Another point of contention with how the data is presented is that it includes 2 massive outlier seasons (2010/2017) that skew the results. Removing these seasons, the ratios are nearly identical at 1.05 for the Pens and 1.07 for the Capitals. If we consider this a valid way to judge anything in any case, it makes much more sense to look at the cumulative average for a shorter timeframe like '09-'11, '12-'14, etc. as the circumstances change for both teams with being either cup contenders or borderline playoff teams.
Is Ovechkin the 5th Best Player of All Time
- Thread starter winnipegger
- Start date
Hockey Outsider
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- Jan 16, 2005
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There's no disagreement here. I've said many times that Ovechkin is one of the greatest powerplay performers ever.
The data for 2006 and 2007 doesn't exist. We can try to back into it using a bunch of assumptions, but I thought it was better to post the concrete data only.
Out of curiosity, I looked up 2023 and 2024 just now. The Pens and Caps had virtually the same results at 5v5 when Crosby and Ovechkin are off the ice (a GF to GA ratio of 0.93 for Pittsburgh, and 0.92 for Washington). Crosby personally had a 1.15 ratio, and Ovechkin had a 0.81 ratio. It's the same general trend we've seen for the past decade - on similar quality teams, Crosby is more effective at driving his team's results at 5v5 (this is something that, I think, is pretty obvious from watching them play).
Again, this doesn't take PP scoring into account, where Ovechkin is one of the greatest ever. But if we're going micro-analyze both players, surely it's relevant to recognize their strengths and weaknesses. (Nor does this include PK situations, which is essentially Not Applicable for both players).
I agree that Ovechkin virtually always faces the opponents' top defenders. In general, Crosby does too (I know this is an old example, but look at the 2008 and 2009 Stanley Cup finals against Detroit - it was Crosby, not Malkin, who was targetted by Zetterberg and Lidstrom). But I agree with your general point that, over the course of their careers, Ovechkin was more likely to be targeted by the the opponents' top defenders (but it wasn't 50/50 between Crosby and Malkin either).
Conceptually, looking at wins and losses would be preferable. But that's a small sample size (particularly for Ovechkin, who's missed hardly any games throughout his career - and of course, that's a point in his favour). Looking at goals for/against gives you much more data to consider.
The other reason GF and GA data matters is it gives you data from every single season. Even if someone played all 82 games, you can look at how the team did when a player was off the ice. If we're looking only at wins and losses, most seasons can't be analyzed in any meaningful way (ie we're not going to draw a meaningful conclusion from Washington's W/L/T record in the three games Ovechkin missed in 2009 - but we can tell that they were vastly better at outscoring their opponents when he was on the ice, over the course of the entire season).
(EDIT - I don't want to rehash the old Crosby vs Ovechkin argument. My point was, their teams were fairly comparable over the course of their careers. Yes, Crosby might end up with 3 HOF teammates and Ovechkin might only have 1, but we're not doing a fantasy draft. The Penguins (excluding Crosby) and the Capitals (excluding Ovechkin) were roughly equal over the course of the past twenty years, and that's ultimately what counts).
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Arthur Morgan
Registered User
Wait Crosby benefits from playing so much with Malkin and Malkin anchoring the second line and diverting attention away....which one is it?
Also when The Red Wings played the Pens those 2 years for the SC they focused on Crosby not Malkin and frankly you should know better.
That aside it's pretty clear that the vast majority of voters here don't have Ovi as 5th all time and for good reason.
I mean the OP asks a fair question on the surface but upon scrutiny just being the guy with the msot goals all time doesn't give Ovi a ticket for 5th spot and frankly he is clsoer to 10th overall than 5th when all players and psotions are included.
A more interesting question would be is Ovi the 5th best forward of all time?
You mean two years when the Capitals won the Presidents trophy? And failed to win the cup? Not sure you're making the point you intended.
This is the huge problem when posters make a gut reaction from a biased starting point and actually hurt their arguments in the process.
Or you didn't understand the reason for bringing up that contention. My point was outside of those years, they performed similarly relative to their teams. I don't think we should disregard 2010/2017 but at least understand that those particular seasons make the difference between them seem slightly larger than it was over 15 seasons.
I'm sure you would know.
The argument is for 5th all time so why would we remove anything when comparing?
Those things are not mutually exclusive.
Having another top 30 ish player on the team is just a pure benefit.
The thing is that the team argument is easily debunked and the bait and switch, depending on which particular argument you are making at the time doesn't help your case in an overall context.
I haven't looked at the number recently but at most points in their respective careers Ovi has had more scoring plays with backstrom, who would be a HHOFer if injusires hadn't happened, than Crosby did with Malkin and if one digs deep the linemate question doesn't really help the Ovi argument as he didn't suffer or have less support there over his career..
There is no bait and switch here.
Having Malkin on the team helps Crosby.
Playing with Malkin on the powerplay helps Crosby.
Playing with Malkin at even strength helps Crosby.
Splitting opposing team's top defenders with Malkin helps Crosby.
^^^None of these statements are remotely controversial.
Nick Backstrom is a nice player. Fringe hall of famer - by virtue of leading the NHL in secondary assists by a huge margin over certain very long periods of time. From '07-08 to 2022, Backstrom had 355 secondary assists. 2nd place had under 300. It's pretty obvious who was helping who here.
Backstrom is nowhere near Malkin's ballpark in terms of impact.
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Malkin is better than Backstrom but Ovechkin played with Backstrom much more so it probably balances out. Backstrom was also likely a better fit with Ovechkin, and his work on the half wall on the PP (which led to a lot of secondaries) was a big part of the Caps PP success.
In terms of individual stats, you might be right.
In terms of overall team success - which is a huge part of Crosby's resume - it's not remotely close.
Fair enough. That’s probably true. Caps had some good teams but Backstrom wasn’t going to take over a game if Ovechkin wasn’t on like Malkin could for Crosby.
Bure, Panarin, Malkin, Kucherov and Kaprizov have all scored at a higher rate than Ovechkin.
So he's not even the 5th best Russian NHLer of all time, not to mention all the Soviet players who have never stepped foot on NHL ice.
This entire thread only makes sense if you add the 5th best goal scorer as a qualifier.
So he's not even the 5th best Russian NHLer of all time, not to mention all the Soviet players who have never stepped foot on NHL ice.
This entire thread only makes sense if you add the 5th best goal scorer as a qualifier.
He is in the conversation. Best goal scorer of all time. Think about: he is the best person at doing his job that has ever done his job.
He would be unanimously 1st in that department above Lemieux, Gretzky and others
Arthur Morgan
Registered User
OV wont even slot above Crosby after he beats Gretzky's goal record
WarriorofTime
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- Jul 3, 2010
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Well the Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr/Howe big 4 tier is like The Father, Son and Holy Spirit of the ice hockey world. Then I think there's the fact that McDavid seems to be cruising his way to a career that will surpass anyone not in the aforementioned, and could likely turn "Big 4" into "Big 5" assuming he ages well, which we should expect he will. At that spot, that doesn't leave a spot for Ovechkin and Crosby types in "top 5" analysis.
Arthur Morgan
Registered User
maybe, if he doesnt win a cup I dont think he will deserve that. I dont care if its a team sport. imo it's impossible to be the 5th best player of all time without atleast one cup
he would need like 2000+ points and an even heavier trophy case than he has now to earn that spot without a cup imo atleast
Golden_Jet
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- Sep 21, 2005
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, posters are still waiting for you to explain why he’s the worst defensive player you’ve ever seen.Maybe tackle that one first, as it’s an hilarious claim.
pi314
Registered User
Maybe tackle that one first, as it’s an hilarious claim.
Well he’s coming up on 900 goals in the lowest scoring era.
While playing for one of the best regular season teams.
And he’s barely plus 50.
How do you even attempt to explain that without him being shit at defense?
Which by the way, his own coach Bruce Boudreau agrees.
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