Is mcdavid too good not to win a cup?

This witch hunt against Skinner is ridiculous. So many average goaltenders have been in Stanley Cup Finals in the last 10 years. The Oilers built a crap team around McDavids deservedly high cap hit. If he stays in Edm, it will be more of the same for the next 9 years.

Panthers - Bob
Oilers - Skinner

Knights - Hill/Broissoit
Panthers - Bob

Avalanche - Kuemper/Francouz
Lightning - Vasi

Lightning - Vasi
Habs - Price

Lightning - Vasi
Stars - Khudobin

Blues - Binner
Bruns - Rask

Capitals - Holtby
Knights -Fleury

Pens - Fleury/Murray
Preds - Rinne

Pens - Murray
Sharks - Jones

Hawks - Crawford
Lightning - Bishop
 
Personally I don't think it's possible unless he is the greediest player in NHL history and literally only cares about money (which doesn't strike me at all as his personality).

He is currently at 1.6ppg in the playoffs, even if he drops to 1ppg, that would make him the 9th best in the NHL which would basically mean into his mid-late 30s he would pretty easily be a top 10 asset for any contending team. And that's assuming a massive dropoff from 1.6 to 1.

At that point he could sign some insanely team friendly deal to stack a contender and win at least one cup. Sid's nearly 40 and still putting up insane numbers and could contribute massively should he go to a playoff team.

Anyways, I personally just don't see how anyone could blame him when he leads the league in playoff ppg (5th in gpg). When you look at that list, it's literally him/Drai and other guys who have won/won a ton. He is literally nearly at Lemieux's level (1.59 vs 1.61) and people are blaming a guy who is only behind Gretzky/Lemieux for playoff ppg. It's insanity to me, especially when you look at the decade of Edmonton's #1 D/G who are abysmal relative to the other all time greats' teams.

Who's blaming him?
 
McDavid is near Lemieux levels playoff production
Skinner is one of the worst goalies in recent playoffs

Obviously McDavid needs to step up and become Gretzky, his poor Lemieux efforts aren't cutting it.

Nah man, McDavid needed to step sideways and produce at McDavid levels in a winner take all game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals. He didn't do that, and that's 'obviously' Stuart Skinner's fault.
 
He needs to take a real look in the mirror and realize that he can win a cup but the whole waiting at the blue line and blowing past defenders while the puck is still deep in his zone isn't how you win. Sadly its just not.

Also 18 millions a year is too much, take a pay cut Connor. And sign in Montréal while youre at it.
 
No teams top star is their best player every single game and responsible for winning every single game. Expecting McDavid to win the game for the Oilers every single time is stupidity. The game winning goal in game 7 was a weak garbage goal and all Skinner's fault. You are not going to win every game 5-4, sometimes you need to win a tight, low scoring game, especially in the playoffs, and you can't afford to have a starting goalie who regularly gives up weak goals at key times in games. Skinner has done this since he entered the NHL and he was lousy for most of the playoffs last season. I believe he has some of the worst playoff goalie stats in the entire salary cap era for goalies.

I don't blame him for how this series is going but he is a liability and shouldn't be a Cup contenders starting goalie.

No one's expecting McDavid to win every single game for the Oilers (or if they are, that's not even close to reasonable). But I do think it's reasonable to expect your best players to make an impact in a Stanley Cup Final game 7 however you define that. For McDavid, his game is built around pure offense, so to make an impact he needs to factor in on the offense. He was held completely off the scoresheet in last year's game 7, and his team lost by a single goal.

Regarding Skinner, like I said I absolutely do NOT think it's reasonable to blame him for McDavid's lack of production in game 7. Especially since Skinner played an ok game (2 goals off 21 shots). Just rewatched highlights, the second goal wasn't terrible (we've all seen worse) and he made a ridiculous stop on Tkachuk with like 15 mins left in the third. Skinner definitely played well enough to give his team a chance to win, that loss was not on him. And yes, like you said sometimes you need to win a tight, low scoring game in the playoffs, but in order to win those games I think most would generally accept the fact that if you only score a single goal you're probably going to lose.




***

In the future, should the Oilers hang on to Skinner? Of course it depends on who else is available, but yeah, probably they should upgrade in goal if they can. He wasn't the reason they lost last year though, that's the main point I've been making
 
No one's expecting McDavid to win every single game for the Oilers (or if they are, that's not even close to reasonable). But I do think it's reasonable to expect your best players to make an impact in a Stanley Cup Final game 7 however you define that. For McDavid, his game is built around pure offense, so to make an impact he needs to factor in on the offense. He wasn't able to in last year's game 7.

Moreover, like I said I absolutely do NOT think it's reasonable to blame the goalie McDavid's lack of production. Especially since Skinner played an ok game (2 goals off 21 shots). Just rewatched highlights, the second goal wasn't terrible (we've all seen worse) and he made a ridiculous stop on Tkachuk with like 15 mins left in the third. Skinner definitely played well enough to give his team a chance to win, that loss was not on him. And yes, like you said sometimes you need to win a tight, low scoring game in the playoffs, but in order to win those games I think most would generally accept the fact that if you only score a single goal you're probably going to lose.

***

In the future, should the Oilers hang on to Skinner? It of course depends on who else is available, but yeah, probably they should upgrade if they can. He wasn't the reason they lost last year though, that's the main point I've been making
It's no one players sole fault for the Oilers losing in the playoffs last season, but what I do know is McDavid is one of the best players in NHL history and Stuart Skinner is a backup goalie and one of the worst starting goalies in the NHL today. Skinner almost lost them their series against the Canucks all by himself and had an under .900 save percentage in half of the playoffs games he played while the Oilers allowed the fewest shots on net per game of any team that played past the first round. McDavid on the other hand was playoff MVP and had a playoff performance only players like Gretzky and Lemieux have ever had.

To suggest Skinner wasn't a liability in last seasons playoffs based on one game where he allowed a bad game winning goal against versus a really strong defensive team is laughable when he was so bad so often in those playoffs. McDavid on the other hand was responsible for them making one of the greatest playoff series comebacks of all time. Yeah, lets blame McDavid for them not winning the Cup. Not the other 17 skaters in the lineup who could have scored a key goal or Skinner could have come up big for them to get the win also. Skinner only ever seems to make a big save after blowing the game by letting in a weak goal, he rarely ever seems make a quality save when the Oilers have the lead or it's a tie game, which is why he is not a starting goalie. You can expect a starting goalie to make big saves for your team, you can't ever expect that out of Skinner, you can barely expect him to make saves he should make.

We can agree to disagree on this one.
 
One player can't drag a team to a championship. It's absurd that we judge people based on not winning cups in a 32-team league, where the average team statistically only wins 3 cups per century.

Imagine you're the best salesperson on earth, and in spite of hitting 240% of annual sales targets year in and year out, you get blamed for the company going bankrupt because it can't figure out its supply chain costs and has manufacturing problems.

As a reminder, a hockey team involves six position players for 60 minutes of ice time, or a total 360 minutes of ice time per game. McDavid averages about 23 minutes per game in the playoffs.

How is someone who represents ~6% of the on-ice effort responsible for the overall playoffs outcome?
 
One player can't drag a team to a championship. It's absurd that we judge people based on not winning cups in a 32-team league, where the average team statistically only wins 3 cups per century.

I get what you are saying, but what if we flip the question... If McDavid wins a cup, do we not give him any credit then? Would it not count to his legacy? Will people say: "Meh, it's a team sport"? I think not.
 
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It's no one players sole fault for the Oilers losing in the playoffs last season, but what I do know is McDavid is one of the best players in NHL history and Stuart Skinner is a backup goalie and one of the worst starting goalies in the NHL today. Skinner almost lost them their series against the Canucks all by himself and had an under .900 save percentage in half of the playoffs games he played while the Oilers allowed the fewest shots on net per game of any team that played past the first round. McDavid on the other hand was playoff MVP and had a playoff performance only players like Gretzky and Lemieux have ever had.

To suggest Skinner wasn't a liability in last seasons playoffs based on one game where he allowed a bad game winning goal against versus a really strong defensive team is laughable when he was so bad so often in those playoffs. McDavid on the other hand was responsible for them making one of the greatest playoff series comebacks of all time. Yeah, lets blame McDavid for them not winning the Cup. Not the other 17 skaters in the lineup who could have scored a key goal or Skinner could have come up big for them to get the win also. Skinner only ever seems to make a big save after blowing the game by letting in a weak goal, he rarely ever seems make a quality save when the Oilers have the lead or it's a tie game, which is why he is not a starting goalie. You can expect a starting goalie to make big saves for your team, you can't ever expect that out of Skinner, you can barely expect him to make saves he should make.

We can agree to disagree on this one.

Fair enough -- looks like we're going to end up agreeing to disagree on this but I want to make very clear what I mean before someone else comes in with a strawman that I'm not actually arguing.

First of all, I'm not saying it's 100% solely McDavid's fault they lost game 7. I put that game down to Edm offense mostly being shut down by a very good defensive effort by Florida. Some credit goes to Florida (incl the coaching staff), some blame goes to Edm's lack of offense of which McDavid is probably the biggest part. And yet, Edmonton had a top-5 offense with so many stars, superstars (and decent scoring depth), if players like RNH or Hyman or Corey Perry or Dylan Holloway had chipped in (like some of them did against Vancouver game 7), then this is a completely different conversation. I'm also saying that if McDavid had produced in that game at his usual level, I personally believe it very likely that the Oilers win the cup.

Second, I'm only talking about Skinner's performance in Game 7 of the finals, not throughout the entire playoffs. In gm 7, I wouldn't consider his performance a liability, but even if you want to argue that it was, the offense still needs to score more than one goal in order for the team to realistically expect to win. And yes, McDavid is one of the best players in NHL history but that doesn't excuse the offense drying up, if anything it probably makes it worse because we all know how dynamic he can be.

***

Regarding prior playoffs, I'm not an OIlers fan, though I tuned into random 3rd periods here and there. Not enough to form an informed opinion on Skinner's play prior to the Western Conference Final. If he was a liability earlier in the playoffs, then fine -- I didn't see enough Oilers games to have a strong opinion either way.

***

Anyway though my larger point is that SCF gm 7 was decided by Edm's offense letting them down (or Fla's defensive effort shutting them down), neither of those has anything to do with Stuart Skinner's goaltending performance in gm7. I honestly do not blame Skinner, at all, for the Oilers losing that game (and therefore, the cup).
 
So far every geneerational player, at least from generations I remember, won at least once, usually more...

But fact that it never happened for such high class player to not win, doesn't mean it will never happen. He's only one player after all, and impact of a single player is really limited in NHL.
 
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I get what you are saying, but what if we flip the question... If McDavid wins a cup, do we not give him any credit then? Would it not count to his legacy? Will people say: "Meh, it's a team sport"? I think not.

It goes both ways, yeah, but the thing with McDavid is that he has put up historic numbers.

Some players have more impact than others, for good or bad, so when the good or bad things happen, they deserve more of the praise/blame.

For example, Giguère in that insane cup run, if they had of won, he would deserve a ton of credit, but it’s not at all fair to blame him for them not winning. If the Oilers exit in the first round this year, it’s not Skinner’s full fault, but he deserves a healthy portion of blame. If they do win the cup, people will talk about it being “in spite of” their goaltending.

But yes, logic aside, we all like winners, and we’d all take our hero player at 0.8 points per game with a cup over that same player playing ten years at 1.6 points per game with no cup.
 
40+ points and a Conne Smythe nullify any alleged critiques to his defense. McDavid isn't hindering his team's ability to win a Cup in the slightest

His performance is up there with Malkin's 2009 and Sakic's 1996 for the best playoff run since the Wayne/Mario era.

Bouchard is 2nd only to Bobby Orr in playoff PPG all-time, I guess he also isn't hindering his team's ability to win a Cup in the slightest.
 
It goes both ways, yeah, but the thing with McDavid is that he has put up historic numbers.

Some players have more impact than others, for good or bad, so when the good or bad things happen, they deserve more of the praise/blame.

For example, Giguère in that insane cup run, if they had of won, he would deserve a ton of credit, but it’s not at all fair to blame him for them not winning. If the Oilers exit in the first round this year, it’s not Skinner’s full fault, but he deserves a healthy portion of blame. If they do win the cup, people will talk about it being “in spite of” their goaltending.

But yes, logic aside, we all like winners, and we’d all take our hero player at 0.8 points per game with a cup over that same player playing ten years at 1.6 points per game with no cup.

Yeah I don't know whether this comparison applies here. In game 7, if Giguere had allowed 5 goals on 18 shots, and if the Ducks had lost 5-4, then yes, it would've been fair to blame Giguere for them for that loss. In reality, the Ducks scored no goals in their game 7 and Giguere allowed 3 off 25, he had average stats that game. But just like the Oilers in gm 7 last year, their offense didn't score, and that has nothing to do with the goalie. I'm not saying McDavid had a game equivalent to letting up 5 goals on 18 shots, but I'm using this extreme example to show how the original analogy doesn't apply.

Anyway, in McDavid's case, he played far below average offensively in his game 7, and the Edm offense didn't really get going until the middle of the third -- they only ended up scoring a single goal, which realistically isn't enough to give the team a chance to win. Especially not a team that's built around offense.

It's not McDavid's full fault, but he deserves a healthy portion of blame. Florida (and their coaching staff) deserve a lot of credit too for locking down defensively.

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Meanwhile, McDavid is obviously a great player and one of the best to ever lace up skates. And he was also held pointless in the most important game of his life up till then. Imo, that last sentence is mostly under McDavid's control, and imo if he would've been average for him (1.6 rounded up -> 2 points) then the Oil win the cup last year, or at the very least they have a much better chance. And I think McDavid knows this too
 
His performance is up there with Malkin's 2009
And for all the talk about Crosby in general.

Penguins won in 2009, and in game 7. It wasn't any of them that really showed up offensively either to support the "but he plays the 200 foot game to win cups"-argument.
His team won it for him, with Talbot scoring twice.

If EDM have done the same and some 3rd liner scored twice for them to beat the Panthers, then all these people wouldn't complain about McDavid and put him down while they try putting Crosby on a pedestal.

2008-09 Stanley Cup Final Game 7, Pittsburgh Penguins vs. Detroit Red Wings Box Score: June 12, 2009 | Hockey-Reference.com
 
And for all the talk about Crosby in general.

Penguins won in 2009, and in game 7. It wasn't any of them that really showed up offensively either to support the "but he plays the 200 foot game to win cups"-argument.
His team won it for him, with Talbot scoring twice.

If EDM have done the same and some 3rd liner scored twice for them to beat the Panthers, then all these people wouldn't complain about McDavid and put him down while they try putting Crosby on a pedestal.

2008-09 Stanley Cup Final Game 7, Pittsburgh Penguins vs. Detroit Red Wings Box Score: June 12, 2009 | Hockey-Reference.com

Are you serious?

For basically 2 full periods out of 3, Pittsburgh was protecting a lead against a team with prime Datsyuk (that was his Hart finalist year), Zetterberg, Hossa, and a good supporting cast -- among others Franzen scored 34 that year, thank you for providing that link. Crosby's not some defensive God, but he was used as a 200 ft forward, and if you're defending a 1-2 goal lead your job is to keep Detroit's big guns off the scoreboard. Which he did (of course with lots of help from his defense and Fleury).

Meanwhile McDavid's team was either tied or down a goal basically that entire game, McDavid's a purely offensive player (and correctly used that way), his job was to score. He didn't.

These aren't even remotely similar situations.
 
McDavids at nearly 2.5ppg

"Oh so his team must be killing it right?"

*Checks notes*

Down 2-1 and needed a third period comeback to prevent being down 3-0.
 
Are you serious?

For basically 2 full periods out of 3, Pittsburgh was protecting a lead against a team with prime Datsyuk (that was his Hart finalist year)
Hockey goes two ways for one. So yes Crosby didn't do shit offensively. Secondly Datsyuk was not playing close to 100% as he was just back from broken foot.
McDavid's a purely offensive player (and correctly used that way), his job was to score. He didn't.
No, McDavid is not just a pure offensive player. Crosby also had a job of scoring, he didn't. He got bailed out by Maxime Talbot.
These aren't even remotely similar situations.
Up or down, fact is neither team scored 3 goals which usually is what you need and neither big guns scored. Both then deserve the same criticism.
 
Hockey goes two ways for one. So yes Crosby didn't do shit offensively. Secondly Datsyuk was not playing close to 100% as he was just back from broken foot.

No, McDavid is not just a pure offensive player. Crosby also had a job of scoring, he didn't. He got bailed out by Maxime Talbot.

Up or down, fact is neither team scored 3 goals which usually is what you need and neither big guns scored. Both then deserve the same criticism.

Bro, if your team is up by a goal or two, as a center your job changes and becomes primarily about shutting down the other team while not taking any risk, especially if you're halfway decent defensively and the other team is loaded on offense like Detroit was. smh
 
Bro, if your team is up by a goal or two, as a center your job changes and becomes primarily about shutting down the other team while not taking any risk, especially if you're halfway decent defensively and the other team is loaded on offense like Detroit was. smh
Bro, if your are a top center and played game 7 without scoring points, your team didn't win because of you.
When you also played 10 minutes in the game, you didn't win because of your defensive blown up capabilities either.
 
Bro, if your are a top center and played game 7 without scoring points, your team didn't win because of you.
When you also played 10 minutes in the game, you didn't win because of your defensive blown up capabilities either.

Meanwhile I suppose if you get essentially knocked out of the game it's your fault you're not scoring from the bench. That's what you're implying now isn't it?

Anyway my bad about forgetting about the Franzen hit and subsequent injury.

Your bad for continuing to go after Sid for lack of offense while also bringing up the fact he didn't play for half the game. And also your bad for pretending that your responsibilities as center are the same while protecting or defending a lead (which you did a couple posts up). They're not.
 
Meanwhile I suppose if you get essentially knocked out of the game it's your fault you're not scoring from the bench. That's what you're implying now isn't it?
Healthy is a way of need to score. You act like he would have scored if he played, yet you argue he defended thus didn't need to score. Your bad I guess.
And also your bad for pretending that your responsibilities as center are the same while protecting or defending a lead (which you did a couple posts up). They're not.
These are your words not mine.
IF you are top 5 center in the league and not scoring, you aren't doing your job to the point everyone wants you do, no matter if you are McDavid or Crosby.
But, also if you are doing decent defensively, but your team is helping out you shouldn't get artificial credit for teamwork for one guy, and dismiss everything the other does as well.
 
Healthy is a way of need to score. You act like he would have scored if he played, yet you argue he defended thus didn't need to score. Your bad I guess.

These are your words not mine.
IF you are top 5 center in the league and not scoring, you aren't doing your job to the point everyone wants you do, no matter if you are McDavid or Crosby.
But, also if you are doing decent defensively, but your team is helping out you shouldn't get artificial credit for teamwork for one guy, and dismiss everything the other does as well.

No, I never said (nor do I believe) Sid would've scored if he played, it's pretty obvious I legitimately forgot about the Franzen hit. Just like I said in my post.

Meanwhile you seem to be doubling down on an argument that Sid being injured and on the bench for half the game is a similar situation to McDavid playing the whole game and not being able to generate offense when his team spent the entire game being tied or down a goal. It isn't.
 

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