Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[Frank Drebin]

To sum it up…For Crosby, TEAM awards define him more individually as a superior player. For McDavid, individual awards mean isn’t better overall, he’s just good at scoring points.

Not a born winner, basically

 

[Video Nasty]

Crosby's approach has always been "I will lift up the team", while McDavid seems to act like his less talented teammates should just not get in his way.

Based on what?

 

[GreatGonzo]

Crosby's approach has always been "I will lift up the team", while McDavid seems to act like his less talented teammates should just not get in his way.

And people seem to retroactively give credit to the Penguins organization because of the success they've had with Crosby and Malkin. When Crosby was drafted the organization was a disaster and well behind modern times.

You really wrote that and thought….ya that’s a logical and well thought out statement…

Crosby was really “lifting” his teammates in the finals in ‘09 with his 3 points in 7 games. While McDavids 11 points in 7 games is him “acting” like he’s better than his team.

Because the Oilers were so well off without McDavid, right?…

Based on what?

“My love for Crosby…and because i say so and you can’t disprove it.”

 

[bambamcam4ever]

The exact same things can be said for Pens fans coming up with the most outlandish statements regarding McDavid to try and and prove (maybe to themselves?) that Crosby was better


The supporting casts of Crosby and Bedard were not even remotely comparable.

They were very comparable, most of the 05 Penguins were out of the league within two years. The Penguins only had 6 more points than Chicago, mostly because Crosby was already a top 5 forward in the league, while Bedard was far from that.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

When Crosby first signed his $8.7M deal the AAV was at 17.3% of cap at the time. The cap of the following season wasn't yet known, but it ended up being 15.34%.

When McDavid signed his $12.5M deal the AAV was at 16.7% of the cap at the time. The cap of the following season wasn't yet known but it ended up being 15.7%

Both signed in July prior to the final year of their ELCs.

Highest would make it 15.34% when kicked in, but higher than 16.7 when signed.

Not sure why you guys are bringing their 2nd contract into the discussion, as I never made allusion to them. Their cap % was extremely close, as to why it is a non-factor to this discussion.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Based on what?

Just my opinion based on his demeanor and the way his teams have played, which benefits 97's game at the expense of the less gifted members of the Oilers.

I think he forces his teams to play a certain way and I can't see him buying into playing a trapping system like Crosby did under Therrien.

 

[norrisnick]

Not sure why you guys are bringing their 2nd contract into the discussion, as I never made allusion to them. Their cap % was extremely close, as to why it is a non-factor to this discussion.

Because McDavid has only signed an ELC and 2nd contract. So comparing that 2nd contract is the only thing we can compare right now...

Also this:

"Crosby’s cap hit has been 8,7M for the last 16 years."

So I'm referencing the first of those 16 years. A number of years that you brought up in the post I quoted.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Just my opinion based on his demeanor and the way his teams have played, which benefits 97's game at the expense of the less gifted members of the Oilers.

I think he forces his teams to play a certain way and I can't see him buying into playing a trapping system like Crosby did under Therrien.

How convenient…

Maybe you have no idea what you are talking about and are just trying way too hard?…just a thought.

“Trapping system.” When did Crosby play a trapping system? In fact, when did Crosby sacrifice ANYTHING for a system or for a more “defensive role.”

Again, more nonsense on your part.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Not sure why you guys are bringing their 2nd contract into the discussion, as I never made allusion to them. Their cap % was extremely close, as to why it is a non-factor to this discussion.

Crosbys second deal had a favourable cap hit only because it had the three cheater years tacked on the back end which was customary at the time to help teams manage the cap

Crosby was not altruistic or prioritized winning by signing that contract, as in his prime earning years (age 26-34) he made 25% more in real dollars than his cap hit

Going back to your original point about mcdavid needing to learn from Crosby about winning when it comes to signing his next deal

Are you following?

 

[blundluntman]

Just my opinion based on his demeanor and the way his teams have played, which benefits 97's game at the expense of the less gifted members of the Oilers.

I think he forces his teams to play a certain way and I can't see him buying into playing a trapping system like Crosby did under Therrien.

Sounds like confirmation bias more than anything tbh. The Oilers have actually played a better defensive structure this season and had one of the best goal differentials/penalty kills in the league (McDavid still produced very similarly to his usual self after the coaching change). That doesn't sound like catering to McDavid's play at the expense of other players; even if it is, it must be working.

And considering the Pens won a cup the same season they finally fired Therrien, maybe buying into such a system wasn't the best way to win to begin with.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Because McDavid has only signed an ELC and 2nd contract. So comparing that 2nd contract is the only thing we can compare right now...

Also this:

"Crosby’s cap hit has been 8,7M for the last 16 years."

So I'm referencing the first of those 16 years. A number of years that you brought up in the post I quoted.

Yes, that was a fact. Nothing more. Never once talked about his, or McDavid’s 2nd contract. You guys are jumping off the gun way too early.

Crosbys second deal had a favourable cap hit only because it had the three cheater years tacked on the back end which was customary at the time to help teams manage the cap

Crosby was not altruistic or prioritized winning by signing that contract, as in his prime earning years (age 26-34) he made 25% more in real dollars than his cap hit

Going back to your original point about mcdavid needing to learn from Crosby about winning when it comes to signing his next deal

Are you following?

*3rd contract

Fact remains, his cap hit was 8,7M for the 12 subsequent years, which has been a number he has been very superstitious about throughout his career. Is his cap hit higher if he’s not available to sign a 12 year contract? Maybe, but we’ll never know.

In comparison, Ovechkin in 2008 signed a 13 year contract with an AAV of 9,54M, good for 16,82% of the cap, so the length of the contract didn’t stop him from getting a higher cap hit. Crosby’s 12 year contract in 2012 accounted for 13,53% during the first year and has been steadily on the decline ever since, obviously.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Sounds like confirmation bias more than anything tbh. The Oilers have actually played a better defensive structure this season and had one of the best goal differentials/penalty kills in the league (McDavid still produced very similarly to his usual self after the coaching change). That doesn't sound like catering to McDavid's play at the expense of other players; even if it is, it must be working.

And considering the Pens won a cup the same season they finally fired Therrien, maybe buying into such a system wasn't the best way to win to begin with.

1) The penalty kill has nothing to do with the 5v5 system. It's not like any team chooses to have a bad PK, there's no robbing Peter to pay Paul for special teams really. They were really good at 5v5, albeit not the best, but that makes sense, they have a really good roster.

2) They did play better defense to some degree, although a lot of their improved D is just due to having Ekholm. But regardless the way the Oilers create offense, especially in transition, does not work for less talented players as they are unable to execute what they are required to do.

3) Therrien had a bigger impact on the Penguins winning the cup in 09 than Bylsma (also evidenced by Bylsma's performance as coach over the next 5 seasons). Some of the players quit on Therrien, but the biggest reason they beat Detroit was because of the defensive structure Therrien instilled in them. And this is all besides the point, the question was whether McDavid would buy into such a system. You seem to imply that McDavid wouldn't because he know better. I bet McDavid agrees with you.

 

[ijuka]

Crosby's approach has always been "I will lift up the team", while McDavid seems to act like his less talented teammates should just not get in his way.

Except hasn't McDavid elevated his linemates a great deal historically?

 

[Golden_Jet]

Not sure why you guys are bringing their 2nd contract into the discussion, as I never made allusion to them. Their cap % was extremely close, as to why it is a non-factor to this discussion.

Yes you did 16-17 years at same number, you included it, yourself.

 

[GreatGonzo]

1) The penalty kill has nothing to do with the 5v5 system. It's not like any team chooses to have a bad PK, there's no robbing Peter to pay Paul for special teams really. They were really good at 5v5, albeit not the best, but that makes sense, they have a really good roster.

2) They did play better defense to some degree, although a lot of their improved D is just due to having Ekholm. But regardless the way the Oilers create offense, especially in transition, does not work for less talented players as they are unable to execute what they are required to do.

3) Therrien had a bigger impact on the Penguins winning the cup in 09 than Bylsma (also evidenced by Bylsma's performance as coach over the next 5 seasons). Some of the players quit on Therrien, but the biggest reason they beat Detroit was because of the defensive structure Therrien instilled in them. And this is all besides the point, the question was whether McDavid would buy into such a system. You seem to imply that McDavid wouldn't because he know better. I bet McDavid agrees with you.

Crosby didn’t “buy into” any System. Stop trying to make that a thing. You are purely doing it just to make McDavids style of play look less impressive and impactful. It’s silly as hell.

Crosby the ultimate leader….sacrificing personal
Numbers and play for the greater good of the team….all so they can be winners. What a bunch of garbage

 

[blundluntman]

1) The penalty kill has nothing to do with the 5v5 system. It's not like any team chooses to have a bad PK, there's no robbing Peter to pay Paul for special teams really. They were really good at 5v5, albeit not the best, but that makes sense, they have a really good roster.

2) They did play better defense to some degree, although a lot of their improved D is just due to having Ekholm. But regardless the way the Oilers create offense, especially in transition, does not work for less talented players as they are unable to execute what they are required to do.

3) Therrien had a bigger impact on the Penguins winning the cup in 09 than Bylsma (also evidenced by Bylsma's performance as coach over the next 5 seasons). Some of the players quit on Therrien, but the biggest reason they beat Detroit was because of the defensive structure Therrien instilled in them. And this is all besides the point, the question was whether McDavid would buy into such a system. You seem to imply that McDavid wouldn't because he know better. I bet McDavid agrees with you.

I can't attest to whether the Penguins continued to play defensively like Therrien had coached them to (whether you mean philosophically or structurally) (and whether that meant they continued to trap and sacrificed offensive play by doing so) but that feels like a reach. Either way, attributing most of the Penguins' cup victory to Therrien or Edmonton's improved play to Ekholm more than the coaching changes is a pretty lofty endeavor.

And no, my point is that buying into a system that isn't compatible with your natural style of play isn't the answer to every problem when it comes to winning.

 

[norrisnick]

Yes, that was a fact. Nothing more. Never once talked about his, or McDavid’s 2nd contract. You guys are jumping off the gun way too early.


*3rd contract

Fact remains, his cap hit was 8,7M for the 12 subsequent years, which has been a number he has been very superstitious about throughout his career. Is his cap hit higher if he’s not available to sign a 12 year contract? Maybe, but we’ll never know.

In comparison, Ovechkin in 2008 signed a 13 year contract with an AAV of 9,54M, good for 16,82% of the cap, so the length of the contract didn’t stop him from getting a higher cap hit. Crosby’s 12 year contract in 2012 accounted for 13,53% during the first year and has been steadily on the decline ever since, obviously.

If you didn't want the particulars of Crosby's super-selfless contracts discussed you probably shouldn't have brought them up in the first place.

 

[wetcoast]

I very clearly, every single time, referenced that Yzerman went into every game busting his ass and doing what the coaches told him to do.

This is what you said and it's obvious at some point that he changed his game to be more defensive and less pure offensive it's not a ahrd concept here really.

Nothing about his approach to the game changed. All he ever did from his first game to his last was bust his ass and do whatever it was his coaches told him to do.

If you don't think that emphasizing more on defense and elss on offense isn't a change then I don't know what to tell you I guess nothing ever changes then and it's like your propsterious comments about Crosby's 200 foot game.

There was no "I'm gonna do what I want, f*** the strategy." Followed by "Ok, fine... I'll back check now and stop cheating for offense." That's fantasy.

Nice strawman as no one ever said that but I guess instead of reading you are replying to this imaginary strawman argument.

Crosby has literally nothing to do with the Yzerman tangent. Yzerman came up because there was some confusion about how leadership works and trying to argue that McDavid was a bad leader. Yzerman was a shitty leader until he won and then he became a revered one. But his leadership style, what he brought to the lockerroom and to the rink never changed. The team and the systems employed by the coaching staff changed, which allowed the team to win. But starry-eyed fans want to attribute team success to the glorious qualities of the esteemed captain. That's silliness.

At the end of the day leadership does matter as does winning even if at times some people overstate it.

It's not an uncontroversial statement to say that Crosby is rated higher on the leadership scale even if it's a minor point like say faceoffs were Crosby is better as well.

More importantly is there differences in their 200 foot games but then again you can't see that with your statements it's obvious that you are completely biased about this part of Crosby's game.

 

[wetcoast]

Crosby just had that “it” factor

Source: just trust me bro

Exactly in fact no one in hockey circles has ever brought that up except in a HF Boards forum...go figure eh?

 

[norrisnick]

This is what you said and it's obvious at some point that he changed his game to be more defensive and less pure offensive it's not a ahrd concept here really.

When the coaches asked him to, yes.

If you don't think that emphasizing more on defense and elss on offense isn't a change then I don't know what to tell you I guess nothing ever changes then and it's like your propsterious comments about Crosby's 200 foot game.

Again, it's literally no different than when a coaching staff redesigns the PP schemes. Yes, the players do different things, but the approach "playing as coached" doesn't change.

Nice strawman as no one ever said that but I guess instead of reading you are replying to this imaginary strawman argument.

I'm not the guy tossing around claims of "buying into the program."

At the end of the day leadership does matter as does winning even if at times some people overstate it.

It's not an uncontroversial statement to say that Crosby is rated higher on the leadership scale even if it's a minor point like say faceoffs were Crosby is better as well.

More importantly is there differences in their 200 foot games but then again you can't see that with your statements it's obvious that you are completely biased about this part of Crosby's game.

No one said it was controversial. I said it was silly.

 

[wetcoast]

When the coaches asked him to, yes.

So his approach changed, that wasn't so hard was it?

Again, it's literally no different than when a coaching staff redesigns the PP schemes. Yes, the players do different things, but the approach "playing as coached" doesn't change.

Well that didn't last long

I'm not the guy tossing around claims of "buying into the program."

These are your words and nothing that I have said about Yzerman at any time

There was no "I'm gonna do what I want, f*** the strategy." Followed by "Ok, fine... I'll back check now and stop cheating for offense." That's fantasy.

Like I said a made up straw man that you are answering too but that might explain some of your weird posts in this thread.

No one said it was controversial. I said it was silly.

Silly is a good way to describe your view on it.

 

[GreatGonzo]

This is what you said and it's obvious at some point that he changed his game to be more defensive and less pure offensive it's not a ahrd concept here really.


If you don't think that emphasizing more on defense and elss on offense isn't a change then I don't know what to tell you I guess nothing ever changes then and it's like your propsterious comments about Crosby's 200 foot game.



Nice strawman as no one ever said that but I guess instead of reading you are replying to this imaginary strawman argument.



At the end of the day leadership does matter as does winning even if at times some people overstate it.

It's not an uncontroversial statement to say that Crosby is rated higher on the leadership scale even if it's a minor point like say faceoffs were Crosby is better as well.

More importantly is there differences in their 200 foot games but then again you can't see that with your statements it's obvious that you are completely biased about this part of Crosby's game.

Leadership cannot be measured or followed in any tangible way. So to say there’s a “scale” and he’s high on that scale….what standards are there to be on the scale? What is the criteria? That’s why using leadership as a tangible way of saying one is more impressive than the other doesn’t add up.

You do realize McDavid had better defensive metrics this year than Crosby did, right? You keep implying these HUGE differences in their “200 foot game” and then follow it up with, i don’t have to prove it…if you can’t believe that or can’t see it…that’s your problem..

 

[bambamcam4ever]

I can't attest to whether the Penguins continued to play defensively like Therrien had coached them to (whether you mean philosophically or structurally) (and whether that meant they continued to trap and sacrificed offensive play by doing so) but that feels like a reach. Either way, attributing most of the Penguins' cup victory to Therrien or Edmonton's improved play to Ekholm more than the coaching changes is a pretty lofty endeavor.

And no, my point is that buying into a system that isn't compatible with your natural style of play isn't the answer to every problem when it comes to winning.

Sure it's not the answer to every problem, but when your preferred play style is at odds with the vast majority of the players on your team, and league for that matter, it's not a stretch to say that has a negative impact on your teammates production, and possibly the team's success.

 

[norrisnick]

Sure the team got better but Scotty Bowman also got Yzerman to commit to the program.

Huh...

Maybe remember what you post, dude.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Sure it's not the answer to every problem, but when your preferred play style is at odds with the vast majority of the players on your team, and league for that matter, it's not a stretch to say that has a negative impact on your teammates production, and possibly the team's success.

Prove it I would love to hear your expertise as to how McDavids style of play and overall game negatively impacts the team..