Is Jagr the greatest European player of all time?

[Randyne]

Aslo 16 of his 24 points in 91-92 were non Mario assisted this "generational helper argument " is just so weak and non sensical, it's almost like Ovi played exclusively with 4th liners his entire career or something right?

Why you comparing ML, JJ, SC, EM with 4th liners. They are monsters with tremendous hardware. But were feeding each other, so it's not fair.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

My bad, I misread your comment then. But yeah I do think when all is said and done Draisatl has a good chance of being ranked as the 1# European center of all time

Other players like Forsberg or Fedorov have arguments when comparing peak, but for one reason or another weren't able to have the lengthy prime Draisatl has. Malkin is probably his closest rival. But again, lacks the durability Draisatl has, and that matters in all time rankings when 2 players are very close in ability..

I wouldn't consider Malkin and Draisaitl very close in ability.

 

[Gerulaitis]

I wouldn't consider Malkin and Draisaitl very close in ability.

Neither Malkin nor Draisaitl should be considered for the No 1 European center all-time.

Fedorov, Forsberg, Larionov, Stastny and Datsyuk are top 5 ( in no particular order)

 

[wetcoast]

Why you comparing ML, JJ, SC, EM with 4th liners. They are monsters with tremendous hardware. But were feeding each other, so it's not fair.
View attachment 990006

I like how you completely omitted the 3 year peaks that i compared between Ovi and Jagr, your post is intellectually dishonest at best here.

You just keep harping on this generational helper stuff when it's nonsensical and just doesn't stand up to boot.

 

[Randyne]

I like how you completely omitted the 3 year peaks that i compared between Ovi and Jagr, your post is intellectually dishonest at best here.

You just keep harping on this generational helper stuff when it's nonsensical and just doesn't stand up to boot.

Meh. Ovechkin almost swept all awards available for forwards three years in a row.
Top 3PPG+3GPG AGAINST SidMalkin duo, who were feeding each other like crazy.
That's the best peak ever.

 

[wetcoast]

Meh. Ovechkin almost swept all awards available for forwards three years in a raw. 3PPG+3GPG.

The thing was Jagr did the same and in the playoffs as well, that was kinda the point but as usual you went somewhere else.

Also Ovi has more down playoffs than Jagr does thus this

View attachment 989997
View attachment 989998

GP G A TP

One of these is a playoff hero and a Top Euro player. The other is around 15 to 20 because he sucks in playoffs.

 

[wetcoast]

Meh. Ovechkin almost swept all awards available for forwards three years in a raw.

Top 3PPG+3GPG AGAINST SidMalkin duo, who were feeding each other like crazy.

Funny that they were doing that in 07-08 when Crosby played in only 53 games and in 09-10 when Malkin played in only 67 games eh?

You know who was feeding Ovi and all the time, Backstrom who was 11, 3r and 3 in assists those 3 seasons.

That's the best peak ever.

Ya okay that's going to help your credibility here.

 

[Randyne]

Funny that they were doing that in 07-08 when Crosby played in only 53 games and in 09-10 when Malkin played in only 67 games eh?

Per game stats don't care about amount of games. You don't know about this?
Outpacing this duo with playing more games makes Ovechkin's peak much more impressive.

 

[Felidae]

Okay then we can make 2 different metrics but a guy like Lafleur gets props for a consecutive prime and overlapping playoff resume during that prime that's what I'm getting at with draisaitl and Kuch and both are still going strong.

I tend to agree but we hve the eample of Lafleur above and contrast how Dionne is compared to Lafleur.

Other than Lafleur having more hardware, I'd say the other thing that separates them is their PO performance.

But yes, I don't think my all time ranking of Lafleur would suddenly change if his best seasons were spread out, though I'm probably in the minority here.

To be fair part of my comments are directed at how Drasital and to a lesser degree Kuch compare to Ovechkin more than Jagr but also given age and playoff resumes there is something there.

Ovechkin's longevity as an elite goalscorer might very well be the best in NHL history. Even if he stopped being an art Ross contender by 2010 and never finished top 10 in points by 29, he still lead the league in goals until 34, in addition to a few more high end goalscoring seasons afterwards. Ovechkin arguably has the better post 30 career than Jagr, so it will be even harder to beat.

The thing is that Kuch led the league last year at age 30 and is in the mix for the art ross this year so until he drops off.

Leon has the better case as he is only 29 and both guys just simply outmatch Jagr in terms of playoff production already and will probably widen their leads there.

Yup, and that's about the only thing they have over Jagr. Though Jagr still had the highest playoff PPG in his prime, his lacklustre playoff resume is more circumstantial rather than his own ability in the POs (not to say he didn't disappoint at times)

I'm not a hardware counter I look at complete pictures.

What is the "complete picture" in this context? All of the players we are discussing here are all time offensive players and judged almost solely for their offensive contributions.

Without hardware in their upcoming seasons (or at least contending for hardware) it's gonna be even more difficult for Kucherov and Draisatl to be talked about in the same breath as Jagr and Ovechkin..

I think Kuch is the least likely and has the weakest argument between Jagr/.Ovi, Draisaitl f given his age.

Perhaps but he is ahead of Kuch at the same age.

Fair enough.

 

[wetcoast]

Per game stats don't care about amount of games. You don't know about this?
Outpacing this duo with playing more games makes Ovechkin's peak much more impressive.

Once again you are having problems reading your claim was this.

Top 3PPG+3GPG AGAINST SidMalkin duo, who were feeding each other like crazy.
.

I pointed out that you can't feed the other player if you aren't playing has nothing to do with PPG.

Are you okay? I ask this seriosuly.

Funny that they were doing that in 07-08 when Crosby played in only 53 games and in 09-10 when Malkin played in only 67 games eh?

Maybe they were feeding each other in some other dimension?

You know who was feeding Ovi and all the time, Backstrom who was 11, 3r and 3 in assists those 3 seasons.

 

[Randyne]

I pointed out that you can't feed the other player if you aren't playing

If you don't remember then just use stats:

Evgeni Malkin 2008-09 Scoring Log | Hockey-Reference.com

Scoring for Evgeni Malkin for 2008-09

www.hockey-reference.com

Sid points in 2008 =72 (51GP); Malkin factored in 44.4% (32P);
Sid points in 2009 =103 (77GP); Malkin factored in 51.5% (53P);
Sid points in 2010 =109(81GP); Malkin factored in 27.5% (30P).
3 seasons:
115 helpers from Malkin out of 284 Sid points. That's 40.5%
They were feeding each other hard. And Ovechkin still outpaced them.
Jagr and other stars didn't outpace generational duos.
Only Ovechkin. The best peak ever.

 

[DavidVolek]

Why you comparing ML, JJ, SC, EM with 4th liners. They are monsters with tremendous hardware. But were feeding each other, so it's not fair.
View attachment 990006

Is this AI or actual photos, I can't even tell anymore

 

[Fantomas]

Sure and that's the difference between Jagr and Ovi but even with that Conn Smythe do you really think that Ovi has a better individual playoff resume than Jagr?

Of course he does. One guy carried his team to the cup and the other never came close. And instead of just stat watching you should read a little bit about Jagr's playoff showings with the Capitals. That is if you have no actual memory of that time (I do).

 

[Randyne]

Is this AI or actual photos, I can't even tell anymore

AI

https://grok.com/

It's free BTW

 

[DavidVolek]

AI

https://grok.com/

It's free BTW

Truly scary this stuff and how in the future regular photos won't mean anything cuz they can just be created

 

[Randyne]

Truly scary this stuff and how in the future regular photos won't mean anything cuz they can just be created

Yep. And videos soon.

 

[wetcoast]

If you don't remember then just use stats:

Evgeni Malkin 2008-09 Scoring Log | Hockey-Reference.com

Scoring for Evgeni Malkin for 2008-09

www.hockey-reference.com

Sid points in 2008 =72 (51GP); Malkin factored in 44.4% (32P);
Sid points in 2009 =103 (77GP); Malkin factored in 51.5% (53P);
Sid points in 2010 =109(81GP); Malkin factored in 27.5% (30P).
3 seasons:
115 helpers from Malkin out of 284 Sid points. That's 40.5%
They were feeding each other hard. And Ovechkin still outpaced them.
Jagr and other stars didn't outpace generational duos.
Only Ovechkin. The best peak ever.

Now run the numbers for Ovi and Backstrom and get over the best peak ever crap Gretzky Mario and McDavid all are real right?

 

[carjackmalone]

Hasek
Ovechkin
Jagr
Lidstrom
Kurri

 

[wetcoast]

Of course he does. One guy carried his team to the cup and the other never came close. And instead of just stat watching you should read a little bit about Jagr's playoff showings with the Capitals. That is if you have no actual memory of that time (I do).

Two things here.

First Ovechkin didn't carry his team to a SC as rarely does this ever happen SCs are a team accomplishment and he like Jagr had better individual performances in non SC run

But you already know that or do you want to run the numbers?

Second why are you focusing on a couple of post seasons of Jagr with the Capitals and not all of each player's playoffs

I also add that for playoff resumes other Europeans like Fedorov, Kuch, Lidstrom, Foppa and Draisaitl have better resumes than Ovi as well as Jagr.

I will do a more detailed writeup when I'm off my phone.

 

[Randyne]

Now run the numbers for Ovi and Backstrom and get over the best peak ever crap Gretzky Mario and McDavid all are real right?

Already mentioned: zero/zillion
Don't go in circles
McDrai duo is even more interdependent than SidMalkin.
Old Ovechkin was leading the league with AHLers on his back almost for a half of a season against McDrai duo a few years ago. Young Ovi would outpace them too.
Gretzky had the untouchable cheatcode and HOF roster.

 

[wetcoast]

Other than Lafleur having more hardware, I'd say the other thing that separates them is their PO performance.

I think it all comes down hardware and being on a dynasty and all of the top players from that dynasty get the benefit of the doubt in their all time rankings and that's where I push back a bit.

Also It's fine to give Lafleur thee dge in the playoffs but his team was also way better constructed and Dionne never had a PP Dman(more than one for Guy actually in Robinson and Lapointe) that helpd him in nay of his years until Larry Murphy but he had 4 of his 8 100+ plus point season by then.

100+ seasons
Guy-6
Marcel 8

90+ points
Marcel- 4
Guy-0

80+ point season

Guy-1
Marcel-1

70 point seasons 3 each.

Is the Lafleur playoff advantage, some of which was team driven worth more than Marcel havin 2 more 100 point seasons and 4 90 point seasons than Lafleur and if it is by 30+ spots all time?

But yes, I don't think my all time ranking of Lafleur would suddenly change if his best seasons were spread out, though I'm probably in the minority here.

I think that you would be in the minority as consistency should mean something but not sure how much.

Ovechkin's longevity as an elite goalscorer might very well be the best in NHL history. Even if he stopped being an art Ross contender by 2010 and never finished top 10 in points by 29, he still lead the league in goals until 34, in addition to a few more high end goalscoring seasons afterwards.

Sure but he also became more of a goalscorer and sacrificed total offense at least in part.

Ovechkin arguably has the better post 30 career than Jagr, so it will be even harder to beat.

I dunno it looks pretty close although the russian years do cloud it up a bit but Jagr has those 2 years in his 40s and his top points adjusted season post 30 so 31+ are
123
96
74
71
67
66
54
47
46


Is Ovi post 30 really that much better with

90
88
87
81
76
71
64
64
63

Sure all in all even with the russian year one might say that Ovechkin is ahead but 30 and under it has to be Jagr right?

Ovi has 5 100+ point seasons adjusted 104-122 points
Jagr has 6 100+ point seasons including 2 at 140+, one at 131,

In addition Jagr has 3 more 90 point seasons and one 80 point one and one more 70, 60 and 50 point season.

Ovi has 30 more 90 point seasons, 2 80s and one 70.

Pretty hard to say it's not an advantage for Jagr there right?

The big difference being the extra 100 point season and by far the higher cumulative in the top 5 100 point seasons to begin with.

Yup, and that's about the only thing they have over Jagr. Though Jagr still had the highest playoff PPG in his prime, his lacklustre playoff resume is more circumstantial rather than his own ability in the POs (not to say he didn't disappoint at times).

Like I said I think Jagr has a better playoff resume that Ovi but lags behind in no order Foppa, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Kuch and Drasital but I'll expand upon that in a different post.

What is the "complete picture" in this context? All of the players we are discussing here are all time offensive players and judged almost solely for their offensive contributions.

Comparing everything means just that, the highs the lows, consistency and length of prime, 3 year peak, playoffs, what do they bring besides scoring (relevant for Lidstrom and Foppa even Fedorov)

Without hardware in their upcoming seasons (or at least contending for hardware) it's gonna be even more difficult for Kucherov and Draisatl to be talked about in the same breath as Jagr and Ovechkin.

I'm not a hardware counter and context is needed as well in that with a player like McDavid there and even Mack to some extent trophies don't tell the whole story, I'd rather talk about trophy worthy runs and compare all the highs and lows.

 

[Fantomas]

Two things here.

First Ovechkin didn't carry his team to a SC

Sure Jan

 

[wetcoast]

Already mentioned: zero/zillion

Don't go in circles

I'm not you are the one sidetracking things so you won't do the numbers for Ovi/Backstrom in that peak 3 years, no wonder why eh?

McDrai duo is even more interdependent than SidMalkin.

Sure except when McDavid is out Draisatl actually continues producing so nice narrative that simply isn't back up by the data yet once again.

Old Ovechkin was leading the league with AHLers on his back almost for a half of a season against McDrai duo a few years ago. Young Ovi would outpace them too.

AHLers, really?

do you mean 21-22 where Ovi ended up 20 points behind Drai and 33 behind McDavid and when one looks at adjusted points Ovi's peak is 122,117 and 114 points.

McDavid has a 3 year consecutive peak of 158, 118, 146

Do you really expect people to take this statement seriously?

Gretzky had the untouchable cheatcode and HOF roster.

What about Mario?

Gordie Howe?

Bobby Orr?

Jagr?

Drai?

Mack?

Hey I wasn't the one claiming best peak ever, you were and it's demonstrably wrong.

 

[wetcoast]

Sure Jan

He was 5 points behind Kuz in scoring and like I said most SC teams don't have any one or even 2 players carrying the team to the SC.

Five 20 point players for the caps that playoffs yet the guy who scored in second place by 5 points and had another guy with 18 points and then one with 15?

Sure Jan.

 

[Goptor]

Why you comparing ML, JJ, SC, EM with 4th liners. They are monsters with tremendous hardware. But were feeding each other, so it's not fair.
View attachment 990006

Sidney Crosby looks like someone who eats off the handle of a spoon.