Is Jagr the greatest European player of all time?

[Felidae]

Not for long. Draisaitl is going to fill that void.

Draisatl is awesome.. but he doesn't have the peak of someone like Jagr or Ovechkin, and they sustained it for a couple seasons.

Him and Kucherov would need a historically great 30+ career to make up some lost ground.

 

[paragon]

Draisatl is awesome.. but he doesn't have the peak of someone like Jagr or Ovechkin, and they sustained it for a couple seasons.

Him and Kucherov would need a historically great 30+ career to make up some lost ground.

Yeah, I didn't claim he was going to be greatest European. I just think he's going to fill the void of great European centers. The only other European centers to have won Hart and Art Ross trophies are Henrik Sedin and Peter Forsberg and they don't have the peak nor longevity for a claim to be an all-time great. I think when all is said and done Draisaitl will. From 2018 onwards he has scored most goals in the league. 7 seasons is already quite a long peak and he's beating all-time greats like Ovechkin and Matthews.

 

[Felidae]

Yeah, I didn't claim he was going to be greatest European. I just think he's going to fill the void of great European centers. The only other European centers to have won Hart and Art Ross trophies are Henrik Sedin and Peter Forsberg and they don't have the peak nor longevity for a claim to be an all-time great. I think when all is said and done Draisaitl will. From 2018 onwards he has scored most goals in the league. 7 seasons is already quite a long peak and he's beating all-time greats like Ovechkin and Matthews.

My bad, I misread your comment then. But yeah I do think when all is said and done Draisatl has a good chance of being ranked as the 1# European center of all time

Other players like Forsberg or Fedorov have arguments when comparing peak, but for one reason or another weren't able to have the lengthy prime Draisatl has. Malkin is probably his closest rival. But again, lacks the durability Draisatl has, and that matters in all time rankings when 2 players are very close in ability..

 

[daver]

From 2018 onwards he has scored most goals in the league. 7 seasons is already quite a long peak and he's beating all-time greats like Ovechkin and Matthews.

From 2022 onwards, Pasta has been beating Matthews and Draisaitl.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Hasek

3x Hart
6x Vezina

Hasek is a really interesting case. Six great years. He was drafted the same year as Yzerman.

Yzerman also had six amazing seasons. In those years he was Lafleur-like 50/100 in every year except one (missing fifty by like five goals.) Averaged something like 55//130 over those seasons per 80 games played. Best player in hockey not named Mario/Wayne. And he did all of that before Hasek was even in the league. Then he had injuries and was never really the same but still had some great years and won cups later on. He’s regularly dismissed when talking about best players ever but honestly if you’re drafting in 83 do you take him or Hasek? By the time Hasek’s even in the league Yzerman’s already put up a first ballot HOF career.

Hasek’s peak is one few players can match but he doesn’t have the duration of the other two. Lidstrom was ridiculously consistent. Jagr was also consistently and won Harts along the way.

I think Hasek’s peak is the highest. If that’s how you measure it then he’s the best. But you have to wait ten years before he’s doing anything in the NHL.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I have no idea how anyone can not say Hasek. He was the nearest comparable to the almost impossible saying of a "one man team"; and his accolades and numbers back it up.

He's arguably the greatest player of all time especially playing the toughest position in his revolutionary goaltending method-- that no one else has ever come close to replicating again.

Because his NHL career is a lot shorter.

For the record, I’d have Hasek as the best. His sustained peak is unparalleled. Best goalie who ever played. And I say this as someone who hated his playing style. I hated watching him flop all over. He always looked lucky. But when you stop that many pucks, it’s more than luck.

So yeah he’s the best. But I’d rather have Yzerman’s, Jagr’s and Lidstrom’s careers. If I’m drafting a player and know what I’m getting career wise any of those players go first. But none of them had the peak Hasek did. Hasek is the best of any of them and that’s saying a lot, especially when you look at that six year stretch from Yzerman.

 

[PaulD]

Hasek
Jagr
Lidstrom
Fedorov
Kucherov

 

[wetcoast]

Draisatl is awesome.. but he doesn't have the peak of someone like Jagr or Ovechkin, and they sustained it for a couple seasons.

Perhaps not but they also have much better consecutive primes and better individual playoff resumes already right?

Him and Kucherov would need a historically great 30+ career to make up some lost ground.

Not really, see above, they are only 29 and 31 and still elite players so they have plenty of time to add to their impressive resumes.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I hate this logic.

Ovechkin is 9 goals away. He's either great enough to surpass Jagr today, or he isn't - +/- 9 goals makes no difference.

For the record - I think Ovechkin is amazing, and just said above that both him and Jagr are close. But 9 career goals shouldn't matter.

I don’t think 9 goals has any bearing on who is the better player.

But as to who is the greater player, that 9 goals matters a lot.

It’s a bit like Crosby’s golden goal. It doesn’t have any bearing on how good a player he is. And really, why should it take anything away from him if someone else scored earlier in that OT before he got the chance? But you bet your ass, that goal is the first answer to “what was the greatest thing Crosby ever did?”. And that inevitably bears on his overall legacy and greatness.

 

[wetcoast]

I don’t think 9 goals has any bearing on who is the better player.

But as to who is the greater player, that 9 goals matters a lot.

It’s a bit like Crosby’s golden goal. It doesn’t have any bearing on how good a player he is. And really, why should it take anything away from him if someone else scored earlier in that OT before he got the chance? But you bet your ass, that goal is the first answer to “what was the greatest thing Crosby ever did?”. And that inevitably bears on his overall legacy and greatness.

That's fair but the problem that always creeps in that some conflate "greatest" with "better" and no doubt there will be an onslaught of that in 10 goals time right?

I mean the usual suspects are already at it in this thread.

Thread 'Ovechkin Milestone Thread - Countdown to 894 (Continued)'

Jan 18, 2025

Continued from Ovechkin Milestone Thread - Countdown to 894

THIS IS NOT A THREAD FOR POLITICAL DISCUSSION!

• SoupNazi
• Replies: 1,064
• Forum: National Hockey League Talk

• 

 

[DitchMarner]

I don’t think 9 goals has any bearing on who is the better player.

But as to who is the greater player, that 9 goals matters a lot.

It’s a bit like Crosby’s golden goal. It doesn’t have any bearing on how good a player he is. And really, why should it take anything away from him if someone else scored earlier in that OT before he got the chance? But you bet your ass, that goal is the first answer to “what was the greatest thing Crosby ever did?”. And that inevitably bears on his overall legacy and greatness.

Kind of like how McDavid's OT winner against the States at the Four Nations Tournament will be become part of Canadian hockey lore. The joy over winning that tournament in this country was immense.

I get the idea that placing heavy emphasis on a few goals in legendary careers spanning decades can seem kind of arbitrary and silly, but hockey is also about special moments and achievements. These things weigh heavily on people's perceptions of players.

 

[Felidae]

Perhaps not but they also have much better consecutive primes and better individual playoff resumes already right?

Not sure why having all your best seasons consecutively matters all that much.

If 2 players have the same amount of top 10 points finishes, I don't think the differentiator between them would be player A having done it consecutively and the other more spread out.

Besides, it's not even true.

Draisatl has 5 straight seasons finishing between 2nd and 4th in points, then a 7th point finish before this season. So 7 consecutive top 10 points finishes in total

Jagr has 9 consecutive top 10 point finishes, and in that 5 art Ross wins (4 consecutive) and two 2nd runner ups. Then a 5th, 6th and 9th point finish

Not really, see above, they are only 29 and 31 and still elite players so they have plenty of time to add to their impressive resumes.

I think you're underestimating how hard it is to have elite production in your 30s. Jagr only finished top 10 in points twice after 30. One was a runner up to the Art Ross, but he never came close to that production again

Crosby, one of the most consistent players ever, has 3 top 10 point finishes after 30, none of which came close to winning hardware.

Kucherov has arguably already done more than either in their 30s, he might very well win 2 straight art Ross trophies. Yet it would probably take another art Ross for Jagr vs Kucherov to become a serious discussion..

And Draisatl has to do quite a bit more than Kucherov

 

[wetcoast]

Not sure why having all your best seasons consecutively matters all that much.

Okay then we can make 2 different metrics but a guy like Lafleur gets props for a consecutive prime and overlapping playoff resume during that prime that's what I'm getting at with draisaitl and Kuch and both are still going strong.

If 2 players have the same amount of top 10 points finishes, I don't think the differentiator between them would be player A having done it consecutively and the other more spread out.

I tend to agree but we hve the eample of Lafleur above and contrast how Dionne is compared to Lafleur.

Besides, it's not even true.

Draisatl has 5 straight seasons finishing between 2nd and 4th in points, then a 7th point finish before this season. So 7 consecutive top 10 points finishes in total

To be fair part of my comments are directed at how Drasital and to a lesser degree Kuch compare to Ovechkin more than Jagr but also given age and playoff resumes there is something there.

Jagr has 9 consecutive top 10 point finishes, and in that 5 art Ross wins (4 consecutive) and two 2nd runner ups. Then a 5th, 6th and 9th point finish

I think you're underestimating how hard it is to have elite production in your 30s. Jagr only finished top 10 in points twice after 30. One was a runner up to the Art Ross, but he never came close to that production again

The thing is that Kuch led the league last year at age 30 and is in the mix for the art ross this year so until he drops off.

Leon has the better case as he is only 29 and both guys just simply outmatch Jagr in terms of playoff production already and will probably widen their leads there.

Crosby, one of the most consistent players ever, has 3 top 10 point finishes after 30, none of which came close to winning hardware.

I'm not a hardware counter I look at complete pictures.

Kucherov has arguably already done more than either in their 30s, he might very well win 2 straight art Ross trophies. Yet it would probably take another art Ross for Jagr vs Kucherov to become a serious discussion..

I think Kuch is the least likely and has the weakest argument between Jagr/.Ovi, Draisaitl f given his age.

And Draisatl has to do quite a bit more than Kucherov

Perhaps but he is ahead of Kuch at the same age.

 

[Fantomas]

This is an old thread and I've probably made this point before. I don't think Jagr has an argument, because of his piss poor post season play. He won two cups as a young player on teams where he wasn't even a second option. After that, many great regular seasons; but those who remember the postseasons would never rate him ahead of Ovy, Lidstrom and other European greats. Jagr is somewhere between 15-20 all-time for me. Great player and a very cool guy, but he had flaws.

 

[Sparky]

This is an old thread and I've probably made this point before. I don't think Jagr has an argument, because of his piss poor post season play. He won two cups as a young player on teams where he wasn't even a second option. After that, many great regular seasons; but those who remember the postseasons would never rate him ahead of Ovy, Lidstrom and other European greats. Jagr is somewhere between 15-20 all-time for me. Great player and a very cool guy, but he had flaws.

Jagr should be in the conversation for best European of all time after Ovi and Hasek and Lidstrom, and you could argue (I'd disagree) that he's the best Euro forward of all time.

 

[wetcoast]

This is an old thread and I've probably made this point before. I don't think Jagr has an argument, because of his piss poor post season play. He won two cups as a young player on teams where he wasn't even a second option. After that, many great regular seasons; but those who remember the postseasons would never rate him ahead of Ovy, Lidstrom and other European greats. Jagr is somewhere between 15-20 all-time for me. Great player and a very cool guy, but he had flaws.

Sure he has his flaws but every player in contention does as well and he does have 201 playoff points and some really good series but was on some poorly constructed teams post Mario when he was still dominant in the playoffs just couldn't get past the second round.

Sound familiar?

During his most dominant post season 3 year run he had a line of 26-17-20-37 good for 6th overall but was a commanding first in PPG over a prime Foppa.

NHL Stats

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Oh that's in addition to being by far the top dog in the regular season as well (in part due to injuries to others but still).

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

While I think it's fair to say that other guys from Europe have better individual playoff resumes can one really say that Jagr is worse than Ovechkin in this metric?

I'd say not really.

 

[Reality Czech]

No. Hasek, Fetisov, and Lidstrom.

Found the Detroit fan

 

[Fantomas]

While I think it's fair to say that other guys from Europe have better individual playoff resumes can one really say that Jagr is worse than Ovechkin in this metric?

Yes. Ask Caps fans.

Ovechkin captained his team to a Stanley Cup and won the Smythe in the process. No need to muddy the waters. The argument you are making was defeated in 2018.

 

[Randyne]

This is an old thread and I've probably made this point before. I don't think Jagr has an argument, because of his piss poor post season play. He won two cups as a young player on teams where he wasn't even a second option. After that, many great regular seasons; but those who remember the postseasons would never rate him ahead of Ovy, Lidstrom and other European greats. Jagr is somewhere between 15-20 all-time for me. Great player and a very cool guy, but he had flaws.

Yep. His best PO seasons with 23 and 24 points. 36% of them were helpers from Mario. Just two generational stars feeding each other. Just like Malkin and Sid 42% in PO 2009.

 

[Gerulaitis]

Ovechkin might claim this title in a few weeks time.

I think I could agree with the poster who picked Fetisov and Lidström over Jagr.

 

[Czechboy]

GP G A TP

One of these is a playoff hero and a Top Euro player. The other is around 15 to 20 because he sucks in playoffs.

 

[wetcoast]

Yes. Ask Caps fans.

Ovechkin captained his team to a Stanley Cup and won the Smythe in the process. No need to muddy the waters. The argument you are making was defeated in 2018.

Sure and that's the difference between Jagr and Ovi but even with that Conn Smythe do you really think that Ovi has a better individual playoff resume than Jagr?

Jagr in those 3 years is somewhat similar (arguably slightly better) to Ovi playoff wise during his peak 08-10 years.

 

[Randyne]

One of these is a playoff hero and a Top Euro player. The other is around 15 to 20 because he sucks in playoffs.

Hero with Smythe is top 4-5. The other in top 6-10, higher than Sid.

 

[wetcoast]

Yep. His best PO seasons with 23 and 24 points. 36% of them were helpers from Mario. Just two generational stars feeding each other. Just like Malkin and Sid 42% in PO 2009.

Those aren't his best playoff seasons for Christ's sake and you know that.

Just like Ovi was a better playoff performer from 08-10 than his Conn Smythe year.

Aslo 16 of his 24 points in 91-92 were non Mario assisted this "generational helper argument " is just so weak and non sensical, it's almost like Ovi played exclusively with 4th liners his entire career or something right?

Here is Jagr's 3 year peak in the dead puck era 98-00

NHL Stats

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Contrast that to Ovi during his 3 year peak 08-10

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

 

[wetcoast]

Hero with Smythe is top 4-5. The other in top 6-10, higher than Sid.

All time or playoffs, either way you would be wrong but keep being you.

Crosby has more points in the regular season and playoffs than Ovi does and it's not even really close.

But since this is a discussion about guys from Europe Jagr beats him there as well.