Ovechkin is an all time great player and probably the best goal scorer ever but I would choose a number of players historically over him as my teams franchise player. He would probably be top 15 - 20 for me.
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Is Ovechkin the 5th best player of all time?
- Thread starter winnipegger
- Start date
OkimLom
Registered User
- May 3, 2010
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He's a guy I have ahead of Ovie, not necessarily with that group of guys.
In terms of overall player, yep.
ITM
Out on the front line, don't worry I'll be fine...
- Jan 26, 2012
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The use of secondary (first) and primary (second) effect is applied as follows: Gretzky's assists are a secondary effect. His primary effect was his day-to-day example as evidenced by Messier. When I made the comment about Gretzky's greatness being so exceptional that his secondary effect (i.e. assists) contributed to the success of players around him, it was isolated in the sense of production.
And the caveat is always going to be: Kurri has to have the ability to read Gretzky and then convert the chances provided. We are in complete agreement that Messier and Kurri were great players and were likely to become great players without Gretzky.
All-time great is a separate category.
When I note Gretzky's primary effect, it's with respect to overall development. But it's not the starting point despite the use of the word primary. Obviously - to repeat - the players were great in their own right.
For lack of a better example, Bruce Wayne in Batman Begins is a pretty resourceful, pretty tough individual before he hikes his way to The League of Shadows. On his way to becoming Batman, which takes trial and error in Gotham, he has to navigate the gauntlet of the League's entailments, and does so, over and over as if to identify himself with distinction from the League, certainly in ethos; But...Theatricality, deception, fighting, even his gloves have their beginnings because of one source: Ras Al Ghul. By the end, Batman's greatness is his own. But Batman will never be Batman had he not come under the wings of Ras Al Ghul; Al Ghul had a primary effect on Bruce Wayne actualizing his potential that without the knowledge and example of the League of Shadows never manifests in the future as it unfolds.
All things Gotham: Mark Messier emerges as the better leader in my estimation. He is a better captain than Gretzky, as only hindsight would provide. But he is not a better leader in spite of Gretzky. He becomes the best better player version he could and in turn a better leader because of Gretzky, as his testimony recounts.
The reason Mark Messier and Jari Kurri are such great players is solely down to their ability and industry meeting opportunity. They are agents of their own destiny. Gretzky's primary effect on their ability and industry falls more into the opportunity category.
They were going to be at the very least, very good players. With Gretzky, they're all-time greats. Without Gretzky, we don't know.
Bergeron over Ovechkin is lol worthy. You can't even use the cup argument as they each won 1 cup. Heck, Ovechkin has a smythe in the caps run.
Slats432
Registered User
Maybe he isn't the fifth best player but he can be the fifth Beatle. OK, he can't be that either.
He gets a spot in the top 10, but to be top 5 ya need a cup.McDavid doesn't get a spot until he gets a cup.
Here’s my list in no real order. Top 4 is set in stone. 5 and 6 are pretty even.
Orr
Gretz
Lemieux
Howe
Richard
Crosby
Mcdavid
Believeau
Ovi
Hull
Slats432
Registered User
This list is pretty good.
25 Greatest NHL Players Of All Time, Ranked
There is a long and storied history in the NHL. We take a look at the 25 greatest NHL players of all time and rank them.
clutchpoints.com
jigglysquishy
Registered User
The list is really really badThis list is pretty good.
25 Greatest NHL Players Of All Time, Ranked
There is a long and storied history in the NHL. We take a look at the 25 greatest NHL players of all time and rank them.clutchpoints.com
Kurri was a ppg player from the very beginning, game one, despite initially playing a lot with Hagman instead of Gretzky and knowing little English. He finished his rookie season with over ten times more points than all other European-trained players under 21 in league history combined. Not that there had been all too many, but that says something about how exceptional he was. To this day the only Europeans to score ppg in their rookie season as young are Kurri, Malkin, Ovechkin. Nobody else. Jágr only matched it in his third season.
Was Kurri better off eventually getting to play more with Gretzky? Sure. But if he wasn't destined to be an all-time great, no European ever was. Gretzky's biggest favor might have been to embrace his new linemate in a room that was still largely xenophobic and hostile to the Finns in team.
Yeah that’s right. Top 5 once the record is his. Maybe tied with Hasek at 5. He’s a beauty.
- Oct 10, 2007
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893 goals? 11th player all-time. No record, you suck...
+1 goal to 894? + 6 spots, top 5 player all-time.
+ 10 years, when Matthews hits 895? Ovechkin -6, back to 11th.
Cool ranking system...
Greatest goal scorer of all time no doubt but not top 5 player all time.
- Aug 12, 2008
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its also perfectly ok if he isnt in the top 5 all time. Greatest goal scorer ever will take a really long time to be contested and also will have Ovis name mentioned a few hundred times a season after he retires. Not hating on Matthews but so far I doubt he will pass Ovi. Injuries alone will likely keep him from getting there but even if he were healthy there is nothing that says Matthews will automatically have the 30s that Ovi has had.
I agree it's a lot more likely Matthews doesn't surpass Ovechkin (it's such a high bar). But a couple of important things Matthews has going for him:
1. Higher scoring league. This is key. The league was pretty low scoring from ~2010 to 2018. Matthews' equivalent age seasons are likely to continue in higher scoring league in comparison
2. Matthews is ahead, age for age for raw goals. I think he'll be around ~50 goals ahead age for age by end of this year. That's not insignificant
What this means is - Matthews can age worst than Ovechkin as a goal-scorer, and still end up with more goals.
Video Nasty
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- Mar 12, 2017
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WarriorofTime
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- Jul 3, 2010
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Everyone wants to be a wise guy here, but it's not like it's not a normal thing.
Guy wins the Art Ross by 1 point, we look at this differently than the guy who lost the Art Ross by 1 point. Team loses in Game 7 Triple Overtime of the Playoffs. We look at the season differently than if they had won in Game 7 Triple Overtime.
But Ovechkin being on the verge of breaking one of the biggest records in all of Hockey is scoffed at based on only the incrementalist impact.
You're just re-enforcing bad logic/player assessment though.
Your "guy wins art ross by 1 point vs loses by 1 point" argument....well, let's look no further then last season.
For me - both Kucherov and MacKinnon had historic peak seasons last year. Kucherov 140 and 144 points - tremendous. MacKinnon's season isn't worthless because he lost the Ross by 4, even ignoring the hart. To me - both seasons are very comparable, and add an ~ equal amount to each player's resume. They're both great seasons because they outscored the pack, guys like Panarin, Pastrnak etc by very big margins.
Ignoring the hart - MacKinnon's season last year is >>> Jamie Benn's season where he won the Ross.
So no - +/- 1 goal for Ovechkin, or +/- 1 point in a season shouldn't be a big deal.
Ovechkin's resume is extremely strong overall. I don't personally think he's #5 all time (I have him around 10th), but if someone values goal-scoring and longevity a lot, they might have him 5th. Scoring an extra career goal or two or 20 career-wise shouldn't affect his rank.
nowhereman
Registered User
It's a really poor list that completely ignores top 25 locks like Harvey, Shore and Morenz. Also, Messier shouldn't be ahead of Bobby Hull, Brett Hull isn't close to top 25, Jagr really isn't a good option for #5 (Crosby or Beliveau are better options) and Dryden shouldn't be ahead of guys like Kelly, Potvin, or Plante.This list is pretty good.
25 Greatest NHL Players Of All Time, Ranked
There is a long and storied history in the NHL. We take a look at the 25 greatest NHL players of all time and rank them.clutchpoints.com
Nuances always rely on educated fans. To the average fan it’s hart or no hart and they don’t look at details.
Voodoo Child
Registered User
- Jun 16, 2009
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No he's not, that's Crosby.
1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Lemieux
4. Howe
5. Crosby
He's in the next group with guys like Hasek, Beliveau, Hull, Roy, Bourque, Esposito, Lidstrom and Jagr.
1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Lemieux
4. Howe
5. Crosby
He's in the next group with guys like Hasek, Beliveau, Hull, Roy, Bourque, Esposito, Lidstrom and Jagr.
4 years of Ovi’s prime was the most exciting and entertaining hockey performance by single player I have seen, Crosby or McDavid are phenomenal but Ovi in his prime was on higher level, I don’t know were he should be ranked on all-time scale, these rankings are extremely subjective, I just know that watching Ovi in 2007-2010 was the most fun I ever had from watching NHL game
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