Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[EXTRAS]

Mcdavid had a lot of points this season. Mcdavid did not dominate. Kucherov/mcdavid/mackinnon all pretty equal offensively. Just as many seasons crosby/ovi/malkin were similar. However this year contributes to mcdavid having a way better pt/gm than crosby. It's just a high scoring era so the difference between the two isn't as significant as people make it out to be.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Don’t want to get off topic but thanks for illustrating my point.

5 time Art Ross winner is a complimentary player lol

Couldn't get out of the second round without Lemieux

 

[bobholly39]

Couldn't get out of the second round without Lemieux

Jagr made it out of the 2nd round without Lemieux
Lemieux didn't make it out of the 2nd round without Jagr

I guess that makes Mario Lemieux a complimentary player.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Couldn't get out of the second round without Lemieux

In 1992 he did.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Thank you for making my point about cherry picking then providing a couple of examples.

You don't have a point. I posted total career stats.

 

[Midnight Judges]

No I understand what is being discussed and your viewpoint about anything Crosby as do most people reading this thread.

No. You don't.

The Penguins have been quite good without Crosby over the years. Sure, they weren't very good his rookie season, and that's about it, but that amounts to 6.3% of his total games played. Yet you held that up as some sort of huge factor in the overall quality of the team around him. It isn't. It factors in on 6.3% of the sample.

So again, your post is not demonstrating a comprehension of the discussion, the numbers, the proportions, or the opinions being stated.

The fact is, the Penguins have generally had a points percentage ranging from .620 to .714 when Crosby is not on the ice. Crosby's team, without Crosby, has often been a first or second place team - and this specifically undermines the false narratives that Crosby fans have tried to sell over the years - that Sid is surrounded with AHL caliber players or carrying the team. Aside from his rookie season, it was never true.

 

[Golden_Jet]

These guys are in a tier right below Gretzky and Lemieux
GOATS Gretzky and Lemieux. Imagine them with modern day equiptment, coaching, and training. This rankings are just my opinion based on players I have seen in my lifetime and watched highlights off. I am in my late thirties. I am not claiming my opinion is absolute fact, but just my point of view.
Top 10 GOATS of all times
1a/b Gretzky and Lemieux
2a/2b Crosby/McDavid
3a/b Orr and Lidstrom
4a/4b Gordie and Mark
5a/5b Coffee and Borque
6a/6b Yzerman and Sackic
7a/7B Forsberg and Lindros
8a/8b Esposito and Howe
9a/9b Lafleur/Beliveau
10a/10b Richard Rocket and Brodeur
There are lot sof young hall of famers in the nhl currently, but no one outside of McDAvid has shown a top 10 status yet.

Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time

Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time The following is the final list of the top hockey players of all-time as determined by 32 voting members of the History of Hockey community. Report any errors to @quoipourquoi RankPlayerPositionBornNationBirth City 1Wayne GretzkyC1961CanadaBrantford...

forums.hfboards.com

 

[Golden_Jet]

In his rookie season Crosby's supporting cast was horrible and he was 18 it's like grading Bedard this season say if in 3 or 4 years he misses some games and the team has a better winning % than this season it's not because of Crosby but different team situations.

Good grief stop being so obtuse and read slower. It’s been written 3x now for you.

Crosby’s rookie season wasn’t included in calculation. Malkin wasn’t in the NHL yet. ​

 

[nbwingsfan]

The funniest thing in this thread (at least in the recent pages) is that most of the people who advocate for McDavid over Crosby don’t even care about McDavid that much, they just hate Crosby with a passion and are just here to tear him down

The exact same things can be said for Pens fans coming up with the most outlandish statements regarding McDavid to try and and prove (maybe to themselves?) that Crosby was better

In his rookie season Crosby's supporting cast was horrible and he was 18 it's like grading Bedard this season say if in 3 or 4 years he misses some games and the team has a better winning % than this season it's not because of Crosby but different team situations.

The user knows full well how week that argument is but he has his own agenda.


No I understand what is being discussed and your viewpoint about anything Crosby as do most people reading this thread.

The supporting casts of Crosby and Bedard were not even remotely comparable.

 

[Midnight Judges]

At any time, they could have shoved the absolute best linemates (in this case, Malkin etc.) onto Crosby's wing and saw his production skyrocket. They didn't, and even then, his on-ice impact was generational.

That is demonstrably false. They tried that. It didn't work.

In 2009, Malkin and Crosby played quite a bit together - factoring in on 50%+ of each other's points for the season. It absolutely did not result in their production "skyrocketing." Each of them matched or exceeded that productivity with other supporting players.

The truth is they aren't all that great together at ES - and we have quite a lot of data on this.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

14 minute back checking video, I’ll be sure to show that to my grandchildren

Will help explain things

If your grandchildrens truly care about sports, they will ask you why Crosby won three times, while McDavid couldn’t win once, despite being surrounded by similar talent and dominating the league to a similar degree.

I truly wish you get to see your team win in your lifetime. You’ll see that the moment your guy touches the cup will be 100% times better than watching him at the NHL Awards get called to accept his Art-Ross.

 

[Golden_Jet]

If your grandchildrens truly care about sports, they will ask you why Crosby won three times, while McDavid couldn’t win once, despite being surrounded by similar talent and dominating the league to a similar degree.

I truly wish you get to see your team win in your lifetime. You’ll see that the moment your guy touches the cup will be 100% times better than watching him at the NHL Awards get called to accept his Art-Ross.

Did McDavid retire?
What does video have to do with response. Nothing.

 

[bobholly39]

The same cast of deluded haters in every Crosby thread.

Living rent free in their heads for 20 years.

There's a lot of deluded posters on both sides of the aisle in this thread

 

[Voight]

This year’s Edmonton team was every bit as good as the 91’ Pens……However, the Pens got it done, Edmonton did not. At some point whiny excuses have to be looked at as just that. At some point, you got to get the job done.

No it wasn't.

The 91 Pens had 9 hall of famers (including Jagr), I highly doubt the 2024 Oilers will come anywhere close to that. McDavid and Draisaitl sure, possibly Bouchard and then Perry (but he was a very minor contributor to this years team).

 

[wetcoast]

14 minute back checking video, I’ll be sure to show that to my grandchildren

Will help explain things

You're absolutely right on there brother Drebin.

 

[Frank Drebin]

If your grandchildrens truly care about sports, they will ask you why Crosby won three times, while McDavid couldn’t win once, despite being surrounded by similar talent and dominating the league to a similar degree.

I truly wish you get to see your team win in your lifetime. You’ll see that the moment your guy touches the cup will be 100% times better than watching him at the NHL Awards get called to accept his Art-Ross.

Just like when I ask my dad why Larry Robinson won the cup 6 times and bobby Orr only twice

I grew up a habs fan. They are still my number one team

I watched them win in 1993. Long time ago. 2017 already 7 years ago too

It will be great to see mcdavid lift the cup
It won’t change my opinion on him as a player

You understand that, yes?

 

[wetcoast]

Yzerman was always committed to the program. The program didn't change to clamp the shit down until the '96-'97 season.

I'm sorry but the stats, you know the stuff you hang you hat on don't bare that narrative out.

Yzerman's SOG rate dramatically changed after the 93-94 season where the upstart sharks, led by a peak young Larionov beat the Red wings in a 7 game series for the ages.

Again, Yzerman's approach to the game never changed. He busted his ass and did what the coaches asked him to do. It might have looked different on the ice, but again, that's because the overall philosophy from the coaching staff changed. The whole team dramatically changed styles. It wasn't because Yzerman finally listened to the coaches. It's because the coaches were saying different things.

Just like your definition of defense with nobody being able to achieve it no players approach changes but the eye test tells us differently.

I specifically was talking about fans' discussion leadership, not players. And yes, fans spouting off on who is or isn't a leader is very condescending.

Then maybe follow your own advice here others shouldn't be limited by your incapacity to evaluate such things.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Just like when I ask my dad why Larry Robinson won the cup 6 times and bobby Orr only twice

I grew up a habs fan. They are still my number one team

I watched them win in 1993. Long time ago. 2017 already 7 years ago too

It will be great to see mcdavid lift the cup
It won’t change my opinion on him as a player

You understand that, yes?

Oh look, another apples to oranges comparison brought to you by the McDavid side to help them cope with their delusion.

You better jump off the Oilers bandwagon and get back on the Habs train, chances are they’ll have a better shot at the cup after 2026 when Edmonton has four 9M+ players in their lineup and won’t be able to afford anything else.

 

[wetcoast]

NHLPA Player Poll 2023-24

The players gave their takes on the NHL's hottest topics.

www.nhlpa.com

“Which player is the most difficult player to face in their own end?”​

Really? Interesting….

So you can’t explain it basically just say that.

Okay that's fair enough he got 9.48% of the vote with a strange question.

Something more definitive is the question of who is the most complete player in the game with 38.37% eh?

Also we are comparing careers not just a single season here right?

Or the "if you need to win a faceoff which player would you pick"? Crosby 2nd there again 13.59%

But sure your crowd think he is crap defensively.

But seriously I'm all for looking at these polls every year and other have mentioned them as well so it's great that you agree here that's some common ground.

be sure to tell your friends in Detroit and washington about the news.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Oh look, another apples to oranges comparison brought to you by the McDavid side to help them cope with their delusion.

You better jump off the Oilers bandwagon and get back on the Habs train, chances are they’ll have a better shot at the cup after 2026 when Edmonton has four 9M+ players in their lineup and won’t be able to afford anything else.

Habs lol,

 

[wetcoast]

This doesn’t really bother me as much as you hope it does

I’ve been fortunate to be able to watch the best player since Mario Lemieux suit up for my home team for the last 9 seasons

We were gifted him and if we can’t build a proper team around him so be it. Won’t change his legacy any more than a 14 minute back checking video

I’ll still enjoy watching him dominate the regular season and playoffs in a way penguins fans haven’t seen since the early 90s

And I’m fully aware that if/once he leaves the oilers will never have another contender in my lifetime.

Just blessed to be able to enjoy this extraordinary player rather than sulking in the corner trying to trick myself into thinking my guy was actually better

And when the next one comes along I won’t be like these childish pens fans. I’ll enjoy and embrace that player and will spend zero time trying to convince myself that he’s not better than mcdavid

That's not what this thread is about the question is are they on the same tier?

And sure McDavid very well might pass him one day (and I think that could happen even without a SC) but don't go and start adding imaginary things as 2 certain guys will jump all over you for that....wait it's okay if you do it for McDavid by them so carry on.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Oh look, another apples to oranges comparison brought to you by the McDavid side to help them cope with their delusion.

You better jump off the Oilers bandwagon and get back on the Habs train, chances are they’ll have a better shot at the cup after 2026 when Edmonton has four 9M+ players in their lineup and won’t be able to afford anything else.

Oilers cap situation is horrendous

9.5 million 3rd pairing guy
2 million buyout penalty on James neal
5 m in dead space for a supposed starter

That could really use a prime Crosby to lead them out of this mess

That's not what this thread is about the question is are they on the same tier?

And sure McDavid very well might pass him one day (and I think that could happen even without a SC) but don't go and start adding imaginary things as 2 certain guys will jump all over you for that....wait it's okay if you do it for McDavid by them so carry on.

Mcdavid is the better player

That puts him on a different tier by default

If you want to argue the size of the tier isn’t that large by exaggerating Crosbys accomplishments and minimizing Mcdavids that’s on you

 

[wetcoast]

No. You don't.

The Penguins have been quite good without Crosby over the years. Sure, they weren't very good his rookie season, and that's about it, but that amounts to 6.3% of his total games played. Yet you held that up as some sort of huge factor in the overall quality of the team around him. It isn't. It factors in on 6.3% of the sample.

So again, your post is not demonstrating a comprehension of the discussion, the numbers, the proportions, or the opinions being stated.

The fact is, the Penguins have generally had a points percentage ranging from .620 to .714 when Crosby is not on the ice. Crosby's team, without Crosby, has often been a first or second place team - and this specifically undermines the false narratives that Crosby fans have tried to sell over the years - that Sid is surrounded with AHL caliber players or carrying the team. Aside from his rookie season, it was never true.

Typical general comments that mean nothing and the AHL strawman argument is yours no one else's.

Everyone knows that your downplaying of crosby serves one purpose only and that's to prop up your guy who is great but no crosby all time so it is what it is.

Good grief stop being so obtuse and read slower. It’s been written 3x now for you.

Crosby’s rookie season wasn’t included in calculation. Malkin wasn’t in the NHL yet. ​

It was included in MJ's original statement he isn't that fair about things everyone knows that.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Oilers cap situation is horrendous

9.5 million 3rd pairing guy
2 million buyout penalty on James neal
5 m in dead space for a supposed starter

That could really use a prime Crosby to lead them out of this mess


Mcdavid is the better player

That puts him on a different tier by default

If you want to argue the size of the tier isn’t that large by exaggerating Crosbys accomplishments and minimizing Mcdavids that’s on you

Actually, you’d be asking the right guy. Crosby has been notoriously known for signing a 12 year contract at a lower salary agaisnt the cap that he could’ve gotten, just so his team could get out and get better players.

PuckPedia says that at the time of the signature, in 2012, Crosby’s cap hit of 8,7M accounted for 13,53% of the salary cap. That % has consistently gone down since and will be at just below 10% for the next season.

We’ll see if McDavid follows his footsteps by offering his team similar leverage to help them build a better team, at the signature of his next contract.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Actually, you’d be asking the right guy. Crosby has been notoriously known for signing a 12 year contract at a lower salary agaisnt the cap that he could’ve gotten, just so his team could get out and get better players.

PuckPedia says that at the time of the signature, in 2012, Crosby’s cap hit of 8,7M accounted for 13,53% of the salary cap. That % has consistently gone down since and will be at just below 10% for the next season.

We’ll see if McDavid follows his footsteps by offering his team similar leverage to help them build a better team, at the signature of his next contract.

A back diving, 12 year, illegal contract? Signed just before the new cba banning those types of contracts?

Altruistic Crosby was making 12m a year back in 2014,15,16

Altruistic Crosby made 86.4 m over the first 8 years of that deal an average of 10.8 per year

Which back in 2014 would have been 16.7 percent of the cap

In todays dollars that would be 14m

In 2 years when the cap is 90, about 15m

Let’s see if mcdavid is altruistic as Crosby was