to think he couldn't make the cutoff as well.
 

leaffaninvancouver

formerly in Victoria
Jan 11, 2012
13,819
8,328
I'm not sure disparaging Sundin's international career will help your argument. 95 points in 79 games is hard to match.

In case you were curious Elias has 33 points in 40 games of international play. If you want to get really finicky and just count best on best.

Elias 13 games and 7 points vs Sundin 16 games and 20 points he also played in less Olympic tournaments.

They aren't remotely close internationally.
 

leaffaninvancouver

formerly in Victoria
Jan 11, 2012
13,819
8,328
I didn't say he was better. But they're not far apart and these actually include Sundin's best seasons relative to the league and on a team that was very offensive oriented. Sundin was generally seen as an easy Hall of Famer, if on the lower end (not among the best in the league types). Elias wasn't so far apart to think he couldn't make the cutoff as well.

I guess we'll see, I would be surprised to see it unless there are some very weak classes coming up, who is he going against?
 

Knave

Registered User
Mar 6, 2007
21,672
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Ottawa
Yes. Elias played for the Devils. Sundin played for 2 freewheeling teams. One in a higher scoring era and another when the league was pay to win (and while the Devils participated - it wasn't nearly at the level of consistency as Toronto).
 

dougiebrown

Registered User
Oct 22, 2007
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New Jersey
Former Devils season ticket holder. Have seen Patty play his entire career. My favorite Devils forward to ever play for them. He exemplifies everything you want in a hockey player:

Skill
good speed
100% effort each and every time he's on the ice
perseverance
goal scorer but also unselfish as a playmaker
Respected by opposing players and fans alike (seriously, I've never heard a bad thing said about the guy)
Gentleman (have met him on more than a few occasions and a nicer player you'll find hard to come by.

And with all of that said, I think he deserves a place in the Hall of Very, Very Good.
 

leaffaninvancouver

formerly in Victoria
Jan 11, 2012
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Your boy is in there simply because he scored a point a game and he played for the Toronto Maple Leafs...he won a Gold medal. That's it. I don't see how that's Hall of Fame worthy.

Clearly the hall disagreed with you and if you don't think Sundin deserves to be there how do you justify Elias?
 

Fear the Wushu

Registered User
Dec 4, 2013
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New Brunswick, NJ
Yes. Elias played for the Devils. Sundin played for 2 freewheeling teams. One in a higher scoring era and another when the league was pay to win (and while the Devils participated - it wasn't nearly at the level of consistency as Toronto).

The Devils were league average spenders and the team to the beat in the East for over a decade, not sure the pay to win argument holds wight.
 

Lafleurs Guy

Guuuuuuuy!
Jul 20, 2007
77,147
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The HHOF's standards are so inconsistent that maybe he could get in. If Mark Recchi can get in then why not Elias? Personally I think the bar should be a lot higher than it is. Tons of undeserving players in there already.
 

ForumNamePending

Registered User
Mar 31, 2012
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Perhaps the most underrated player of the last couple of decades? He certainly wouldn't be the worst player to be inducted.

I guess it will depend on how many "friends" he has on the ~20 member selection committee.
 

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