Is Nikita Kucherov a Generational Talent? (Based on his NHL Career)

[admiralcadillac]

Are Dionne, Lafontaine, Mogilny, Sakic, Yzerman, Oates, etc. generational talents?

 

[HolyGhost]

Here is a simple question and observation. Make a list of the top 20 players over the last say 15 years. If it was their draft year and all were the same age and everything else. Would you take him over all of the players. Do you take him over Sidney Crosby? McDavid? Malkin? Alex O? If you say no, Than he is not a generation talent? I think he is a very good player. But how would McDavid's stats look if he had both Hedman and Vasilevesky on his team? Look who McDavid has, Nurse and Skinner. I like Kucherov but the fact he had two studs behind him his entire career has helped.

 

[GOilers88]

Here is a simple question and observation. Make a list of the top 20 players over the last say 15 years. If it was their draft year and all were the same age and everything else. Would you take him over all of the players. Do you take him over Sidney Crosby? McDavid? Malkin? Alex O? If you say no, Than he is not a generation talent? I think he is a very good player. But how would McDavid's stats look if he had both Hedman and Vasilevesky on his team? Look who McDavid has, Nurse and Skinner. I like Kucherov but the fact he had two studs behind him his entire career has helped.

Feel like you could say the same for Ovi. Most of his career on absolutely stacked teams.

 

[HolyGhost]

Feel like you could say the same for Ovi. Most of his career on absolutely stacked teams.

Pretty much yeah. Kucherov has been helped by playing several superstars his career and Hedman and the goalie are both going into the Hall off fame when their careers are done

 

[TageGod]

If it is Crosby and Ovechkin, it should probably be Kucherov. Where does the generation change though? Is MacKinnon and Mcdavid the next generation?

 

[MuckOG]

If it is Crosby and Ovechkin, it should probably be Kucherov. Where does the generation change though? Is MacKinnon and Mcdavid the next generation?

IMO, if a player is heads and shoulders over every other player in the league for 5+ years, the "generation" changed at the beginning of their run of greatness.

 

[VinikToWinIt]

I don't see why we wouldn't take the development years into account. The fact that McDavid entered the league at 18, played half a season with the 3rd best point scoring rate in the league, and then won the Art Ross the next season is a massive plus in his case for being a generational player. Kucherov not looking like one of the best players in the world until he was halfway through his 20s, meanwhile, is a negative.

The vast majority of players who are deemed generational had immediate impact that lasted for a long time. The ones that didn't (Hasek who wasn't viewed as the best goalie in the world until his late 20s, or Orr whose career was cut short) dominated in ways that left no doubt that they were generational.

Kucherov is a very good player. He has spent years of being one of the best players in the game. But he's not generational.

Sure, yeah, as I said it's a judgment call and I wouldn't hold it against anyone.

But the other piece to consider is that Kucherov is still at his peak - he just had his best season ever at 30, and is off to another scorching start. Kane is likely done with All Star nominations and awards.

We can't count his cabinet until the door is shut.


As an aside - in regards to dominating in ways that left no doubt, Kucherov now has the 2 highest scoring seasons by a Russian player ever, and set the single season assists record by a winger (by 13!), after tying it a few seasons prior. 3 of the top 6 assist seasons by a winger in NHL history belong to Nikita Kucherov. Without missing a season and a half in his peak, he'd probably have more. In my mind, he's one of the most dominant playmaking wingers we've ever seen. It's a rare combination.

 

[DFC]

Then again, during the brightest days of Yzerman and Sakic there wasn't salary cap ripping up teams that managed to get something done. Winning two cups today is _a lot_ harder than it was like 30 years ago. Not only the salary cap, but there's like 20 % more teams too and even the worst teams are more competitive than ever - not in a sense that for example Sharks would win Stanley Cup this season, but in a sense that if you give any team, say, five years, they have a pretty good chance to give a serious run to the Cup.

What makes Yzerman and Sakic much better than Kucherov right now are the durations of their careers. This obviously is totally unfair against Kucherov, because he simply isn't that old yet and just as obviously he has a chance to have such a long career, remains to be seen.

I agree with this. But, again, as someone who watched A LOT of both Yzerman and Kucherov, I do think Kucherov is the more dangerous scorer. And while Yzerman had longevity on his side, the first half of Kucherov's career compares pretty favorably. 4 100 point seasons despite two covid years (where he paced for 100), two scoring titles, a Hart...

I know Yzerman was up against Gretzky and Lemieux, so a lot of major hardware wasn't possible. But Kucherov has had to deal with McDavid and has still put together a HOF level collection.

Again, I do NOT believe Kucherov is generational. I just think he belongs in a very, very elite tier of players.

 

[Plastic Joseph]

It'd be a pretty low bar to set if we were to consider someone who has literally never been considered the best player in the world a generational talent.

I'm assuming if this was a poll about 90% would say no.

 

[DFC]

I could even place a bet of 100+ assist season happening again by the end of 2029-30 season.


I would agree with this, Kucherov has more elite assets to his game.

It might happen again, but it would probably be McDavid again -- clearly a generational talent.

Or possibly Kucherov, because he's probably the best playmaking winger in history.

Odds are way, way against anyone other than those two doing it. It's only been done by literally the best forwards in history + Kucherov, who isn't, but is among the best playmakers in history.

 

[KevinRedkey]

No, but he probably has one of the highest peaks of any non-generational player, ever.

McDavid is considered by many to be the 3rd best point producer in NHL history, and Kucherov has bested him twice now.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Sure, yeah, as I said it's a judgment call and I wouldn't hold it against anyone.

But the other piece to consider is that Kucherov is still at his peak - he just had his best season ever at 30, and is off to another scorching start. Kane is likely done with All Star nominations and awards.

We can't count his cabinet until the door is shut.


As an aside - in regards to dominating in ways that left no doubt, Kucherov now has the 2 highest scoring seasons by a Russian player ever, and set the single season assists record by a winger (by 13!), after tying it a few seasons prior. 3 of the top 6 assist seasons by a winger in NHL history belong to Nikita Kucherov. Without missing a season and a half in his peak, he'd probably have more. In my mind, he's one of the most dominant playmaking wingers we've ever seen. It's a rare combination.

Since when do we identify players by their nationality? X is a generational player when it comes to swedes. It would be a pretty low bar if we had a record book for say german hockey players. It also seems weird when you separate by forward position. X is a generational winger, but, is the 5th best forward.

 

[authentic]

Then again, during the brightest days of Yzerman and Sakic there wasn't salary cap ripping up teams that managed to get something done. Winning two cups today is _a lot_ harder than it was like 30 years ago. Not only the salary cap, but there's like 20 % more teams too and even the worst teams are more competitive than ever - not in a sense that for example Sharks would win Stanley Cup this season, but in a sense that if you give any team, say, five years, they have a pretty good chance to give a serious run to the Cup.

What makes Yzerman and Sakic much better than Kucherov right now are the durations of their careers. This obviously is totally unfair against Kucherov, because he simply isn't that old yet and just as obviously he has a chance to have such a long career, remains to be seen.

Tampa Bay is known for going over the cap by about 20 million one year they won the Cup so not sure that applies much in his case. Other than that I just don’t fully believe he is as good as those players anyway, maybe purely offensively he is, probably even slightly better but he’s just not as dominant. Prime example is today MacKinnon is a better player than Kucherov and Sakic, Forsberg and Yzerman I consider slightly better players than MacKinnon. I wouldn’t even consider him a better player than Datsyuk to be honest. I also think he has a good 4 or 5 years of elite play left and a good chance he ends up close to them as all-time players

 

[63 others]

I wouldn't say clearly but you can argue he's second best.

All three of Kucherov, Draisailt, and Matthews can be argued for second best forward in past 5 years. Either all three are generational or none are.

There are not four generational forwards in their prime in the NHL right now.

kinda forgot someone didnt you?



edit: i didnt see the date

 

[Acallabeth]

But how would McDavid's stats look if he had both Hedman and Vasilevesky on his team? Look who McDavid has, Nurse and Skinner. I like Kucherov but the fact he had two studs behind him his entire career has helped.

It's unfair to list Kucherov's best teammates and leave out McDavid's. If we try that teammate swap, Tampa becomes worse in goal (which doesn't directly influence forward production), but Kucherov would probably score even more with Bouchard and Draisaitl...

 

[HolyGhost]

It's unfair to list Kucherov's best teammates and leave out McDavid's. If we try that teammate swap, Tampa becomes worse in goal (which doesn't directly influence forward production), but Kucherov would probably score even more with Bouchard and Draisaitl...

McDavid has had Leon and that is it. Kuch has had ten seasons of support

 

[authentic]

Kucherov is as good or possibly better then prime Ovechkin imo

People really believe this?

 

[Puckstuff]

People really believe this?

Kucherov's best season is 144 points with 2 cups. Ovechkin's best season is 112 points with only 1 cup. He will also have more 100 point seasons after this year most likely and he's only 31. He could have another 2-3, 100 point years.

Even when I calculate for the inflation in scoring, I still think Kucherov's best year being 32 points higher then Ovie's best year is higher then the increase in scoring.

Top 6-7 players of the last 20 years, IMO.

1. McDavid
2. Crosby
3. Kucherov/Mackinnon/Malkin/Ovechkin
4. Shesterkin - could possibly reach the top 5 if he continues his dominance and wins cups.

 

[MuckOG]

Deleted

 

[Randyne]

Feel like you could say the same for Ovi. Most of his career on absolutely stacked teams.

Ovechkin and McDavid weren't on stacked teams. Sid and Kuch were.
Theirs teams P% with and without them:

	P% with	P% without
Ovechkin	.610​	.475​
Crosby	.607​	.634​
McDavid	.581​	.446​
Kucherov	.640​	.673​

 

[Randyne]

1. McDavid
2. Crosby
3. Kucherov/Mackinnon/Malkin/Ovechkin

Haters always blind.

Top10 PPG:
Crosby 1*,1,1,1,1,2,2,3,3,4,5,6
McDavid 1,1,1,1,1,2,2
Ovechkin 1,1,1,5,5,8,9,9
Kucherov 1,1,2,4,4,5,8
Malkin 1,2,2,3,3,3,4,6,7,8
Mackinnon 2,3,3,4,5,7,9

Top10 GPG:
Ovechkin 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,2,3,5,5,6,8,9
Crosby 1*,1,2,10
McDavid 1,3,8,9,9
Malkin 2,3,3,6,6
Kucherov 2,10
Mackinnon 5,8

*Sid played a half season it's absolutely not fair to give him 1st place for per game stat, but hockey-reference give him that, so it was added too.

 

[More 2004]

Here is a simple question and observation. Make a list of the top 20 players over the last say 15 years. If it was their draft year and all were the same age and everything else. Would you take him over all of the players. Do you take him over Sidney Crosby? McDavid? Malkin? Alex O? If you say no, Than he is not a generation talent? I think he is a very good player. But how would McDavid's stats look if he had both Hedman and Vasilevesky on his team? Look who McDavid has, Nurse and Skinner. I like Kucherov but the fact he had two studs behind him his entire career has helped.

hes a winger

 

[Puckstuff]

Haters always blind.

Top10 PPG:
Crosby 1*,1,1,1,1,2,2,3,3,4,5,6
McDavid 1,1,1,1,1,2,2
Ovechkin 1,1,1,5,5,8,9,9
Kucherov 1,1,2,4,4,5,8
Malkin 1,2,2,3,3,3,4,6,7,8
Mackinnon 2,3,3,4,5,7,9

Top10 GPG:
Ovechkin 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,2,3,5,5,6,8,9
Crosby 1*,1,2,10
McDavid 1,3,8,9,9
Malkin 2,3,3,6,6
Kucherov 2,10
Mackinnon 5,8

*Sid played a half season it's absolutely not fair to give him 1st place for per game stat, but hockey-reference give him that, so it was added too.

Having a different opinion from you—believing that Ovechkin and Kucherov are in the same tier—is not "hating."

Do you understand what "hating" really means, or are you just sensitive to differing viewpoints?

 

[Randyne]

Having a different opinion from you—believing that Ovechkin and Kucherov are in the same tier—is not "hating."Do you understand what "hating" really means, or are you just sensitive to differing viewpoints?

Putting Ovechkin on a tier with a guy with zero top PPG and GPG looks like a real hating.

 

[authentic]

Kucherov's best season is 144 points with 2 cups. Ovechkin's best season is 112 points with only 1 cup. He will also have more 100 point seasons after this year most likely and he's only 31. He could have another 2-3, 100 point years.

Even when I calculate for the inflation in scoring, I still think Kucherov's best year being 32 points higher then Ovie's best year is higher then the increase in scoring.

Top 6-7 players of the last 20 years, IMO.

1. McDavid
2. Crosby
3. Kucherov/Mackinnon/Malkin/Ovechkin
4. Shesterkin - could possibly reach the top 5 if he continues his dominance and wins cups.

Did you watch Ovechkin and Malkin at their peak? Ovechkin and Malkin belong with Crosby, all 3 are clearly better players than MacKinnon and Kucherov.

1. McDavid
2. Crosby/Malkin/Ovechkin
3. Datsyuk/MacKinnon
4. Kucherov/Kane

For forwards only since the 2005 lockout I believe this is how I would have it.