Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[Midnight Judges]

Only players in history that have won multiple cups, harts, and conn smythes.

Gretzky
Lemieux
Orr
Crosby

That is why he's regarded so highly and a strong contender for #5 all time.

If you are hanging your hat on a 21 goal / 65 point pace playoff run as your primary defense of Crosby, you aren't doing it very well.

There are far better arguments for Sid.

 

[Golden_Jet]

I just demonstrated that I didn't make a straw man argument. So either your confusion is somehow persisting or you are intent to say dishonest things.

Where?
The straw man should be your avatar since you have it so much like your friend Bozo the clown.


I'm not a "he needs to win a SC guy and wasn't for the second leading scorer on the Capitals SC either but surprisingly in this past season's McDavid run your "secondary sid " argument is nowhere to be seen.

But then again you, and the other Big 3 McDavid guys in this debate are consistently inconsistent is evaluating all players equally and fairly.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Where?

Do you deny that there are people in this thread and in the hockey media and fandom making "until McDavid wins a cup..." type arguments? Seriously?

Anyway, here's one from like 2 pages ago:

hey if guys wanna just throw McDavid into the top 5. he needs a cup. if he wants to exceed one or more of Gretzky, Orr, Lemieux or Howe he is going to need a cup.... atleast one in his career.

Im sorry no one deserves to be among the best players of all time if they never lead their team atleast once to a cup.

So again, calling my assertion a straw man is blatantly false, and the integrity move for the poster who claimed it is to own up to it.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I'm not arguing his 3 points was more impactful. I'm saying it's dumb to just look at that stat-line and ignore that Zetterberg is a HoF talent who thrived in cancelling out the other team's 1C. I'm not absolving Crosby of blame here, just saying there was a reason he didn't put put a PPG or better SCF run. Some of that is because Zetterberg was a fantastic player

It’s not being ignored, it simply is what it is…

It’s not dumb to look at the stat line….its dumb to try to justify how a player of his caliber can play so poorly.

 

[x Tame Impala]

It’s not being ignored, it simply is what it is…

It’s not dumb to look at the stat line….its dumb to try to justify how a player of his caliber can play so poorly.

Why did McDavid have zero points in Game 6 & 7, the two biggest games of his life?Because this is the NHL and the league has the best players in the world. It's not because he played poorly. You have to give credit to the opposition at some point.

The Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr days of superhero hockey players are over. Star players, even generational players, aren't going to light every game on fire with their play. There's too much competition across the board and especially in a 7 game series in the SCF. You're being obtuse.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Why did McDavid have zero points in Game 6 & 7, the two biggest games of his life?Because this is the NHL and the league has the best players in the world. It's not because he played poorly. You have to give credit to the opposition at some point.

The Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr days of superhero hockey players are over. Star players, even generational players, aren't going to light every game on fire with their play. There's too much competition across the board and especially in a 7 game series in the SCF. You're being obtuse.

“giving credit” is fine, but the issue here is you almost make it sound excusable that Crosby didn’t produce, simply because it’s Zetterberg.

How about this, let me ask you something…let’s say the Pens lost that game 7…would you be along with a lot of other posters and blame Crosby for his lack of production, leadership, and not showing up when it mattered? Or, would you just chalk it up as…”well Detroit and a Zetterberg were really good so…”

 

[x Tame Impala]

“giving credit” is fine, but the issue here is you almost make it sound excusable that Crosby didn’t produce, simply because it’s Zetterberg.

How about this, let me ask you something…let’s say the Pens lost that game 7…would you be along with a lot of other posters and blame Crosby for his lack of production, leadership, and not showing up when it mattered? Or, would you just chalk it up as…”well Detroit and a Zetterberg were really good so…”

It's the same attitude I have with McDavid in G6 & G7, technically yeah both Crosby and McDavid didn't produce when their team's needed them the most and you can blame their lack of production etc...but I'm saying that's a relatively weak argument. It isn't contextualized.

Crosby has two Conne Smythes. McDavid put up 42 points in the playoffs. They earned the benefit of the doubt that they're otherwise excellent playoff performers. Zetterberg and the Wings did an amazing job shutting him down. Bobrovsky, Barkov, and the Panthers did an amazing job keeping McDavid off the score sheet the final 2 games.

It's not a removal of blame, it's just explaining what happened with context instead of merely looking at points.

 

[GreatGonzo]

It's the same attitude I have with McDavid in G6 & G7, technically yeah both Crosby and McDavid didn't produce when their team's needed them the most and you can blame their lack of production etc...but I'm saying that's a relatively weak argument. It isn't contextualized.

Crosby has two Conne Smythes. McDavid put up 42 points in the playoffs. They earned the benefit of the doubt that they're otherwise excellent playoff performers. Zetterberg and the Wings did an amazing job shutting him down. Bobrovsky, Barkov, and the Panthers did an amazing job keeping McDavid off the score sheet the final 2 games.

It's not a removal of blame, it's just explaining what happened with context instead of merely looking at points.

But the major differences are that McDavid faced the best defensive(two way) forward in the league, one of the best goalies(and before game 4 was putting on a clinic), and one of the best defensive teams in the league. He was still able to produce regardless. Did he show up in games 6 and 7? He didn’t produce but I definitely wouldn’t say he played poorly. But like I said, if he had more secondary scoring in game 7 like he did in games 6 and 4 like Crosby did, it would have made a world of difference and funny enough, would have made him a better leader and player to many..

You seem very reasonable on the topic, so I’m not directing this totally at you…but why is McDavids reputation as a player and leader being questioned after his performance, while Crosbys finals play is getting a lot of intangible arguments mixed with justifications on why he didn’t perform?(Zetterberg, injuries, “all around play.”)

 

[x Tame Impala]

But the major differences are that McDavid faced the best defensive(two way) forward in the league, one of the best goalies(and before game 4 was putting on a clinic), and one of the best defensive teams in the league. He was still able to produce regardless. Did he show up in games 6 and 7? He didn’t produce but I definitely wouldn’t say he played poorly. But like I said, he had more secondary scoring those two games like Crosby did, it would have made a world of difference and funny enough, would have made him a better leader and player to many..

You seem very reasonable on the topic, so I’m not directing this totally at you…but why is McDavids reputation as a player and leader being questioned after his performance, while Crosbys finals play is getting a lot of intangible arguments mixed with justifications on why he didn’t perform?(Zetterberg, injuries, “all around play.”)

I don't think it's reasonable to question McDavid's reputation either FWIW.

The Wings were in the Finals two years in a row, Zetterberg is a Smythe-winning HOF player. They had Datsyuk, Lidstrom, Rafalkski, Hossa, Kronwall, Holmstrom, Franzen, etc...as well. Osgood had a .930 SV% that playoff campaign too. Undeniably tough competition for ANY star player to produce. I don't think it's reasonable to say Crosby was playing poorly, in 08 he was going up against one of the best teams of the salary cap era.

It's not wrong to say that had he produced more the Pens would've won. Totally fair statement. I guess the difference between you and I is you see that Finals loss as closer to 100% on Crosby not producing where I see it as 50% Crosby didn't produce and 50% Zetterberg and the Wings shut him the hell down.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

still love that hockey is the only sport known to mankind that championships are just team awards lmao.

We’ve now reached the point of Crosby’s incredible leadership “willed” the Pens to win game 7 while he stapled to the bench.

It’s incredible they haven’t won the cup every season with an aura as strong as his.

I’m bowing out, this thread has reached lunacy status from certain posters

lunacy is just handing McDavid the keys to being the best player alive yet not earning that title yet.

 

[Golden_Jet]

lunacy is just handing McDavid the keys to being the best player alive yet not earning that title yet.

Poster never said he was best player alive, and neither has anyone else. You made that up.
He’s the best player in the NHL, not alive.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I don't think it's reasonable to question McDavid's reputation either FWIW.

The Wings were in the Finals two years in a row, Zetterberg is a Smythe-winning HOF player. They had Datsyuk, Lidstrom, Rafalkski, Hossa, Kronwall, Holmstrom, Franzen, etc...as well. Osgood had a .930 SV% that playoff campaign too. Undeniably tough competition for ANY star player to produce. I don't think it's reasonable to say Crosby was playing poorly, in 08 he was going up against one of the best teams of the salary cap era.

It's not wrong to say that had he produced more the Pens would've won. Totally fair statement. I guess the difference between you and I is you see that Finals loss as closer to 100% on Crosby not producing where I see it as 50% Crosby didn't produce and 50% Zetterberg and the Wings shut him the hell down.

Well here’s the issue….

Many in here(and other threads) aren’t giving 50% blame to McDavid. They are giving him ALL the blame. And it varies from
-didn’t produce when it mattered
-only stacked points in “meaningless” games
-didn’t play a better “all around game.”
-isn’t a good enough leader
-didn’t “elevate” his teammates

All these points have been covered. That’s why I ask if you think these same posters would give 100% of the blame to Crosby if they had lost. Do you think they would have? Or would they still find reasons and justifications as to why he couldn’t “get it done?”

I also don’t understand how it’s unreasonable to say he played poorly in the finals. You say it’s not all about stats…but again, what other “stats” or evidence do you have to suggest that he didn’t play poorly….because he won?

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Poster never said he was best player alive, and neither has anyone else. You made that up.
He’s the best player in the NHL, not alive.

best player alive comment was little over exaggerated but u get my point

 

[GreatGonzo]

still love that hockey is the only sport known to mankind that championships are just team awards lmao.


lunacy is just handing McDavid the keys to being the best player alive yet not earning that title yet.

It’s probably one, if not the most team oriented championship title in all of sports

Also, cool strawman…

 

[pi314]

I love how Sid has won everything you can win... often more multiple times...

...and his usual HF haters here still think it's an accident.

That's a whole lot of "coincidence" in one career.

I've seen him win games in so many different ways.

Some of those are obvious and show up on the stat sheet.

Game 7 against Ottawa 2OT: Sets up the game winning goal to end the series.

Game 6 against SJ: Sets up the Stanley Cup winning assist.

Game 2 against SJ: Sets up OT winner.

Vancouver Olympics: Scores the winning OT golden goal.

Sochi Olympics: Picks off a pass and makes it 2-0 late, putting away Sweden.

Game 5 against Nashville: Series wide open and Sid sets up 3 early assists to turn the series to Pittsburgh.

World Cup of Hockey: Wins MVP and was a beast all tournament long.

Those are the obvious ones. The ones that show up on the stat sheet.

But if you've seen his whole career like us Pens fans have...

...he has 100 of those that don't show up on the stat sheet.

Round 1 against NYI: 1 minute to go and Sid dives to break up a 2-1 at the last second. Shooter had an empty net and it would have tied the game. Ended 4-3. Usual HF trolls are out to say that "he didn't even have a point". They don't understand keeping a goal out is the same as scoring one.

Game 6 against SJ: Sharks are pressing late to get a tying goal. Sid blocks a shot, clears the zone. Ends any chance of a comeback. No points awarded.

2009 Finals: Red Wings blanket Sid with 3 or 4 HOFers every shift. Still generates chances but Osgood was sharp. Opens up the ice for Malkin to get second pairing guys and produce.

I've seen so many things.

Diving to save a puck off the goal line.
Late game clearing the zone.
Key facebook wins.
Poke checks to break up a key scoring chance.
Winning battles down low.
Clearing pucks to safety.
Clearing stuff out of the crease.
Breaking up a cross crease pass that would be a sure goal.
Skating back full speed on the backcheck to stop an odd man rush.
Etc etc.

He's a Swiss Army Knife.

He beats you 1000 ways... and 3 of those show up easily on a stat sheet.

McDavid is clearly a top 10 all-time great.

But I really mostly just see him make plays at mach speed and skate around guys.

I haven't seen the rest of the pieces Sid brings.

Plus, scoring is up league wide since they shrunk goalie equipment.

Not sure how much is Connor having an offensive advantage and how much is just the whole league going up in scoring.

McDavid would need a lot more of those other pieces of his game to close the gap.

Winning is the whole point of playing the game.

There's a reason Sid keeps winning.

Everywhere he goes.

It's not the coincidence the trolls would have you believe.

 

[Thenameless]

Are we talking now, or both at their best?

If we assume prime versus prime, I don't like any of the answers, and would prefer a "too close to call option."

Put a gun to my head and I'd say McDavid would be more like to win an Art Ross, and Crosby would be more likely to lead a team to a Stanley Cup. With both being capable of doing the other guy's "thing".

 

[Arthur Morgan]

It’s probably one, if not the most team oriented championship title in all of sports

Also, cool strawman…

yeah but winning still matters, if McDavid never wins a cup he will go down as the greatest player to never win.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Game 7 against Ottawa 2OT: Sets up the game winning goal to end the series.

Goal was a shot inside the point that went through about 5 or 6 players on way to net, deflected off 2 players,
Series could of went either way being double OT.

Crosby had the second worst plus minus on his team in that series.

 

[pi314]

Goal was a shot inside the point that went through about 5 or 6 players on way to net, deflected off 2 players,
Series could of went either way being double OT.

Crosby had the second worst plus minus on his team in that series.

Even by your standards, you're reaching.

And yes, a lot of series could have went either way. The NHL is competitive.

Seems like Sid being clutch helped it go the Pens way.

Funny how that works.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I love how Sid has won everything you can win... often more multiple times...

...and his usual HF haters here still think it's an accident.

That's a whole lot of "coincidence" in one career.

I've seen him win games in so many different ways.

Some of those are obvious and show up on the stat sheet.

Game 7 against Ottawa 2OT: Sets up the game winning goal to end the series.

Game 6 against SJ: Sets up the Stanley Cup winning assist.

Game 2 against SJ: Sets up OT winner.

Vancouver Olympics: Scores the winning OT golden goal.

Sochi Olympics: Picks off a pass and makes it 2-0 late, putting away Sweden.

Game 5 against Nashville: Series wide open and Sid sets up 3 early assists to turn the series to Pittsburgh.

World Cup of Hockey: Wins MVP and was a beast all tournament long.

Those are the obvious ones. The ones that show up on the stat sheet.

But if you've seen his whole career like us Pens fans have...

...he has 100 of those that don't show up on the stat sheet.

Round 1 against NYI: 1 minute to go and Sid dives to break up a 2-1 at the last second. Shooter had an empty net and it would have tied the game 4-3. Usual HF trolls are out to say that "he didn't even have a point". They don't understand keeping a goal out is the same as scoring one.

Game 6 against SJ: Sharks are pressing late to get a tying goal. Sid blocks a shot, clears the zone. Ends any chance of a comeback. No points awarded.

2009 Finals: Red Wings blanket Sid with 3 or 4 HOFers every shift. Still generates chances but Osgood was sharp. Opens up the ice for Malkin to get second pairing guys and produce.

I've seen so many things.

Diving to save a puck off the goal line.
Late game clearing the zone.
Key facebook wins.
Poke checks to break up a key scoring chance.
Winning battles down low.
Clearing pucks to safety.
Clearing stuff out of the crease.
Breaking up a cross crease pass that would be a sure goal.
Skating back full speed on the backcheck to stop an odd man rush.
Etc etc.

He's a Swiss Army Knife.

He beats you 1000 ways... and 3 of those show up easily on a stat sheet.

McDavid is clearly a top 10 all-time great.

But I really mostly just see him make plays at mach speed and skate around guys.

I haven't seen the rest of the pieces Sid brings.

Plus, scoring is up league wide since they shrunk goalie equipment.

Not sure how much is Connor having an offensive advantage and how much is just the whole league going up in scoring.

McDavid would need a lot more of those other pieces of his game to close the gap.

Winning is the whole point of playing the game.

There's a reason Sid keeps winning.

Everywhere he goes.

It's the coincidence the trolls would have you believe.

Crazy how when McDavid scores a bunch of points in a blow out win, it’s “meaningless” and he’s a “compiler.” But when Crosby does it….its a moment to remember.

Love mor excuses as to why Crosby couldn’t “get it done.”

yeah but winning still matters, if McDavid never wins a cup he will go down as the greatest player to never win.

Winning does matter obviously considering that the only reason people are attempting to argue Crosbys finals in ‘09 vs McDavid in ‘24 is simply because he won…

 

[GreatGonzo]

Even by your standards, you're reaching.

And yes, a lot of series could have went either way. The NHL is competitive.

Seems like Sid being clutch helped it go the Pens way.

Funny how that works.

What about the times where he wasn’t “clutch.” Or didn’t perform well and they still won?…

 

[Golden_Jet]

Even by your standards, you're reaching.

And yes, a lot of series could have went either way. The NHL is competitive.

Seems like Sid being clutch helped it go the Pens way.

Funny how that works.

Lmao, pot meet kettle, at least some of us have standards.

Looks like what I said is factual,
shot from inside the point, going through a bunch of people and getting deflected- fact
Series could of went either way- fact
Sid, second worst plus minus on his team for the series - fact

 

[Video Nasty]

I love how Sid has won everything you can win... often more multiple times...

...and his usual HF haters here still think it's an accident.

That's a whole lot of "coincidence" in one career.

I've seen him win games in so many different ways.

Some of those are obvious and show up on the stat sheet.

Game 7 against Ottawa 2OT: Sets up the game winning goal to end the series.

Game 6 against SJ: Sets up the Stanley Cup winning assist.

Game 2 against SJ: Sets up OT winner.

Vancouver Olympics: Scores the winning OT golden goal.

Sochi Olympics: Picks off a pass and makes it 2-0 late, putting away Sweden.

Game 5 against Nashville: Series wide open and Sid sets up 3 early assists to turn the series to Pittsburgh.

World Cup of Hockey: Wins MVP and was a beast all tournament long.

Those are the obvious ones. The ones that show up on the stat sheet.

But if you've seen his whole career like us Pens fans have...

...he has 100 of those that don't show up on the stat sheet.

Round 1 against NYI: 1 minute to go and Sid dives to break up a 2-1 at the last second. Shooter had an empty net and it would have tied the game. Ended 4-3. Usual HF trolls are out to say that "he didn't even have a point". They don't understand keeping a goal out is the same as scoring one.

Game 6 against SJ: Sharks are pressing late to get a tying goal. Sid blocks a shot, clears the zone. Ends any chance of a comeback. No points awarded.

2009 Finals: Red Wings blanket Sid with 3 or 4 HOFers every shift. Still generates chances but Osgood was sharp. Opens up the ice for Malkin to get second pairing guys and produce.

I've seen so many things.

Diving to save a puck off the goal line.
Late game clearing the zone.
Key facebook wins.
Poke checks to break up a key scoring chance.
Winning battles down low.
Clearing pucks to safety.
Clearing stuff out of the crease.
Breaking up a cross crease pass that would be a sure goal.
Skating back full speed on the backcheck to stop an odd man rush.
Etc etc.

He's a Swiss Army Knife.

He beats you 1000 ways... and 3 of those show up easily on a stat sheet.

McDavid is clearly a top 10 all-time great.

But I really mostly just see him make plays at mach speed and skate around guys.

I haven't seen the rest of the pieces Sid brings.

Plus, scoring is up league wide since they shrunk goalie equipment.

Not sure how much is Connor having an offensive advantage and how much is just the whole league going up in scoring.

McDavid would need a lot more of those other pieces of his game to close the gap.

Winning is the whole point of playing the game.

There's a reason Sid keeps winning.

Everywhere he goes.

It's not the coincidence the trolls would have you believe.

I have my doubts that you’ve watched McDavid as intently as you have Crosby.

Put a gun to my head and I'd say McDavid would be more like to win an Art Ross, and Crosby would be more likely to lead a team to a Stanley Cup. With both being capable of doing the other guy's "thing".

Your temple would be leaking. The shooter requires a McDavid answer for both.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Crazy how when McDavid scores a bunch of points in a blow out win, it’s “meaningless” and he’s a “compiler.” But when Crosby does it….its a moment to remember.

Love mor excuses as to why Crosby couldn’t “get it done.”


Winning does matter obviously considering that the only reason people are attempting to argue Crosbys finals in ‘09 vs McDavid in ‘24 is simply because he won…

im not going to argue any season over another. but I mean Crosby has gotten the job done 3 times and scored the game winning goal getting Gold for Team Canada.

I think both players are beyond incredible. but I value Crosby's all round game and leadership a little more. he might not be as good as McDavid offensively but he's not far off.

with all of that, I just think its tough to agree McDavid over Crosby. need to see little more, and even if McDavid won the cup. I would still go with Crosby....... for now. but it would be a big help.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

I love how Sid has won everything you can win... often more multiple times...

...and his usual HF haters here still think it's an accident.

That's a whole lot of "coincidence" in one career.

I've seen him win games in so many different ways.

Some of those are obvious and show up on the stat sheet.

Game 7 against Ottawa 2OT: Sets up the game winning goal to end the series.

Game 6 against SJ: Sets up the Stanley Cup winning assist.

Game 2 against SJ: Sets up OT winner.

Vancouver Olympics: Scores the winning OT golden goal.

Sochi Olympics: Picks off a pass and makes it 2-0 late, putting away Sweden.

Game 5 against Nashville: Series wide open and Sid sets up 3 early assists to turn the series to Pittsburgh.

World Cup of Hockey: Wins MVP and was a beast all tournament long.

Those are the obvious ones. The ones that show up on the stat sheet.

But if you've seen his whole career like us Pens fans have...

...he has 100 of those that don't show up on the stat sheet.

Round 1 against NYI: 1 minute to go and Sid dives to break up a 2-1 at the last second. Shooter had an empty net and it would have tied the game. Ended 4-3. Usual HF trolls are out to say that "he didn't even have a point". They don't understand keeping a goal out is the same as scoring one.

Game 6 against SJ: Sharks are pressing late to get a tying goal. Sid blocks a shot, clears the zone. Ends any chance of a comeback. No points awarded.

2009 Finals: Red Wings blanket Sid with 3 or 4 HOFers every shift. Still generates chances but Osgood was sharp. Opens up the ice for Malkin to get second pairing guys and produce.

I've seen so many things.

Diving to save a puck off the goal line.
Late game clearing the zone.
Key facebook wins.
Poke checks to break up a key scoring chance.
Winning battles down low.
Clearing pucks to safety.
Clearing stuff out of the crease.
Breaking up a cross crease pass that would be a sure goal.
Skating back full speed on the backcheck to stop an odd man rush.
Etc etc.

He's a Swiss Army Knife.

He beats you 1000 ways... and 3 of those show up easily on a stat sheet.

McDavid is clearly a top 10 all-time great.

But I really mostly just see him make plays at mach speed and skate around guys.

I haven't seen the rest of the pieces Sid brings.

Plus, scoring is up league wide since they shrunk goalie equipment.

Not sure how much is Connor having an offensive advantage and how much is just the whole league going up in scoring.

McDavid would need a lot more of those other pieces of his game to close the gap.

Winning is the whole point of playing the game.

There's a reason Sid keeps winning.

Everywhere he goes.

It's not the coincidence the trolls would have you believe.

Nobody is hating that's what you're not understanding , its not hate to have 97 over sid !!!