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Is Marner the best player on the Leafs?

Semantics said:
Marner is the most skilled and most creative player on the Leafs. But he's not 6'3" or 220 lbs or a center or in possession of a ridiculous shot. I think for Mitch to be a more valuable player he has to outscore Auston by 20+ points. I think he *could* do that some years of his career, but right now you if you've gotta choose between them it's the Big Cactus. The great thing is, we don't have to choose. We've got two young future HHOFers who'll be with this team for a long time. An even better duo than Toews-Kane. God bless Brendan Shanahan and Tim Leiweke.
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I don't think so. 20+ points is an awful lot to be considered better. OV is a winger and is considered far more valuable than most centers. He isn't outscoring them by 20+ points.
 
Beaninfritz said:
Baseball, golf, cricket, curling, tennis, all beg to differ. Even hockey begs to differ. He's below average at best, he's not small. That's reserved for players like Gaudreau and St. Louis.
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good on you for naming 1 athletic sport there.
 
Notsince67 said:
I don't think so. 20+ points is an awful lot to be considered better. OV is a winger and is considered far more valuable than most centers. He isn't outscoring them by 20+ points.
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Ovi's production is also driven in the form of primary points.
 
Notsince67 said:
Like hell he has. Marner leads the team in points and set up a number more that players missed
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Seriously, I can't say how many scoring opportunities were missed last season from "Marner Vision" but it was a ton!
He will make a serious run at league leader in assists if the proposed power play stays together.
 
Beaninfritz said:
Baseball, golf, cricket, curling, tennis, all beg to differ. Even hockey begs to differ. He's below average at best, he's not small. That's reserved for players like Gaudreau and St. Louis.
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That would be short for an elite male tennis player. Here are the height of the top 10 male tennis players by ATP rankings.

Nadal: 6'1
Federer: 6'1
Djokovic: 6'2
Del Porto: 6'6
Zverev: 6'6
Cilic: 6'6
Thiem: 6'2
Dmitrov: 6'3
Anderson: 6'8
Isner: 6'10

The two greats and the player who has mostly dominated the last couple years are all around 6'1 and 6'2, but over half the top 10 6'5.
 
Notsince67 said:
Like hell he has. Marner leads the team in points and set up a number more that players missed
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He also led the team in points in last season's playoffs. How people keep forgetting this stuff is beyond me. 9 points in 7 games is not homerism. Especially when your top line potted 11 points combined. Now I'm not blaming the MatNyHy line, good coaches come up with good counter strategies. You always aim to shut down the top line of the opposition.

Good luck NHL this year. Now the Leafs have 2 top lines. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
 
93LEAFS said:
That would be short for an elite male tennis player. Here are the height of the top 10 male tennis players by ATP rankings.

Nadal: 6'1
Federer: 6'1
Djokovic: 6'2
Del Porto: 6'6
Zverev: 6'6
Cilic: 6'6
Thiem: 6'2
Dmitrov: 6'3
Anderson: 6'8
Isner: 6'10

The two greats and the player who has mostly dominated the last couple years are all around 6'1 and 6'2, but over half the top 10 6'5.
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You seem to be cherry picking yet again. 6'0 is not short compared to 6'3. It's short compared to 6'10, but so is 6'1. I guess it's time to start slandering Nadal as being short by your standards.
 
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93LEAFS said:
That would be short for an elite male tennis player. Here are the height of the top 10 male tennis players by ATP rankings.

Nadal: 6'1
Federer: 6'1
Djokovic: 6'2
Del Porto: 6'6
Zverev: 6'6
Cilic: 6'6
Thiem: 6'2
Dmitrov: 6'3
Anderson: 6'8
Isner: 6'10

The two greats and the player who has mostly dominated the last couple years are all around 6'1 and 6'2, but over half the top 10 6'5.
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6'10" holy f***
 
Maplebeasts said:
In the end who cares? Marner clearly is not the best player on the team. Preseason does not change that and it's not a slight on him.
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Based on what? Your opinion? Nothing is clear here. He has been the best player on the leafs since at least the end of January. After he got respectable linemates, he was better during the regular season, better in the playoffs and better in the preseason. You want to make a proclamation using the word "clearly" when it isn't so clear.
You clearly care enough to make a definitive statement in this manner
 
Notsince67 said:
Based on what? Your opinion? Nothing is clear here. He has been the best player on the leafs since at least the end of January. After he got respectable linemates, he was better during the regular season, better in the playoffs and better in the preseason. You want to make a proclamation using the word "clearly" when it isn't so clear.
You clearly care enough to make a definitive statement in this manner
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Marner was amazing, but he wasn’t better than Matthews for the bulk of last season.

Matthews scored at a higher pace, in tougher minutes, a tougher position, and scored more goals despite playing less games.
 
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With a full season of being healthy and being on a stacked powerplay, it wouldn't surprise me to see Matthews score 90 points this year. His skating looks like its improved, which says a lot considering it was already great before. I love Marner and I hate comparing our players but it's impossible to put him ahead of Auston.
 
Beaninfritz said:
You seem to be cherry picking yet again. 6'0 is not short compared to 6'3. It's short compared to 6'10, but so is 6'1. I guess it's time to start slandering Nadal as being short by your standards.
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Awesome edit after I responded to your original point about looking at historical comparables. One, 6'1 appears to be the entry for elite tennis players at the moment, with both players being older than 30. I also don't know how literally looking at the top 10 ranked tennis players and using them as an example is cherry picking. Every single person on that list is bigger than the height you quoted.

Marner has a small build for an NHLer. I'd say Marner looks significantly shorter than his 6'3 contemporaries such as Matthews (who actually measured 6 2 1/4 at his combine, Marner measured 5'11). Those people aren't everyday short
 
People won't admit it because of the Matthews/Tavares hype, but Marner has easily been the Leafs best forward. If we're talking about who's actually shown they're the best, then its marner without a doubt.

Although I also understand why matthews has the "potential" to be the 2nd best player in the league
 
Notsince67 said:
I don't think so. 20+ points is an awful lot to be considered better. OV is a winger and is considered far more valuable than most centers. He isn't outscoring them by 20+ points.
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I don't know, I think OV is pretty overrated. Not that he isn't an elite elite player, and one of the best goal scorers ever, but Kuznetsov and Backstrom are no slouches, and I think as centers they have just as much impact on the game as OV and drive the play a more.

Marner does narrows the positional gap a lot though just because he's so much better than most wingers at bringing the puck up the ice.
 
Notsince67 said:
Based on what? Your opinion? Nothing is clear here. He has been the best player on the leafs since at least the end of January. After he got respectable linemates, he was better during the regular season, better in the playoffs and better in the preseason. You want to make a proclamation using the word "clearly" when it isn't so clear.
You clearly care enough to make a definitive statement in this manner
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Marner's great ending to last season had little to do with linemates at even strength, as his production rate there was pretty much the same. He hit a hot streak driven by PP success, got a ton of minutes as a result, and kept on producing.

In any other case, I would take the guy with the superior performance in the better sample size over the guy with better performance in a smaller, more recent sample, especially when the latter comes with sustainability issues.

AuraSphere said:
If we're talking about who's actually shown they're the best, then its marner without a doubt.
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I don't get this. Matthews has a better case based on actual on-ice performance.
 
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Nithoniniel said:
Marner's great ending to last season had little to do with linemates at even strength, as his production rate there was pretty much the same. He hit a hot streak driven by PP success, got a ton of minutes as a result, and kept on producing.

In any other case, I would take the guy with the superior performance in the better sample size over the guy with better performance in a smaller, more recent sample, especially when the latter comes with sustainability issues.


I don't get this. Matthews has a better case based on actual on-ice performance.
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Marner is a tadilly tad overrated player at the moment...

Why is that? Is it the hounddog steemengine fun to watch style?

Matthews is more boring style to watch, but he is better. How anyone can miss that is flabbergasting.

Anything can happen under the season ,but going in to this season Matthews is nr1 , dont know exactly were Tavares stands if he challange the nr1 place.

Marner may prove me wrong , but then it is not based on previous performance.
 
Nithoniniel said:
Marner's great ending to last season had little to do with linemates at even strength, as his production rate there was pretty much the same. He hit a hot streak driven by PP success, got a ton of minutes as a result, and kept on producing.

In any other case, I would take the guy with the superior performance in the better sample size over the guy with better performance in a smaller, more recent sample, especially when the latter comes with sustainability issues.


I don't get this. Matthews has a better case based on actual on-ice performance.
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Definitely true about the hot powerplay being a part of that uptick. Marner was the one pretty much running the powerplay and was a reason why it was so good though. They had a 26.8% PP from December 9th till the end of the season, that's #1 in the league during that time.

From December 9th till the end of the regular season.

PP points from that same time
Marner 53gp 22ppp
Matthews 37gp 7ppp
Nylander 53gp 6ppp

Even strength
Marner 53gp 31evp
Matthews 37gp 30evp
Nylander 53gp 35evp

Matthews is still the best overall player in most situations on this team.
 
may not be the best, but definitely is one of the most enjoyable to watch.
 
nuck said:
So Matthews scored at an 83pt clip as a 20 year old will basically not improve, and and Marner who scored at a 69 point pace as a 20 year old will improve by 25%. I guess they don't much faith in Matthews staying healthy. Where do they see Tavares?
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They have JT @ #31 with 77 games 38-42-80 points as their projection, finishing 3rd in Leafs scoring behind Marner and Matthews, with Mitch leading the Leafs in scoring again this year.

Both Tavares and Matthews had higher PPG rates than Marner last season so they're simply not taking last year point-per-game % rate and applying that as its only method.

Part of their detailed description includes spreading the wealth on the Leafs, where as a player like Eichel for example will be the main offensive force and get the top minutes nightly. Matthews and Tavares lines both getting 18-19 minutes a night ATOI/g while Eichel get 20-21 minutes.

One thing I noticed was that they don't believe all 3 Leaf centres will appear on 1 PP unit together like we saw in the exhibition, as they have Marner -- Tavares on 1 PP unit and Matthews with Nylander (when he returns) on a separate one. So much like last years trend one unit will get more PP time and be more productive and that will impact some point reduction potentially for players individually.

A stacked PP vs a balanced PP unit over 2 units will impact offensive #'s. Eichel is the sabres marquee player and will get all the prime PP time.
 
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One a given night, any of Tavares, Matthews, Marner, Kadri, Rielly, Nylander, Gardiner and Andersen can be our best player.

I think Matthews will have the most of those nights, but Marner & Tavares won't be far behind.

That being said, Marner seems to have taken some big strides this summer based on his pre-season, and he could very well take his game to another level.
 
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