Is Jagr the greatest European player of all time?

[NotCommitted]

Prime Jagr was insanely good and his best years were probably during the dead puck era, from 98-99 to 01-02. Three art rosses in a row and the two first were especially dominant, in his own league for the first one and in 00-01 he won it despite playing only 63 games.

If you cherry pick 5 best seasons of a players career, Jagr would rank pretty damn high on that list, both Gretzky and Mario would be on a completely different tier to anyone else, but for no3 I think it would be between McDavid and Jagr, with the edge to McDavid but not as one-sided as you might think at first. I can't think of anyone else who would have a case against those two (from the modern era). At least if looking at reg season only, if you include post season then it might be different but gets too complicated for me.

 

[hirawl]

Of course he is. Don't be silly.

 

[Warh1ppy]

Yes he is. Period

Missed the shortened 94/95 season. The lost season of 2004/2005. Dipped out for basically 3/4 seasons between 2008/2013.

He did this while averaging over 30 goals per season, or essentially lost almost 140 goals (averaged) and 89 points per season (averaged) over those lost years

When you look at those numbers, you realize that adding that (averaged) 140 ish goals has him "potentially" beating Gretzky's goal scoring record and sets him somewhere at or about 2400 total points.

He is the greatest pound for pound all around European player to ever play the game bar none. Sorry Malkin Ovechkin and Kucherov. But it isn't really close

 

[Habssince89]

Ray Bourque says "hello".

From third place sorry

 

[PhilJets]

Yes

 

[Corto]

Yes he is. Period

Missed the shortened 94/95 season. The lost season of 2004/2005. Dipped out for basically 3/4 seasons between 2008/2013.

He did this while averaging over 30 goals per season, or essentially lost almost 140 goals (averaged) and 89 points per season (averaged) over those lost years

When you look at those numbers, you realize that adding that (averaged) 140 ish goals has him "potentially" beating Gretzky's goal scoring record and sets him somewhere at or about 2400 total points.

He is the greatest pound for pound all around European player to ever play the game bar none. Sorry Malkin Ovechkin and Kucherov. But it isn't really close

This is the right answer.

People here (the newer generation) don't understand just how dominant Jagr was, on very flawed teams, carrying 2 defenders draped across his back in the dead puck era.

He was more dominant than Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin or Kuch ever were.
Only McDavid has hit the same level of dominance since.

 

[Randyne]

People here (the newer generation) don't understand just how dominant Jagr was, on very flawed teams

Why post something like this?
3 HOFers with 20 major awards on his team.
They factored in 168 points out of 293 points. That's 57.3% amount of help from HOFers on Jagr's 3x Ross.
Why pretend that never happened?
I don't understand.


Ovechkin AINEC.

 

[Corto]

Why post something like this?
3 HOFers with 20 major awards on his team.
They factored in 168 points out of 293 points. That's 57.3% amount of help from HOFers on Jagr's 3x Ross.
Why pretend that never happened?
I don't understand.


Ovechkin AINEC.

Honest question. Did you watch Jagr and his teams in from about 1995 onwards?

Apart from Mario coming back in 2001, he was mostly carrying cast-offs, misfits and projects.

His one good side kick was Straka (both in Pittsburgh and in NY), the KLS line was a thing for a couple of years, while Jagr played with Jan Hrdina, German Titov and the corpse of Kevin Stevens, etc.

The defense during the Pens years was mostly a flashy but inconsistent Darius Kasparaitis, and such household names as Jiri Slegr, Ian Moran, Andrew Ference, etc.

The NY years were even more ridiculous, he carried a franchise that was a laughing stock back into relevance - all accompanied by, again, misfits and cast-offs, Nylander, Straka, Rozsival, Rucinsky, Malik, etc.
Lundqvist came up, some rookies like Tyutin and Girardi, etc.... But make no mistake about it, it was a hell of a carry job by Jagr.

Also, Jagr won 5 Ross trophies, not 3. Why are you just counting 3? (other than to better suit your agenda)

Jagr was so far ahead of his competition that he could miss 20 games and still win the Art Ross, ahead of players like Bure, Forsberg, Fedorov, Sakic, Lindros, etc.
(and that actually happened in 1999-2000, played 66 games and won the Art Ross).

 

[Randyne]

Also, Jagr won 5 Ross trophies, not 3. Why are you just counting 3? (other than to better suit your agenda)

Paced only 3 times, not 5.

and that actually happened in 1999-2000, played 66 games and won the Art Ross

With Mario help (43.8%).

 

[Fire Sweeney]

I would say he is, and a only a handful of players could be considered in the discussion, although they would lose in the end.

Dominik Hasek
Erik Lidstrom
Alexander Ovechkin
Zdeno Chara
Sergei Fedorov

 

[24 others]

It's Jagr, Hasek and Lidstrom. Between the three of them, the argument is more about the importance of a given position (especially when discussing Hasek's ranking) rather than about the player.
Among forwards, it's Jagr.

 

[wetcoast]

Paced only 3 times, not 5.

What are you talking about Jage has 5 Art Ross trophies.

With Mario help (43.8%).

4 of those Art Ross trophies Mario didn't play a single game dude.

Also Mario didn't play in 99-00.

Facts are hard, poor takes not so much.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

It's Jagr, Hasek and Lidstrom. Between the three of them, the argument is more about the importance of a given position (especially when discussing Hasek's ranking) rather than about the player.
Among forwards, it's Jagr.

Agreed each are top of there class in position

If I had to rank them.

Jagr
Hasek - I consider him the best goalie ever.
Lidstrom

 

[Bradely]

For me, It will always be Borje Salming, then Peter Stasny.

 

[Greatzsky 99]

Jagr is the greatest European of all time.

 

[Cup Or Bust]

I would take Forsberg, Hasek, and Lidstrom over him as players, but Jagr has had the greatest statistical career so in that sense he is the greatest.

 

[GMR]

I would say he is, and a only a handful of players could be considered in the discussion, although they would lose in the end.

Dominik Hasek
Erik Lidstrom
Alexander Ovechkin
Zdeno Chara
Sergei Fedorov

Erik Lidstrom?

 

[Lat]

I would say he is, and a only a handful of players could be considered in the discussion, although they would lose in the end.

Dominik Hasek
Erik Lidstrom
Alexander Ovechkin
Zdeno Chara
Sergei Fedorov

I've never seen anybody call Lidstrom "Erik" instead of "Nicklas". Had to Wikipedia his full name.

Anyhow, I think it's pretty close between Jagr and Hasek, but I personally put Hasek a hair above just because he's the [imo] the best goaltender in NHL history.

 

[Warh1ppy]

This is the right answer.

People here (the newer generation) don't understand just how dominant Jagr was, on very flawed teams, carrying 2 defenders draped across his back in the dead puck era.

He was more dominant than Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin or Kuch ever were.
Only McDavid has hit the same level of dominance since.

I can only imagine what would have been had Mario not been struck down with Cancer, or had Jagr had the chance to play with Crosby or Ovechkin.

I've done a deep dive of this nature in the past with Brodeur and if I recall the data without having to go look, averaged out he would have had closer to 750 wins and near 155 shut outs.

it's not fair to use this metric as obviously 2004/2005 was a lost season and we can't argue hypotehticals that never happened

But Jagr left after being an absolutely dominant beast who mostly looked totally disinterested in the game and he lost a total of 5 seasons at around 30+ goals (averaged out) and 89 total points (averaged out) which puts him near or above gretzky's goal scoring record and over 2300 points.

Being that so many players since have missed out including Ovechkin, Crosby with 2004/2005 2012/2013 and the covid seasons and then injuries (Lemieux/Crosby) we cant really do the hypotheticla thing

But there's almost no reason to consider that Jagr would not be above 800 goals and 2000 points with those 5 ish missed seasons when you look at the entirety of his point totals the 3 years prior to each of his leaves.

Simply put, he is the greatest European player to ever play the game and in some aspects might overall be the 2nd greatest forward to ever lace them up

This is in fact a hill i will die on

 

[Warh1ppy]

Paced only 3 times, not 5.

With Mario help (43.8%).

Respectfully, this is saying that even with Gretzky AND Mario in the game and WITH Mario he was the best forward in the game

You have to understand what that means

This is also without factoring in he lost the 05/06 race by 2 points to Joe Thornton while being 44 points ahead of the next highest scoring player (M Nylander) on the Rangers.

Just keep that in mind

 

[Video Nasty]

But there's almost no reason to consider that Jagr would not be above 800 goals and 2000 points with those 5 ish missed seasons when you look at the entirety of his point totals the 3 years prior to each of his leaves.

Sure there is and it's a monumental one.

You're taking his real life numbers, a reality where he has repeatedly said that playing in the KHL reinvigorated his desire to return to the NHL, then adding fantasy projections of those missed years to his final totals.

Rather than crossing 800 goals and 2000 points, the most likely alternate reality based on what happened in this reality is that he leaves the NHL with the 646 goals and 1,599 points he had through his age 35 season and that’s the end.

Those totals would still be good enough for 14th and 11th all-time, rather than 4th in goals and 2nd in points, while his PPG would be sitting all the way up at 8th, rather than down at 31 after playing 460 games from age 39-45.

We simply don’t know how reality plays out if there is a full 1994-1995 season or 2004-2005 isn’t wiped out entirely. But I do know that’s not as simple as plugging in estimates and pretending everything else flows forward in the exact same way.

We can’t have it all.

 

[Mr Kot]

Erik Lidstrom?

The great Erik Lidstrom, the best rear defender in European Frozen Stick Disc

 

[Warh1ppy]

Sure there is and it's a monumental one.

You're taking his real life numbers, a reality where he has repeatedly said that playing in the KHL reinvigorated his desire to return to the NHL, then adding fantasy projections of those missed years to his final totals.

Rather than crossing 800 goals and 2000 points, the most likely alternate reality based on what happened in this reality is that he leaves the NHL with the 646 goals and 1,599 points he had through his age 35 season and that’s the end.

Those totals would still be good enough for 14th and 11th all-time, rather than 4th in goals and 2nd in points, while his PPG would be sitting all the way up at 8th, rather than down at 31 after playing 460 games from age 39-45.

We simply don’t know how reality plays out if there is a full 1994-1995 season or 2004-2005 isn’t wiped out entirely. But I do know that’s not as simple as plugging in estimates and pretending everything else flows forward in the exact same way.

We can’t have it all.

So just to clarify, you don't think that in the 5 ish missed seasons Jagr decided to be elsewhere in the world playing hockey due to lockouts or boredrom he couldn't score 34 goals or 79 points ?

k

 

[Fataldogg]

I tend to have Hasek at #1, objectively, even if Jagr is one of my personal favorites of all time. I don't think the "Big 4" should be a phrase, when Hasek, the greatest goalie of all time should have made it the "Big 5."

After Hasek it is Jagr. I think Jagr has a notable edge over Lidstrom.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Jagr
Hasek

Lidstrom = Ovechkin