Is it time for a Canadian only professional hockey league?

[Golden_Jet]

Huh?
Players getting full signing bonus contracts salary caps a retirement contracts started in 2013….

Teams could outspend or add cheater years on before…. Since they learned to exploit the loophole it has been way over represented

Okay then start with the salary cap in 2005

 

[Butsy Erickson]

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Man, he had amazing hair.

 

[Albatros]

When 3 of the top5 teams revenue-wise seem to be Canadian (see link) I do not think that a Canadian league would be on par with SPHL... Actually, a Canadian league may even have a higher salary cap than the NHL.

USA is not really that big of a market when it comes to NHL.

Realistically a Canadian league would be a new challenger that would attract talent from the AHL that didn't make the big league and prefer to stay closer to home instead of moving to Europe. Very optimistically salaries might rival those in Switzerland, and would need to as the league would still involve a lot of travel.

 

[WarriorofTime]

When 3 of the top5 teams revenue-wise seem to be Canadian (see link) I do not think that a Canadian league would be on par with SPHL... Actually, a Canadian league may even have a higher salary cap than the NHL.

USA is not really that big of a market when it comes to NHL.

Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver aren't leaving the NHL, lol. Those places look at their peers as places like New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago, Los Angeles... as much as Lady Stanley may believe that Halifax, Hamilton and Regina are the pinnacle of civilization, they'd rather play with the former group.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Are you like literally Paul Bissonette?

They literally changed the draft rules when they saw what the Oilers did.

You literally are describing the textbook example about how the league is dead set on not letting Canadian teams get ahead.

You come to this thread continually making up straw man arguments or leaching onto the worst posts in a string of messages to come up with a narrative.

the league isn't doing sneaky things behind the scenes, they're outright telling you they're doing these things, again and again.

Thing is I know you're not stupid, you know deep down that what is is. You spend too much time talking about sports where you're entitled to get on with irrational super bias short sighted opinions.

But take an external viewpoint like you're actually trying to keep a job and look respectable.

You mean changing the draft lotto AFTER Edmonton already got all of their high-end talent via the draft?

Yeah, poor Edmonton, got all the benefits of being terrible and then got to pull the ladder up so nobody else would follow their uhh... "model".

Someone said McDavid had to go to Edmonton or Buffalo, no idea what they're talking about. Edmonton had the third best odds at McDavid. It was Buffalo - 20.0 %, Arizona - 13.5 %, Edmonton - 11.5 %, Toronto - 9.5 %, Carolina - 8.5 %, New Jersey - 7.5 %, Philadelphia - 6.5 %, Columbus - 6.0 %, San Jose - 5.0 %, Colorado - 3.5 %, Florida - 3.0 %, Dallas - 2.5 %, Los Angeles - 2.0 % and Boston - 1.0 %

Poor Edmonton got so screwed over by.... getting McDavid when they only had an 11.5 % chance to get him. How will they ever survive with Mean Ol' Gary against them like that?

Plenty of options to rig the lotto to ensure that a generational talent ended up playing somewhere other than a small Canadian city that had already picked first overall three straight years that decade, if the NHL was just rigging things against these Canadian cities.

Like come on, Lady Stanley, at least get your facts right if you are going to spew this sort of vitriol.

 

[Legion34]

No, 2 of the last 4 finals being no-tax teams is not an anomaly. You do understand that the no-state tax states have been that way for a long time, right?

I didn't stop talking about numbers and odds, but it seems like a waste of time to talk about them with someone who clearly doesn't understand them. Not to mention state taxes or the jock tax either.

You've already drawn your conclusion and are using flawed logic and deeply flawed statistical analysis to try and support it. There's really no point in discussing it with someone who already has their mind made up and is holding up random events as proof. I might as well be arguing with a flat-earther.

Flat earthers ignore clear evidence. Kinda sounds like you.
You.

18% of the league being in 85% of the cups is an anamoly. Multiple teams multiple GMs, multiple stages of rebuilds or even expansion.

I would suggest you educate yourself on the issue. There are plenty of actual published articles/podcasts discussing this exact issue

I would suggest you research Lewis gross, who says that he gives his players spread sheets and shows how much money they get take home in his contract in different markets. Jeff Petry whose agent even said there are differences in Canada and showed how much money he lost in montreal from Edmonton. Mike weaver, mark methot, Alex tuch who all said they made much more in no state tax markets. David Poile openly admitted
To using tax differences and calling them “Nashville dollars”.

There are accountants who have written articles
In the athletic showing how the exact same contracr
Would work in Canada as a Canadian, american and European.

The Gavin sports group gives a calculator.

Americans don’t understand the unique Canadian tax mark et. But just FYI

1.) signing bonuses are paid out in your home location. Not on the road.
2.) jock taxes are completely different in Canada. Even if you are an American you can’t own property/cars etc to try to claim American residency. Euros and Canadians have no chance

That’s why you will see a crazy statisical anomaly that all the star players in Dallas, Tampa, Florida nashville etc all take 11-12% of the cap.

When comparable star players take 14-15%. Which just so happens to be the exact difference in net income. Surprise!!

It’s not weather (La/SJ/Anaheim), winning/prestige big markets (detroit Chicago NYR, Toronto, Montreal) or GMs. (Yzerman in detroit vs Tampa)

No tax players who signed for 11-12: vasy point stamkos Petro, benn, seguin, heiskanen, barkov, tkachuk

Tax markets: kopitar, doughty, karlson, price, panarin etc.

Yzerman could get stamkos to
Take 11% of the cap…. But gave chairot and lowry
Massive money.

You are wrong. According to agents gms
Accountants and players. 10 minutes on google
Would help

Okay then start with the salary cap in 2005

??? The teams were able to sign long term cheater
Contracts until 2013 remember?

Hossa etc signed extra years and took more front loaded
Money on big teams. Look at the contracts guys were
Getting 15 million and retiring.

The small teams complained. Loophole got closed. Boom.

 

[Dirtyf1ghter]

i say this because i feel with bettman calling the shots, i don't see canadian nhl teams have a chance to win..

i believe its time for canadians to create their own professional hockey league just like the CFL...

in this professional league, the salaries will be lower and the ticket prices will be affordable for families...

i say to canadians let the NHL go with its pro american business mindset...and embrace a new league that will cater to hockey crazed canadians..

Just convinced of one thing: that OHL, WHL and LHJMQ become senior professional leagues with a Junior section.

For lots of reasons. In particular so that players who are too strong for the Junior can continue to develop in a senior league.

The current scheme condemns the CHL to decline since more and more Canadians go to the USA to benefit from the USHL/NCAA formula, which is more interesting for development between 18 and 20 years old.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Flat earthers ignore clear evidence. Kinda sounds like you.
You.

18% of the league being in 85% of the cups is an anamoly. Multiple teams multiple GMs, multiple stages of rebuilds or even expansion.

I would suggest you educate yourself on the issue. There are plenty of actual published articles/podcasts discussing this exact issue

I would suggest you research Lewis gross, who says that he gives his players spread sheets and shows how much money they get take home in his contract in different markets. Jeff Petry whose agent even said there are differences in Canada and showed how much money he lost in montreal from Edmonton. Mike weaver, mark methot, Alex tuch who all said they made much more in no state tax markets. David Poile openly admitted
To using tax differences and calling them “Nashville dollars”.

There are accountants who have written articles
In the athletic showing how the exact same contracr
Would work in Canada as a Canadian, american and European.

The Gavin sports group gives a calculator.

Americans don’t understand the unique Canadian tax mark et. But just FYI

1.) signing bonuses are paid out in your home location. Not on the road.
2.) jock taxes are completely different in Canada. Even if you are an American you can’t own property/cars etc to try to claim American residency. Euros and Canadians have no chance

That’s why you will see a crazy statisical anomaly that all the star players in Dallas, Tampa, Florida nashville etc all take 11-12% of the cap.

When comparable star players take 14-15%. Which just so happens to be the exact difference in net income. Surprise!!

It’s not weather (La/SJ/Anaheim), winning/prestige big markets (detroit Chicago NYR, Toronto, Montreal) or GMs. (Yzerman in detroit vs Tampa)

No tax players who signed for 11-12: vasy point stamkos Petro, benn, seguin, heiskanen, barkov, tkachuk

Tax markets: kopitar, doughty, karlson, price, panarin etc.

Yzerman could get stamkos to
Take 11% of the cap…. But gave chairot and lowry
Massive money.

You are wrong. According to agents gms
Accountants and players. 10 minutes on google
Would help



??? The teams were able to sign long term cheater
Contracts until 2013 remember?

Hossa etc signed extra years and took more front loaded
Money on big teams. Look at the contracts guys were
Getting 15 million and retiring.

The small teams complained. Loophole got closed. Boom.

So much wrong with this post lol.
Don’t think you understand the huge tax breaks Matthew’s gets with 95% signing bonus, he’s paying less tax than the no tax states.

 

[Lady Stanley]

Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver aren't leaving the NHL, lol. Those places look at their peers as places like New York, Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago, Los Angeles...

I never once claimed that Toronto would follow suite.

You continue to fabricate things out of thin air.

One minute you're comparing the league to SPHL the next the NHL, why does your mind jump to such extremes?

The dozen team league idea is pretty consistently based on the very strong CHL markets.
.
EDIT: misread the quotes, but it doesn't change what I said.

as much as Lady Stanley may believe that Halifax, Hamilton and Regina are the pinnacle of civilization, they'd rather play with the former group.

Again continuing to fabricate things. You're the defining black and white thinking in a way better than any professional can.

Quite literally said numerous times that these are mid sized cities. You have an emotional attachment to either ors. The OHL comfortably operates in towns with literally 1/10th the size. Most of these cities are too small for NHL teams. They don't have billions to throw at a team, but they have more than a few million.

Franchise values of 100-200 million per is reasonable, a national deal worth $120 a year is a reasonable target based on the CFL contract. There's a ton of potential owners who've been priced out of the NHL/MLS/NBA.

There's also the major networks, who want content that is a cheaper alternative to the major leagues. Not to mention a broadcaster like the CBC who might opt for something they can control.



This wouldn't be a replacement for the NHL. It'd be comparable to the Swedish national league with a bit more revenue coming in. Most fans would probably still watch the NHL, just as OHL fans still watch both.

You can continually thrash about trying to hear what you want to, but this in middle tier cities has been talked about again and again. CPL/CFL fans both are familiar with the numbers.

 

[Golden_Jet]

I never once claimed that Toronto would follow suite.

You continue to fabricate things out of thin air.

One minute you're comparing the league to SPHL the next the NHL, why does your mind jump to such extremes?

The dozen team league idea is pretty consistently based on the very strong CHL markets.
.





Again continuing to fabricate things. You're the defining black and white thinking in a way better than any professional can.

Quite literally said numerous times that these are mid sized cities. You have an emotional attachment to either ors. The OHL comfortably operates in towns with literally 1/10th the size. Most of these cities are too small for NHL teams. They don't have billions to throw at a team, but they have more than a few million.

Franchise values of 100-200 million per is reasonable, a national deal worth $120 a year is a reasonable target based on the CFL contract. There's a ton of potential owners who've been priced out of the NHL/MLS/NBA.

There's also the major networks, who want content that is a cheaper alternative to the major leagues. Not to mention a broadcaster like the CBC who might opt for something they can control.



This wouldn't be a replacement for the NHL. It'd be comparable to the Swedish national league with a bit more revenue coming in. Most fans would probably still watch the NHL, just as OHL fans still watch both.

You can continually thrash about trying to hear what you want to, but this in middle tier cities has been talked about again and again. CPL/CFL fans both are familiar with the numbers.

Wouldn’t fly, in Canada, who’s paying for the stadiums, woud only get mostly local view ship, everyone else will watch the 7 NHL teams, as they’re not leaving.
Be like the XFL or whatever they call it now in the US.

 

[Lady Stanley]

You mean changing the draft lotto AFTER Edmonton already got all of their high-end talent via the draft?

Yeah, poor Edmonton, got all the benefits of being terrible and then got to pull the ladder up so nobody else would follow their uhh... "model".

Someone said McDavid had to go to Edmonton or Buffalo, no idea what they're talking about. Edmonton had the third best odds at McDavid. It was Buffalo - 20.0 %, Arizona - 13.5 %, Edmonton - 11.5 %, Toronto - 9.5 %, Carolina - 8.5 %, New Jersey - 7.5 %, Philadelphia - 6.5 %, Columbus - 6.0 %, San Jose - 5.0 %, Colorado - 3.5 %, Florida - 3.0 %, Dallas - 2.5 %, Los Angeles - 2.0 % and Boston - 1.0 %

Poor Edmonton got so screwed over by.... getting McDavid when they only had an 11.5 % chance to get him. How will they ever survive with Mean Ol' Gary against them like that?

Plenty of options to rig the lotto to ensure that a generational talent ended up playing somewhere other than a small Canadian city that had already picked first overall three straight years that decade, if the NHL was just rigging things against these Canadian cities.

Like come on, Lady Stanley, at least get your facts right if you are going to spew this sort of vitriol.

Congrats this is the first time you said something that makes sense.

 

[BardownMagic]

Realistically a Canadian league would be a new challenger that would attract talent from the AHL that didn't make the big league and prefer to stay closer to home instead of moving to Europe. Very optimistically salaries might rival those in Switzerland, and would need to as the league would still involve a lot of travel.

Not if the players bought it themselves to make a player salary and take ownership’s share. You might have a pool of the best talent in the world with the NHL second.

 

[Legion34]

So much wrong with this post lol.
Don’t think you understand the huge tax breaks Matthew’s gets with 95% signing bonus, he’s paying less tax than the no tax states.

Not exactly. This has been covered. It depends on when he comes to Canada, how long they last in the playoffs (if they play Montreal) endorsements etc. if he has properlty
Cars etc here

He has to prove every year that his financial ties are greater to the states. Which is a nightmare and very hard to do with Canadian endorsements etc. This has been covered by tax pros in published articles.

If you work more then half the year in Canada it’s a reverse onus and it doesn’t always work


The general consensus is most can do it for a year. And it’s no gaurantee.

Feel free to ignore the agents GMs players first hand accounts of the siturarion

And the clear distinction in AAV between markets based on taxes

 

[Lady Stanley]

Wouldn’t fly, in Canada, who’s paying for the stadiums,

As far as I know they're all already built in use by the CHL. The only place I can think of that doesn't have one is Kitchener, and my understand is they'll probably build a bigger better arena regardless of hockey.

Wouldn’t fly, in Canada, who’s paying for the stadiums, woud only get mostly local view ship,

local viewership is still a lot of viewership, that assuming the bigger markets are skipped altogether.

everyone else will watch the 7 NHL teams, as they’re not leaving.

They leave all the time, they come back but they leave all the time.

You could also stagger the seasons so the c-league playoffs are completely before the NHL playoffs start.

Be like the XFL or whatever they call it now in the US.

You can't compare Canada to the US it is literally the worst comparison you can make, unless you're comparing it to college football. Which yes would be directly comparable. The league would probably be directly comparable to division 1 football in terms of regional relevance.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Not exactly. This has been covered. It depends on when he comes to Canada, how long they last in the playoffs (if they play Montreal) endorsements etc. if he has properlty
Cars etc here

He has to prove every year that his financial ties are greater to the states. Which is a nightmare. This has been covered by tax pros in published articles.

The general consensus is most can do it for a year. And it’s no gaurantee.

Feel free to ignore the agents GMs players first hand accounts of the siturarion

And the clear distinction in AAV between markets based on taxes

Lol agents have publicly spoken about American players with a US residence during off season, and the great break for Americans playing in Canada. (Especially if signing bonus)
(During the season, probably 1/3 of time in US) Signing bonus is taxed at 15% up to a limit, about half of total, then there are other breaks, can’t recall the name of it, it’s been beaten to death in the mains and business forum. So I’m not rehashing it all.
Cheers, onto another thread.

As far as I know they're all already built in use by the CHL. The only place I can think of that doesn't have one is Kitchener, and my understand is they'll probably build a bigger better arena regardless of hockey.


local viewership is still a lot of viewership, that assuming the bigger markets are skipped altogether.



They leave all the time, they come back but they leave all the time.

You could also stagger the seasons so the c-league playoffs are completely before the NHL playoffs start.







You can't compare Canada to the US it is literally the worst comparison you can make, unless you're comparing it to college football. Which yes would be directly comparable. The league would probably be directly comparable to division 1 football in terms of regional relevance.

No. this new league to the NHL would be like the XFL to NFL viewership and attendance wise.

 

[Lady Stanley]

No. this new league to the NHL would be like the XFL to NFL viewership and attendance wise.

The model were talking would be closer to creating a division 1 for the CHL.

Existing arenas/merch/teams and have the top 4ish from each league playing together.

So it would be closer to division 1 football.

You'd of course pay the players, increase the age limits etc.

 

[Golden_Jet]

The model were talking would be closer to creating a division 1 for the CHL.

Existing arenas/merch/teams and have the top 4ish from each league playing together.

So it would be closer to division 1 football.

You'd of course pay the players, increase the age limits etc.

Sure okay, like they’re getting division 1 numbers lmao. Some division 1 games get more crowds than NFL games.

 

[Lady Stanley]

Sure okay, like they’re getting division 1 numbers lmao. Some division 1 games get more crowds than NFL games.

Cities of similar size obviously. And yes I could imagine a QC game getting better attendance in the playoffs etc than some regular season NHL games.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

So I noticed this thread is still going

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Statistically, a lot more teams should have made the Finals.

if all other things were equal. Which they're not.

Flat earthers ignore clear evidence. Kinda sounds like you.
You.

18% of the league being in 85% of the cups is an anamoly. Multiple teams multiple GMs, multiple stages of rebuilds or even expansion.

I would suggest you educate yourself on the issue. There are plenty of actual published articles/podcasts discussing this exact issue

I would suggest you research Lewis gross, who says that he gives his players spread sheets and shows how much money they get take home in his contract in different markets. Jeff Petry whose agent even said there are differences in Canada and showed how much money he lost in montreal from Edmonton. Mike weaver, mark methot, Alex tuch who all said they made much more in no state tax markets. David Poile openly admitted
To using tax differences and calling them “Nashville dollars”.

There are accountants who have written articles
In the athletic showing how the exact same contracr
Would work in Canada as a Canadian, american and European.

The Gavin sports group gives a calculator.

Americans don’t understand the unique Canadian tax mark et. But just FYI

1.) signing bonuses are paid out in your home location. Not on the road.
2.) jock taxes are completely different in Canada. Even if you are an American you can’t own property/cars etc to try to claim American residency. Euros and Canadians have no chance

That’s why you will see a crazy statisical anomaly that all the star players in Dallas, Tampa, Florida nashville etc all take 11-12% of the cap.

When comparable star players take 14-15%. Which just so happens to be the exact difference in net income. Surprise!!

It’s not weather (La/SJ/Anaheim), winning/prestige big markets (detroit Chicago NYR, Toronto, Montreal) or GMs. (Yzerman in detroit vs Tampa)

No tax players who signed for 11-12: vasy point stamkos Petro, benn, seguin, heiskanen, barkov, tkachuk

Tax markets: kopitar, doughty, karlson, price, panarin etc.

Yzerman could get stamkos to
Take 11% of the cap…. But gave chairot and lowry
Massive money.

You are wrong. According to agents gms
Accountants and players. 10 minutes on google
Would help



??? The teams were able to sign long term cheater
Contracts until 2013 remember?

Hossa etc signed extra years and took more front loaded
Money on big teams. Look at the contracts guys were
Getting 15 million and retiring.

The small teams complained. Loophole got closed. Boom.

"you're ignoring the evidence!"

proceeds to present all sorts of flawed logic and anecdotal evidence...

The no-state tax thing is totally overblown, but if that's the excuse that let's you sleep at night, you do you.

 

[WarriorofTime]

The model were talking would be closer to creating a division 1 for the CHL.

Existing arenas/merch/teams and have the top 4ish from each league playing together.

So it would be closer to division 1 football.

You'd of course pay the players, increase the age limits etc.

you seem to think these baby cities all want to ditch Junior Hockey so they can watch shitty minor pro hockey, I'm telling you that's not the case. The junior teams are more popular and will make it hard for the shitty pro teams to draw

 

[Albatros]

Not if the players bought it themselves to make a player salary and take ownership’s share. You might have a pool of the best talent in the world with the NHL second.

You'd have one team in Hamilton and another in Saskatoon, travel costs (and times) would be quite significant. Some Canadian players would still prefer it overseas where you have a much easier schedule and the money is still good. Few foreign players would come over. It's not an easy task.

 

[BardownMagic]

Not exactly. This has been covered. It depends on when he comes to Canada, how long they last in the playoffs (if they play Montreal) endorsements etc. if he has properlty
Cars etc here

He has to prove every year that his financial ties are greater to the states. Which is a nightmare and very hard to do with Canadian endorsements etc. This has been covered by tax pros in published articles.

If you work more then half the year in Canada it’s a reverse onus and it doesn’t always work


The general consensus is most can do it for a year. And it’s no gaurantee.

Feel free to ignore the agents GMs players first hand accounts of the siturarion

And the clear distinction in AAV between markets based on taxes

You'd have one team in Hamilton and another in Saskatoon, travel costs (and times) would be quite significant. Some Canadian players would still prefer it overseas where you have a much easier schedule and the money is still good. Few foreign players would come over. It's not an easy task.

I am focused ona doomsday scenario where the mcdavids/crosbys/ovechkins/kucherovs of the world decide to create a league in canada that they own for their own financial benefit. Under this system the nhl teams are no longer operating in canada and the big cities would be the locations.

 

[Legion34]

if all other things were equal. Which they're not.


"you're ignoring the evidence!"

proceeds to present all sorts of flawed logic and anecdotal evidence...

The no-state tax thing is totally overblown, but if that's the excuse that let's you sleep at night, you do you.

Yes the specific and direct quotations and numbers of agents GMs accountants…. The people who actually cash the checks, negotiate the salaries and do the accounting are flawed evidence.

The continued and indisputable high correlation between star players talking 11-12% instead of 14-15% which just so happens to exactly mirror the suggested take home pay in low vs high tax markets is coincidence

And the incredibly statistically unlikely occurrence that 18% of the league with this unique advantsgr has been to the final 6 of 7 years is just random chance
Sounds like the earth is pretty flat over there