Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[nbwingsfan]

Crosby is just better all around, has always been much better defensively too, clutch when it matters too,

McDavid is freaking 9 seasons into his career..... why not let him EARN his place above Crosby or other greats.?

Cups matter too. if he never wins one, it wont be all the trophies he won that people will remember, it will be not winning a cup

Crosby‘a stats “when it matters” in the NHL haven’t actually been very impressive

 

[Fourier]

yeah and over the next 10 years there's a VERY strong change my opinions change. I wasn't always a Crosby fan.

I used to call him Crysby just like everyone else. and Id be just as against placing him in the top 5 or where ever we;re arguing. McDavid will prob get there when its all said and done.

I also already admitted McDavid is the better player. but I still wouldn't place him above Crosby. I value Crosby's all round play, leadership and being a proven winner higher.

If Skinner stops the second goal and Bouchard scores on the shot he barely missed on, does that make McDavid a better player???

 

[PainForShane]

If Skinner stops the second goal and Bouchard scores on the shot he barely missed on, does that make McDavid a better player???

He already said he thought McDavid is the better player, you quoted this in your post (he likely meant individual contributor if you're one of those ppl that likes to claim victory after twisting people's meanings, thought I'd proactively throw that out there just in case).

Not sure what you're going after him for. What a way to introduce yourself.

 

[Fourier]

He already said he thought McDavid is the better player, you quoted this in your post. Not sure what you're going after him for

Ok I'll rephrase the question. Does that make McDavid a more proven winner and a better leader even if he had no additional impact on either play?

I am not so sure to whom I am suppose to be introducing myself..

 

[PainForShane]

Ok I'll rephrase the question. Does that make McDavid a more proven winner and a better leader even if he had no additional impact on either play?

If those plays would've led to McDavid winning a cup, then yes, it would've made McDavid a more proven winner. Because then it'd be proven that he'd actually have won the cup. This is different than the current situation where McDavid has not yet won the cup.

Better leader probably not, though that is up for debate

 

[GreatGonzo]

not that much of a downgrade offensively but better in all other aspects of the game including being a true leader. guys a winner

now that doesnt mean McDavid will never pass him, he very well can but I think it's a little premature to place a cupless McDavid over Crosby only 9 seasons into his career.

exactly my point

They’re the same thing. It’s not that hard.


There’s nothing to justify. One led his team to multiple championships & came up big in big moments. The other collects regular season participation trophies.

It’s not hard, just lazy. That’s all.

 

[Fourier]

If those plays would've led to McDavid winning a cup, then yes, it would've made McDavid a more proven winner. Because he would've won the cup. This is different than the current situation where McDavid has not yet won the cup.

Better leader probably not, though that is up for debate

Your answer shows precisely why these qualities are so nebulous in comparing players such as McDavid and Crosby. If the actions of his teammates, irrespective of any thing he does, impact these qualities then how are they valid characteristics in comparing players at this level.

Would anyone say that Patrick Maroon's a more proven winner than McDavid? And if so why would that matter in any reasonable comparison of the players.

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

Never recalled Crosby gassing himself out in the first 10 mintues of a cup clinching game like Twinkletoes McFingerbang the Stat Monkey did.

 

[PainForShane]

Your answer shows precisely why these qualities are so nebulous in comparing players such as McDavid and Crosby. If the actions of his teammates, irrespective of any thing he does, impact these qualities then how are they valid characteristics in comparing players at this level.

Would anyone say that Patrick Maroon's a more proven winner than McDavid?

If you're talking about who's proven they've won more Stanley Cups, then yes. Maroon has won more cups, this statement is easy to prove.

If you're talking about better player, then no. Maroon is not a better player than McDavid.

***

It sounds like you're setting up an argument to say something like, "McDavid's more of a proven winner because he's a better player, even though he hasn't won the cup yet." I disagree with this idea. Wait until he wins a before calling him a winner. He hasn't won yet.

If you want to call McD a better player, sure. But calling him a 'proven winner' is clearly not accurate, he hasn't won the cup yet. Also, to me it seems strange to go after someone who has this common sense take.

 

[GreatGonzo]

If you're talking about who's proven they've won more Stanley Cups, then yes. Maroon has won more cups, this statement is easy to prove.

If you're talking about better player, then no. Maroon is not a better player than McDavid.

***

It sounds like you're setting up an argument to say something like, "McDavid's more of a proven winner because he's a better player, even though he hasn't won the cup yet." I disagree with this idea. Wait until he wins a before calling him a winner. He hasn't won yet.

If you want to call McD a better player, sure. But calling him a 'proven winner' is clearly not accurate, he hasn't won the cup yet. Also, to me it seems strange to go after someone who has this common sense take.

So, only having a cup makes one a “winner?”

Not Harts, scoring titles, Lindsays, point totals. The end all-be all of calling him a “winner” rests only on whether or not he has a cup?

So one can be a proven winner, but can also be less of a player. But being a proven winner>a better player?….

 

[nbwingsfan]

If Skinner stops the second goal and Bouchard scores on the shot he barely missed on, does that make McDavid a better player???

I’ve asked this same type of question without a single logical answer back.

If Derek Ryan scored 2G in game 7 (like Talbot did in 09), does this somehow make McDavid a better player?

 

[Video Nasty]

Never recalled Crosby gassing himself out in the first 10 mintues of a cup clinching game like Twinkletoes McFingerbang the Stat Monkey did.

Whatever this means exactly, McDavid didn’t have the luxury of sitting on the bench in a Game 7 for most of the game, like Crosby did after a knee injury, which saw him exit the clinching game of his first Cup win early in the second period.

Fortunately, for Crosby, his teammates put in the work, finished the job, and he didn’t remain Cupless (and Conn Smythe-less) until 2016.

Also fortunately for Crosby, the mass hypnosis has made the collective hockey world forget this, as well as not bothering to shake the hands of his opponents until well after most of them exited to their dressing room.

 

[GreatGonzo]

They’re the same thing. It’s not that hard.


There’s nothing to justify. One led his team to multiple championships & came up big in big moments. The other collects regular season participation trophies.

What were Crosbys “big moments” in the finals?

I wasn’t aware the Hart and Lindsay were “participation awards” but the cup isn’t… you quite literally get your name and day with The cup if played ONE game and didn’t have any points at all….but THATS not a “participation award”…

 

[GreatGonzo]

I’ve asked this same type of question without a single logical answer back.

If Derek Ryan scored 2G in game 7 (like Talbot did in 09), does this somehow make McDavid a better player?

Isn’t it fascinating that it’s required for another player to step up and score to prove that ANOTHER players “leadership” and being able to “win” are legit?

Crosby is the TRUE leader, just ask Talbot. Crosbys leadership and “winning ways” directly resulted in his two goals in game 7.

 

[Fourier]

If you're talking about who's proven they've won more Stanley Cups, then yes. Maroon has won more cups, this statement is easy to prove.

If you're talking about better player, then no. Maroon is not a better player than McDavid.

***

It sounds like you're setting up an argument to say something like, "McDavid's more of a proven winner because he's a better player, even though he hasn't won the cup yet." I disagree with this idea. Wait until he wins a before calling him a winner. He hasn't won yet.

If you want to call McD a better player, sure. But calling him a 'proven winner' is clearly not accurate, he hasn't won the cup yet. Also, to me it seems strange to go after someone who has this common sense take.

I am not saying that McDavid is more of a proven winner or better leader. What I am saying is that in comparing these two I don't think either quality is really all that relevant.

With respect to leadership in particular, I suspect that we have no way to really accurately compare the two because leadership is almost impossible to quantify. There are also so many ways players can "lead" that are not apparent to a fan.

These days I suspect that if you asked who was the better leader, Messier or Gretzky many on here would choose Messier even if you restricted that debate to the 80's. But I'd argue that Gretzky was most definitely the clear leader of the Oilers through the 80's based on having watched the team as a STH. Messier was an undisciplined kid who really learned what it took to win from watching the best player ever to play the game also work harder than anyone else. For me both Crosby and McDavid have many of Gretzky's qualities as a leader. Both seldom take a night off. As good as they are both continually strive to do better. Both players are as hard working as any on their team. How one compares one vs the other and comes out with a winner based on what we know is a mystery to me.

With respect to "proven winner", again i don't see this as relevant to the question of what tier these two players are on. There is absolutely no way to know how many wins each team might have had if the players could have miraculously switched positions. All we know is that Crosby has won as many cups as Maroon so by that crude measure are they equal in the "proven winner" category. The NHL is as much or more of a team game as any pro sport. Winning a cup is most definitely not an individual act.

I chose to put McDavid in a tier above Crosby. Others may disagree, I understand that. But I did it because what I have seen with my own eyes are things from McDavid that I have only ever seen from Gretzky and Lemieux. Had the Oilers won Game 7 it would have had no impact on my assessment of him as a player.

 

[BlueBaron]

Messier was never the best player of his era - he's not even a top ten player. Crosby was and is. This is comparing two players that are the best of their respective eras.

Sure that is one very specific way of looking at it. I was comparing them as players in general.

Which ones Messier….

Maybe look at their stats and figure it out.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Sure that is one very specific way of looking at it. I was comparing them as players in general.


Maybe look at their stats and figure it out.

That still doesn’t answer anything. As players, they aren’t comparable at all.

“look at the stats and figure it out.” Or….you can just say who you were referring to instead of playing these stupid games.

 

[wetcoast]

Crosby is #6 all-time and second on my list for best players since the turn of the century. I’ve given him his due, but don’t mind pointing out what’s real and what’s fantasy.

Who is the 21st Century player ahead of him on your rankings?

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

Whatever this means exactly, McDavid didn’t have the luxury of sitting on the bench in a Game 7 for most of the game, like Crosby did after a knee injury, which saw him exit the clinching game of his first Cup win early in the second period.

Fortunately, for Crosby, his teammates put in the work, finished the job, and he didn’t remain Cupless (and Conn Smythe-less) until 2016.

Also fortunately for Crosby, the mass hypnosis has made the collective hockey world forget this, as well as not bothering to shake the hands of his opponents until well after most of them exited to their dressing room.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Crosby‘a stats “when it matters” in the NHL haven’t actually been very impressive

Meanwhile, Crosby has more “great moments”, than almost any other player in NHL history.

- Golden Goal in 2010

- Insurance goal on a breakaway vs Lundqvist to seal the gold medal in 2014 Olympics

- Comeback goal vs Islanders in 2011 when some people thought he would never be able to play again due to head/neck injuries.

- Assist on the game-winning goal vs San Jose in 2016 after he told Letang they were going to connect for the biggest goal of the series (well documented)

- Youngest captain to win the cup (at the time)

- Historic game 7 performance vs the Capitals in 2009. That series showcased the 2 best players of his generation going at it all series long, as they went into a must win game 7 for their legacy. Crosby then scored his iconic “put the game away” goal by stripping Ovechkin the puck.

- Calling the play at the faceoff on the OT goal in game 2 in the 2016 SCF vs San Jose, which put Pittsburgh ahead 2-0 in the series.

Details:

How Sidney Crosby ‘called shot’ on Penguins' Game 2 OT goal

“I call 25 faceoffs a game. So I got 24 wrong tonight,” said Crosby.

ca.sports.yahoo.com

- Scoring the OT goal in the conference finals (game 2) vs Tampa Bay in 2016, when Pittsburgh was trailing 1-0. That was a decisive moment that might’ve forever changed his career trajectory. If Pittsburgh goes down 2-0, they probably lose the series and Pittsburgh might not win the cup in 2017 either.

- Assisting on the game 7 double overtime series clinching goal vs Ottawa in the conference finals, in 2017, with great edge work to gain separation.

His portfolio is second to none. Truly a once in a lifetime player. It’s a shame some people can’t appreciate his greatness and the way he put his mark on the history of the game.

 

[Video Nasty]

Who is the 21st Century player ahead of him on your rankings?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Meanwhile, Crosby has more “great moments”, than almost any other player in NHL history.

- Golden Goal in 2010

- Insurance goal in a breakaway vs Lundqvist to seal to gold medal in 2014 Olympics

- Comeback goal vs Islanders in 2011 when some people thought he would never be able to play again due to head/neck injuries.

- Assist on the game-winning goal vs San Jose in 2016 after he told Letang they were going to connect for the biggest goal of the series (well documented)

- Youngest captain to win the cup (at the time)

- Calling the play at the faceoff on the OT goal in game 2 in the 2016 SCF vs San Jose, which put Pittsburgh ahead 2-0 in the series.

Details:

How Sidney Crosby ‘called shot’ on Penguins' Game 2 OT goal

“I call 25 faceoffs a game. So I got 24 wrong tonight,” said Crosby.

ca.sports.yahoo.com

- Scoring the OT goal in the conference finals (game 2) vs Tampa Bay in 2016, when Pittsburgh was trailing 1-0. That was a decisive moment that might’ve forever changed his career trajectory. If Pittsburgh goes down 2-0, they probably lose the series and Pittsburgh might not win the cup in 2017 either.

- Assisting on the game 7 double overtime series clinching goal vs Ottawa in the conference finals, in 2017, with great edge work to gain separation.

His portfolio is second to none. Truly a once in a lifetime player. It’s a shame some people can’t appreciate his greatness and the way he put his mark on the history of the game.

I’ve never seen a player get so much credit for scoring an “insurance” goal in a 3-0 win.

Wasn’t that a rookie goalie playing in his first NHL game?…

So these are the “great moments” of Sidney Crosby?

 

[PainForShane]

I am not saying that McDavid is more of a proven winner or better leader. What I am saying is that in comparing these two I don't think either quality is really all that relevant.

With respect to leadership in particular, I suspect that we have no way to really accurately compare the two because leadership is almost impossible to quantify. There are also so many ways players can "lead" that are not apparent to a fan.

These days I suspect that if you asked who was the better leader, Messier or Gretzky many on here would choose Messier even if you restricted that debate to the 80's. But I'd argue that Gretzky was most definitely the clear leader of the Oilers through the 80's based on having watched the team as a STH. Messier was an undisciplined kid who really learned what it took to win from watching the best player ever to play the game also work harder than anyone else. For me both Crosby and McDavid have many of Gretzky's qualities as a leader. Both seldom take a night off. As good as they are both continually strive to do better. Both players are as hard working as any on their team. How one compares one vs the other and comes out with a winner based on what we know is a mystery to me.

With respect to "proven winner", again i don't see this as relevant to the question of what tier these two players are on. There is absolutely no way to know how many wins each team might have had if the players could have miraculously switched positions. All we know is that Crosby has won as many cups as Maroon so by that crude measure are they equal in the "proven winner" category. The NHL is as much or more of a team game as any pro sport. Winning a cup is most definitely not an individual act.

I chose to put McDavid in a tier above Crosby. Others may disagree, I understand that. But I did it because what I have seen with my own eyes are things from McDavid that I have only ever seen from Gretzky and Lemieux.

Sounds good and thanks for a well written summary of why you believe what you believe. I disagree with some of this in that I do think leading your team to championships is not insignificant, like you said we don't know what goes on the dressing room but in my view winning a championship does matter, that's the main motivation for most of these guys. And one guy got his team across the line multiple times while the other hasn't yet, that much is undeniable.

Put a different way, to me the above argument is a bit like minimizing Tom Brady's leadership ability just because we don't actually know what goes inside the locker room -- I mean, sure we don't know what went on in the room but we do know that Crosby / Brady were able to win multiple championships, part of that is probably due to some aspect of leadership. And if Brady is on a different tier because of his championships (many would argue this), I feel that that also applies to Sid.

Also there is a stark difference between Crosby's role in his championship teams (ie core member and Captain of the team) compared to someone like Maroon or Phil Kessel in his later cup years. So I don't think the Maroon comparison makes any sense tbh.

***

But yeah, reasonable take even though I disagree with some of your argument for the reasons mentioned above. Thx for sharing and thx also for being reasonable about things, much appreciated over here

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

I’ve never seen a player get so much credit for scoring an “insurance” goal in a 3-0 win.

Wasn’t that a rookie goalie playing in his first NHL game?…

So these are the “great moments” of Sidney Crosby?

Singlehandledly skull f***ing Flyers the past 18 years.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Sounds good and thanks for a well written summary of why you believe what you believe. I disagree with some of this in that I do think leading your team to championships is not insignificant, like you said we don't know what goes on the dressing room but in my view winning a championship does matter, that's the main motivation for most of these guys. And one guy got his team across the line multiple times while the other hasn't yet, that much is undeniable.

Put a different way, to me the above argument is a bit like minimizing Tom Brady's leadership ability just because we don't actually know what goes inside the locker room -- I mean, sure we don't know what went on in the room but we do know that Crosby / Brady were able to win multiple championships, part of that is probably due to some aspect of leadership. And if Brady is on a different tier because of his championships (many would argue this), I feel that that also applies to Sid.

Also there is a stark difference between Crosby's role in his championship teams (ie core member and Captain of the team) compared to someone like Maroon or Phil Kessel in his later cup years. So I don't think the Maroon comparison makes any sense tbh.

***

But yeah, reasonable take even though I disagree with some of your argument for the reasons mentioned above. Thx for sharing and being reasonable about things, much appreciated over here

Or more so talent…

Kessel lead the team in points in goals in 2016. That is probably the biggest difference between Crosby and him that year. Last time I checked, a player’s production isn’t determined by a letter on a jersey