Is Finland a Top 3 Hockey Nation

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Sorry, the whole hockey world outside of finland gave them no chance of winning. They had the 5th 6th best odds for winning by all betting houses. Sweden was third at 6-1, usa was 8-1, then finland was 20-1. If people thought that finland would win one of these every 20 times, they would have bet it down, but guess what they stayed at that level on par with what the Czechs and swiss were and not what the usa and Russians were. Ok, that is betting houses.

I'm willing to bet that the betting odds more closely reflect the relative "strength" of the teams better than the IIHF rankings do at any given point, actually, and I'm surprised you're the first to bring them into the conversation.

 

[hitmen19]

Bold words from someone whose country has won only 1 best on best almost 20 years ago. The truth is that if the hockeys "superpowers" underestimate finns, they'll get burnt. But I think that the actual players do not underestimate Finland anymore. Fans however do.

sorry, wrong country. my country has won almost everything on a best on best level including 3 of last 4 gold medals

You and thinking is not a very good mix.

I live in Canada, I have a pretty good idea how they view it. It's not that.

you live in Canada and don't acknowledge that evey Canadian considers the us to be a more formidable foe then finland? Really? Canadians easily consider usa to be our main rival and hardest challenge now.

Czechia won a best-on-best in 2005.

the Czech talk should be in the 7th to 10th best countries now.

Uh-nuh, kiddo. Now you just shot wide past the argument. I didn't say a single frakkin' word about winning. Most people gave Finland no chance to medal, and that includes YOU.
And there's no reason to mix winning into this thread anyway, since it's about Finland being (approximately) 3rd, not about them being the best. The third best team in a single tournament is the one that comes third, grabs the bronze. The third best team in a string of tournaments is the one that most steadily gets close to that seeding. One does need some gold to be the best, but one does NOT necessarily need gold to be 3rd best - all they have to do is to be 3rd, or close.

Pre-tournament, it was all paper rankings and dismissal of the fact that things on ice rarely go exactly as they are. Now, there are tons of people with eggs on their faces. And in order to save some face, trying to explain Finland's relative success as yet another best-of-one fluke is suddenly a hugely popular stance. "Yes, my calculations were off... but it's totally not my fault!" is a catch phrase usually associated to weathervane politicians, but looks like they're not the only kind to make good use of it.

you guys are better at proving my point then I am. You just said, you didn't think about winning, you are just talking about medaling. The usa and Russia would only consider the tournament a success if they won. Go look at Vancouver, no one in the usa ever feels proud of the silver, they just wanted the gold. Finland is just always so happy with the bronze, as evident on this thread

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

You are just making stuff up here. I never claimed anything like this. You seem to like making personal attacks and coming up with straw men. Good argumentation skills mate!

Trust me, you get used to it.

 

[cryssarn]

sorry, wrong country. my country has won almost everything on a best on best level including 3 of last 4 gold medals



you live in Canada and don't acknowledge that evey Canadian considers the us to be a more formidable foe then finland? Really? Canadians easily consider usa to be our main rival and hardest challenge now.



the Czech talk should be in the 7th to 10th best countries now.



you guys are better at proving my point then I am. You just said, you didn't think about winning, you are just talking about medaling. The usa and Russia would only consider the tournament a success if they won. Go look at Vancouver, no one in the usa ever feels proud of the silver, they just wanted the gold. Finland is just always so happy with the bronze, as evident on this thread

Yeah, I bet that the Russians prefer this result over the bronze.
Btw, after the loss of 2006...a lot of finnish players were so disappointed that they said that the would throw the silver away. No dancing in the streets, no celebrations....just misery
oh, If USA only count wins, they have not been successful in a very long time. Sweden would count as more successful then, and maybe even the czechs....and I KNOW that the swedes would take the bronze over a QF loss in 2010

 

[Sabane]

you guys are better at proving my point then I am. You just said, you didn't think about winning, you are just talking about medaling. The usa and Russia would only consider the tournament a success if they won. Go look at Vancouver, no one in the usa ever feels proud of the silver, they just wanted the gold. Finland is just always so happy with the bronze, as evident on this thread

This is a thread about Finns to be #3 ir not. Nothing to do Finns willingness to win (they did btw) Would it make Switzerland a better team than Finland if they say "if we aint first we're last" and then ending somewhere like 7th? Just like USA or Russia.

 

[Ninjas In Pajamas*]

Absolutely they are. In fact I'd put them anywhere between 2-4 depending on how the US and Sweden are faring.
A country with ~5 million people and can produce the talent they do? Without a doubt the best "value" (if you will) for a country.

 

[FiLe]

you guys are better at proving my point then I am. You just said, you didn't think about winning, you are just talking about medaling. The usa and Russia would only consider the tournament a success if they won. Go look at Vancouver, no one in the usa ever feels proud of the silver, they just wanted the gold. Finland is just always so happy with the bronze, as evident on this thread

What frakkin' point? All you do is rave about "nothing but winning is a failure", which has absolutely NOTHING to do with the point of this thread. Which is to evaluate Finland's position as related to the rest of the competition. Unless you are truly saying that not possessing that "Gold or Bust" attitude somehow makes them inferior - despite craving for that big win as bad as the rest of them. If that truly is all you have, I have to paraphrase a certain literary detective and ask: What the frak is wrong with you Canadians?

Jeez. Everyone says these folks are some of the most kind, laid-back people the face of this Earth has ever graced. But turn the topic to hockey, and they turn into raving megalomaniacs.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

What the frak is wrong with you Canadians?

Jeez. Everyone says these folks are some of the most kind, laid-back people the face of this Earth has ever graced. But turn the topic to hockey, and they turn into raving megalomaniacs.

I assure you that's just your inferiority complex speaking. If Finnish fans would stop painting themselves as the targets of some kind of injustice, and take the opinions for what they are (as the thread is intended) and respond without the insults (which is the part that's giving you guys the biggest challenge), you wouldn't find nearly as much to get so uptight about.

 

[psycho_dad*]

you live in Canada and don't acknowledge that evey Canadian considers the us to be a more formidable foe then finland? Really? Canadians easily consider usa to be our main rival and hardest challenge now.

Reading comprehemsion helps tremendously. I pointed out earlier that:

A) If you went to the street and asked Canadians which countries they think are #2 and #3 after Canada, they would say USA and Russia.

B) This view is of course absolutely false, and is not backed by any results. This is a result of these two being your big rivals, not because they have earned their place as 2nd and 3rd. They are overrated in Canada, because of the rivalries. Every time Canada plays against USA or Russia, there's something special about it to Canadians, and they mistake this to be "because they are the best opponents" which they clearly are not since they aren't even close to Sweden and Finland in any meaningful metric when it comes to the best on best olympics.

I told you guys already, appeal to popularity is a LOGICAL FALLACY. Look it up. Just because majority of Canadian hockey fans THINK that those two are the next best, doesn't mean they are. These people simply do not know that Sweden and Finland easily trump both USA and Russia in comparison, or they have come up with their own reasons to overrate USA and Russia. Reasons that are not based on anything factual, any results.

It really doesn't matter what the average Joe thinks, or what this poll says, this is all just opinion based. Opinions can be anything, you can rank them by any made up metric you can come up with and put more weight on that than anything else and rank them any way your heart desires, since it's just your opinion.

Results are results. There is absolutely no way you can justify ranking USA or Russia ahead of Finland, if you go by actual results like you are supposed to in sports.

Yes, I understand that you guys are just as much under this spell as the average Joe, so much so that you would argue with your fictional criteria against real world results and unchangeable facts for days. That is how strong is the power of self deception.

Like I have stated many times, there's no point in this conversation anymore. Facts have been laid out, they clearly prove the rankings and how the teams have fared against eachother. Whatever it is that you guys are arguing, that's all completely secondary and meaningless when it comes to hockey. Hockey is played on the ice by the teams, not on your speculations and opinions. Those opinions, as much as you have the right to have them, are completely meaningless in ranking sports teams. Yes, you can have your imaginary rank based on your imaginary criteria, but games and tournaments are always decided on the ice, playing against eachother and the one who scores more goals wins the game.

Do we have an understanding?

 

[psycho_dad*]

I assure you that's just your inferiority complex speaking. If Finnish fans would stop painting themselves as the targets of some kind of injustice, and take the opinions for what they are (as the thread is intended) and respond without the insults (which is the part that's giving you guys the biggest challenge), you wouldn't find nearly as much to get so uptight about.

Well we do, we have stated that you are fighting facts, real world results with your opinions and as such they are completely meaningless. I have told you many times in this thread that if these things were decided by your opinions or anyone elses opinions then there would be no need to play any games, just send the vote in on text message and see who wins the popularity contest.

Results are the only thing that matters, but you have managed to argue against results for days with your opinion. If you think your opinion, or general opinion based on ignorance is somehow an important metric to determine winners in sports events, then good luck to you. It will never happen, but at least you tried, right?

 

[FiLe]

I assure you that's just your inferiority complex speaking. If Finnish fans would stop painting themselves as the targets of some kind of injustice, and take the opinions for what they are (as the thread is intended) and respond without the insults (which is the part that's giving you guys the biggest challenge), you wouldn't find nearly as much to get so uptight about.

It's relatively easy to generate complexes when there are people telling in your face that you really shouldn't feel happy about the bronze - at least not if you wish to be part of the big boys' club.

If that really is the case, I've got to say that you can keep your club then. As obviously a requirement of membership is the complete loss of your ability to enjoy the little things in life and positive outlook of it in general.

Thank you. Genuinely. All my feelings of inferiority have just been wiped away. And replaced with nothing but pity towards you guys.

 

[cryssarn]

I assure you that's just your inferiority complex speaking. If Finnish fans would stop painting themselves as the targets of some kind of injustice, and take the opinions for what they are (as the thread is intended) and respond without the insults (which is the part that's giving you guys the biggest challenge), you wouldn't find nearly as much to get so uptight about.

The discussion is doomed from the start. The thread is about being number 3....but Russia and USA is too good to compete for it? It does not make any sense. Last medal from Russia was 2002....last finals in 98....since then it's been two QF losses and one 4th. They have great players, but no great results lately. What we COULD do is ask; Do Finland have a top 3 roster? No, they don't. But the game is not played on paper....other teams can't just flash their roster and say "yeah, we can't be bothered with actually play...but our roster have a lot of great names on it"
No, Finland do NOT think bronze is equal to gold or silver.
YES, Finland will take bronze over 4th...and they are ready to battle for it. Sweden would too, and I'm sure Russia would prefer it over this result. You can't always win, but if you lose and still have one game left, you dust yourself off and do your best to win it for your country....that's your JOB

 

[psycho_dad*]

I'm willing to bet that the betting odds more closely reflect the relative "strength" of the teams better than the IIHF rankings do at any given point, actually, and I'm surprised you're the first to bring them into the conversation.

Don't quit your day job or school, whatever.

You need to understand what affects the betting lines before you should invest money in it. And you need to be absolutely about results, percentage and not at all about your feelings or opinions if you want to make any money out of it in the long run.

And you clearly can't differentiate between feelings and reality, so it's definitely not a job for you.

 

[salsa man]

The last 3 Olympics, they've finished 2nd, 3rd, and 3rd.

Can't argue against that.

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

Canada/Sweden/USA

 

[psycho_dad*]

lol, im Canadian, and we have won 3 of the last 4 gold medals, what excuses are we making.

Someone was making excuses for Canada losing the bronze game in Nagano. Was it you?

The losers are you who are making excuses as in we only lost in ot, so we are better because other teams lost by more bs.

That is no excuse to say "we lost in OT, the other team lost in regulation". That is called an OBSERVATION. When you take two real life events and observe what happens in them and then you compare them...

To me it matters none if we lost in OT or regulation or by how many goals (well of course it's always better if it's close). I don't really understand where you were going with this, but you need to understand the difference between excuse and observation

Example of an Excuse: "Our guys just didn't try because they don't care" or any other lame ass excuse there is

Observation: "Our team lost in overtime and scored a goal, the other opponent of Canada lost in regulation and did not score"

See the difference? Funky isn't it.

Not one Canadian remembers the finland game. Everyone remembers losing to the Czech's, and when that loss happened, the tournament was over for us. But congrats on winning one game and losing the other 3 and somehow being in the bronze medal game. im sure it was really rewarding. Im not making excuses for losing the bronze medal game, im saying you won fair and square. Winning bronze for Canada would of been still considered as a failure as nagano still is. With that team it was gold or bust. And silver to 10th are all the same

Fact is Finland has never won gold. Finand acts like they won Gold by winning Bronze, and that is the point.

LOL!

" Im not making excuses for losing the bronze medal game"

Excuse 1: "When we lost to the Czechs the tournament was over for us"
Excuse 2: "You should not have even been there!"
Excuse 3: "It would have been a failure to win bronze"
Excuse 4: "Silver to 10th are all the same"

No, you're not making excuses at all, you're OOZING them.


"Fact is Finland has never won gold. Finand acts like they won Gold by winning Bronze, and that is the point."

Finland has not won any gold medals in best on best tournaments. Nobody, I repeat, NOBODY acts like they have won gold.

The whole point the whole time has been....Canada and Sweden have recent wins, they are #1 and #2. The argument has been about who is 3rd etc. Finland is the only one who can claim that spot, USA and Russia pale in every possible way of comparing to Finland during this era. Try to understand what the topic of conversation is here, then you don't have to beat your Canadian chest in a thread where absolutely zero people have questioned the #1 spot. Clear enough for you, or do I have to dig out the crayons?

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

I pointed out earlier that:

A) If you went to the street and asked Canadians which countries they think are #2 and #3 after Canada, they would say USA and Russia.

You forgot Sweden. Sweden would probably get named ahead of Russia, as another team that has actually been tested/judged against Canada in a "recent" gold medal game after defeating the Finns in the semis, and the nation that beat both the Finns and Canadians at the most recent World Championship. Finland is the only team out of the "big 6" that hasn't defeated Canada since 2006 - in any game of any tournament - and you wonder why Canadians don't rank you higher?

The strength of the US team and the state of their developmental program means they are, and will be, Canada's biggest and toughest rival moving forward. Sweden is the next biggest challenger as the team with the "results" that you covet so much (on top of their strength and developmental system, which continues to provide more, and higher quality, NHLers). Finland is still in a dogfight for #4 according to those who are "judging" from on top, not that you'll be any more willing to accept that today than you were yesterday, or yesteryear.

 

[psycho_dad*]

Canada/Sweden/USA

Based on..?

 

[Sabane]

Finland is the only team out of the "big 6" that hasn't defeated Canada since 2006 - in any game of any tournament - and you wonder why Canadians don't rank you higher?

Perhaps I was dreaming when Finns won at the WJC couple of months ago :/

 

[Sergei Shirokov]

Based on..?

Canada: back to back Olympic champions, exc. I think its fair to say we are in the top 3. There are alot of reasons.

Sweden: Has medal-ed 3 out of 4 years at the World Championships, Silver in the Olympics with an injury depleted lineup, medal-ed last 3 years in the World Juniors.

USA: This one is really a toss up between USA & Russia IMO, I just went with USA cause they have done better in the Olympics as of late, , aswell they were the most recent country of the 2 to win a gold medal on any stage. And while this isn't a huge deal because of the KHL, they do have more players in the NHL.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Well we do, we have stated that you are fighting facts, real world results

Fact: Finland is the only hockey "super power" that hasn't been able to defeat any Canadian squad internationally since 2006 - including the Czechs and Slovaks.

That's part of why you've been seen as a #4/5 country "overall" the whole time despite basic statistical manipulations that yield #3 "results" over whatever time frame, and part of why a bronze for Finland has often been deemed an "over-achievement". Grade B strength, grade A consistency, but not a lot separating them from the grade B/B teams like the Czechs/Slovaks/Swiss.

That really doesn't have to hurt as much as it seems to, considering there are, at least, plenty of medals (whatever the colour) to look back on fondly.

 

[psycho_dad*]

Finland is the only team out of the "big 6" that hasn't defeated Canada since 2006 - in any game of any tournament - and you wonder why Canadians don't rank you higher?

Ummm...Finland has only played Canada once since 2006. In 2006 Finland won 2-0 and in 2014 Canada won 2-1 in OT.

And you are wrong as usual. Canada has not lost to Sweden since 2002. Canada also has not lost to Czechs or Slovaks since 2006.

So basically your argument is that because USA and Russia have beaten Canada since 2006, they have to be ranked higher than others?

Not that I wonder at all why majority of Canadians don't rank us higher, I have already pointed it out in my posts, even the one you just quoted. It's ignorance, misconception of results. They simply do not know that Finland has been way better t han USA and Russia. They are just as misguided as you are with your ignorance and made up stats and made up criteria.

The strength of the US team and the state of their developmental program means they are, and will be, Canada's biggest and toughest rival moving forward

They might be in the future, you never know. That part I can agree with you. But when you state "they are", you are once again completely ignoring results and real life facts. They are not, they have not been, nobody knows what happens in the future.

Finland is still in a dogfight for #4 according to those who are "judging" from on top, not that you'll be any more willing to accept that today than you were yesterday, or yesteryear.

Once results back it up that Finland is not top 3 I will more than gladly admit it to be so. As long as the results show that Finland is clearly in top 3, they remain in there.

It's still not about your opinion and fantasy, it's still about results.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Perhaps I was dreaming when Finns won at the WJC couple of months ago :/

I guess it's confusing to figure out exactly when you guys do/don't want us to focus on the developmental levels of countries as part of the process, because it typically doesn't help the Finnish case vs the other "super powers" (relegation round the year before, 6th before that, etc). But yeah, there's a junior win in there. Good find?

 

[Crede777]

Until the status of the NHL and KHL changes, I can't see the top-3 countries not being Canada, the United States, and Russia. The SEL can enter in if one of them is faltering.

We can have a long winded debate about who produces the superior hockey talent, but we cannot ignore where superior hockey talent actually GOES or tends to congregate.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

And you are wrong as usual. Canada has not lost to Sweden since 2002. Canada also has not lost to Czechs or Slovaks since 2006.

Speaking of wrong as usual, Sweden most recently defeated Canada in the quarter-final of last year's WC (2013). And guess what? The Slovaks beat them in the quarter-final of the WC before that (2012). And finally, the Czechs defeated Canada in round robin play in 2010.