Thread about prime and while maybe MacKinnon could be longer, Yzerman was fully over his prime after his 11th seasons.
You're talking less than 1 goal a game. it's not insignificant but it's not some DPE chasm either
That, a lot higher, I have:
I'll let Avs fans who've watched MacKinnon more throughout these recent years speak in a more informed sense for him, but for Yzerman, I'll just note that stats/scoring placements aren't at all the best way to judge his season to season consistency, for a few reasons.
Yzerman went through a couple of phases under Demers, the 1986-1988 phase where the team was a very defense focused team, and 1988-1990 which had the wheels come off from the system (though even there 1988-1989 was still half and half). Then under Murray, a remphasis on defense, but also a very deep team at center and a scale back of Yzerman's role offensively. Add to that that injuries basically made Gallant a shell of himself, so quite a few winger experiments (never as stable or as good as Fedorov or Carson at the time) until Ciccarelli arrived for 1992-1993. The Yzerman/Hull and Jordan/Bird article I posted early straight up goes into that factor as the reason that Yzerman's numbers dropped under Murray. Or just this 1991-1992 season recap video:
There's also the interesting case of powerplays and how the Wings split them in the early nineties which I've discussed before in various places. One of the reasons where the stats are simply what they were because of deployment. Given how good the Wings powerplay was in 1992-1993, and how many opportunities they got that year (after almost always being near the bottom in years past), with a more usual deployment, that probably adds 20-30 points right there, above Lemieux 160 to right behind him if you wanna be conservative.
I think Yzerman never played better than in 1992-1993 actually, just that the stats may not be as good because of the depth at center (although after Carson was traded Yzerman was back at a two points a game clip), as well as the way the Wings ran the powerplay, where Yzerman and Fedorov units split the time and didn't play with each other. So with a league leading 113 powerplay goals, Yzerman was only on for a little more than half of them at 61 with 41 points on those. Had he had deployment like many of the other star forwards that year who were on for much more of their powerplay opportunities, he'd probably clock in with 60-70ish powerplay points as a conservative estimate, taking him into the 150+ range again. Only three powerplay points together with Fedorov lol.
(as an aside, exact same thing with Fedorov in 1993-1994)
Federov's Hart Win
It was not an overwhelmingly strong win given his Selke win that year and 2nd in points, and that Wayne didn't even register with Hart voters. Were the voters not as impressed as some with the value of his season? The two goalies behind him in voting did not seem to have era best seasons...forums.hfboards.com
Even-Strength Monsters
The reference to Gary Roberts in the Lemieux thread got me thinking about players who played extremely well at even strength but for whatever reason (lack of pp time, for example) didn't rack up a ton of pp points. I'm looking for your less obvious examples-we all know Gretzky was the absolute...
1993-1994 looks nice stats wise (though take even a superficially deeper look and notice that the goal scoring is gone), and then there's the lower scoring year leaguewide thing that some really dig into, but I'll note that Yzerman played most that year in BAD shape, he didn't even have full range of motion in his arm, couldn't really take faceoffs at times, to the point that he played more on the wing than anytime except maybe his last years from like the 2002 playoffs on. He just got to play with probably the strongest lines he ever was on offensively with a Primeau on the upswing and a Ray Sheppard who finally put it together and hit the back of the net consistently. Got to play a lot more with Fedorov than since his rookie year before (interestingly enough Fedorov started the year on Yzerman's wing, when Yzerman came back, he was initially placed on Fedorov's wing lol).
1993-1994 just just happens to be a year where the Wings had the reins let off them (yes, ironically under Bowman), and so yeah, numbers were good as the team was stacked with talent, team sucked defensively though as compared to the Murray years and the Bowman years to follow.
Lastly, I know MacKinnon missed some time with injuries, I'll just point out that Yzerman had some pretty serious nagging injuries throughout his high scoring years, he just happened to be one of the paramount examples of players who played through them. Probably could have had better rate stats had he sat out more like most players would have.
Compare all of that above with (at least what I perceive to be) the situation of Nate MacKinnon. Same coach throughout the entire period. A player of the caliber of Rantanen as the most consistent linemate. A defenseman like Makar for longer than Yzerman had someone like older Coffey or even young Lidstrom. And the talent beyond the Makar's and Rantanen's. A league context that generally favors stacking lines/units, stacking powerplays, and so on.
This is why it bewildered me at times watching MacKinnon during the Avs 2022 playoff run, how individualistic he was at times. You could make the same knock on Yzerman at times, especially during 1990-1991, but then you look the the situation around both players, seems FAR more understandable to be a helicopter player for Yzerman.
I simply couldn't understand why MacKinnon just decided from time to time to skate furiously into the zone, all the way around the perimiter, cut in above the circles, and fire a shot at the goalie's chest with that world class talent around him...
I'll let Avs fans who've watched MacKinnon more throughout these recent years speak in a more informed sense for him, but for Yzerman, I'll just note that stats/scoring placements aren't at all the best way to judge his season to season consistency, for a few reasons.
Yzerman went through a couple of phases under Demers, the 1986-1988 phase where the team was a very defense focused team, and 1988-1990 which had the wheels come off from the system (though even there 1988-1989 was still half and half). Then under Murray, a remphasis on defense, but also a very deep team at center and a scale back of Yzerman's role offensively. Add to that that injuries basically made Gallant a shell of himself, so quite a few winger experiments (never as stable or as good as Fedorov or Carson at the time) until Ciccarelli arrived for 1992-1993. The Yzerman/Hull and Jordan/Bird article I posted early straight up goes into that factor as the reason that Yzerman's numbers dropped under Murray. Or just this 1991-1992 season recap video:
There's also the interesting case of powerplays and how the Wings split them in the early nineties which I've discussed before in various places. One of the reasons where the stats are simply what they were because of deployment. Given how good the Wings powerplay was in 1992-1993, and how many opportunities they got that year (after almost always being near the bottom in years past), with a more usual deployment, that probably adds 20-30 points right there, above Lemieux 160 to right behind him if you wanna be conservative.
I think Yzerman never played better than in 1992-1993 actually, just that the stats may not be as good because of the depth at center (although after Carson was traded Yzerman was back at a two points a game clip), as well as the way the Wings ran the powerplay, where Yzerman and Fedorov units split the time and didn't play with each other. So with a league leading 113 powerplay goals, Yzerman was only on for a little more than half of them at 61 with 41 points on those. Had he had deployment like many of the other star forwards that year who were on for much more of their powerplay opportunities, he'd probably clock in with 60-70ish powerplay points as a conservative estimate, taking him into the 150+ range again. Only three powerplay points together with Fedorov lol.
(as an aside, exact same thing with Fedorov in 1993-1994)
Federov's Hart Win
It was not an overwhelmingly strong win given his Selke win that year and 2nd in points, and that Wayne didn't even register with Hart voters. Were the voters not as impressed as some with the value of his season? The two goalies behind him in voting did not seem to have era best seasons...Even-Strength Monsters
The reference to Gary Roberts in the Lemieux thread got me thinking about players who played extremely well at even strength but for whatever reason (lack of pp time, for example) didn't rack up a ton of pp points. I'm looking for your less obvious examples-we all know Gretzky was the absolute...
1993-1994 looks nice stats wise (though take even a superficially deeper look and notice that the goal scoring is gone), and then there's the lower scoring year leaguewide thing that some really dig into, but I'll note that Yzerman played most that year in BAD shape, he didn't even have full range of motion in his arm, couldn't really take faceoffs at times, to the point that he played more on the wing than anytime except maybe his last years from like the 2002 playoffs on. He just got to play with probably the strongest lines he ever was on offensively with a Primeau on the upswing and a Ray Sheppard who finally put it together and hit the back of the net consistently. Got to play a lot more with Fedorov than since his rookie year before (interestingly enough Fedorov started the year on Yzerman's wing, when Yzerman came back, he was initially placed on Fedorov's wing lol).
1993-1994 just just happens to be a year where the Wings had the reins let off them (yes, ironically under Bowman), and so yeah, numbers were good as the team was stacked with talent, team sucked defensively though as compared to the Murray years and the Bowman years to follow.
Lastly, I know MacKinnon missed some time with injuries, I'll just point out that Yzerman had some pretty serious nagging injuries throughout his high scoring years, he just happened to be one of the paramount examples of players who played through them. Probably could have had better rate stats had he sat out more like most players would have.
Compare all of that above with (at least what I perceive to be) the situation of Nate MacKinnon. Same coach throughout the entire period. A player of the caliber of Rantanen as the most consistent linemate. A defenseman like Makar for longer than Yzerman had someone like older Coffey or even young Lidstrom. And the talent beyond the Makar's and Rantanen's. A league context that generally favors stacking lines/units, stacking powerplays, and so on.
This is why it bewildered me at times watching MacKinnon during the Avs 2022 playoff run, how individualistic he was at times. You could make the same knock on Yzerman at times, especially during 1990-1991, but then you look the the situation around both players, seems FAR more understandable to be a helicopter player for Yzerman.
I simply couldn't understand why MacKinnon just decided from time to time to skate furiously into the zone, all the way around the perimiter, cut in above the circles, and fire a shot at the goalie's chest with that world class talent around him...
youtube.com
youtube.com
.... so .... which of Yzerman of MacKinnon gets selected for the alley? Assuming of course that Hasek isn't available.
Conn Smythe went to war. You guess who.
I've met MacKinnon and he's pretty jacked, Yzerman is known for his high pain tolerance..... so is the answer Hasek or Forsberg? Maybe Fetisov? I really don't know.
To be clear:
