Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[MacMacandBarbie]

Any more individual hardware and perhaps upping his game one final time to the tune of 160 points, and the stragglers arguing that he’s not #5 are going to be dismissed and laughed at, as they deserve.

The 'big 4' is a weak thing that gets thrown around on these boards only from what I have seen. Its a collection of names that are acceptable to be brought up in conversations with the great one, including the great one. I don't think really anybody considers Howe the best, but instead use him as a barometer for 'Do you even belong in the conversation' because nobody is going to be able to out compile Howe.

Lemieux and Orr can be considered better than Gretzky, and it would be a hot take, but people would listen. Because when Orr/Lemieux was healthy, they looked unstoppable. They could be hurt and still be the best player that year.

This is a level McDavid hasn't shown. He isn't rattling off 7 straight Art Rosses. He isn't stealing Art Rosses from a prime Gretzky, and looking like the greatest goal scorer this league ever saw while doing it. Orr had 8 consecutive Norris trophies and won the Art Ross as a defenseman.

McDavid is on track to maybe be considered as good as Howe. When it is all said and done, he will be talked about in the same breath as Howe/Lidstrom/Hasek/Jagr/Ovechkin/Bourque/Crosby, and that is okay. Trying to shoehorn him into an entire 'tier' will go about the same way it has for the people who posed that question about Bourque, Lidstrom, Hasek, and Jagr. Close but no cigar.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

That’s your wrong perception of it. If you were as fair as you claimed, you’d recognize the guy likely didn’t even know he was called out for it, because he was in the locker room being a leader after being out on the ice for much longer than necessary after the loss. After all, he spent multiple minutes leading the way congratulating the Panthers and then consoling his teammates. I analyzed the Giguère presentation and while I don’t care to go over it again, he was presented the award the second the handshakes were concluded.

It was an entirely different situation. What the hell else do you want him to do?

You can't honestly think that the NHL didn't tell him he won. It's a tough situation he was in and I don't personally judge him harshly for it, but it gives off that impression.

 

[ChaosAgent]

They're in the same tier of player that the eventual #5 is trying to elbow to the front of.

Centers don't magically get elevated a tier just for being centers.

Was. Unfortunately.

Sorry about the cat. Seriously. I'm going to hate it when I lose mine.

Admittedly I am not as up on all-time player rankings, but I always viewed Bourque as being in a similar tier to Lidstrom. While awesome, I think Crosby, McDavid and Ovechkin are going to all eclipse everyone except the big 4. Ovechkin because breaking Gretzky's goals record is insane, even though I don't think he's nearly as good of a player as Crosby and McDavid.

Once the anchoring bias dies away, I think Crosby, McDavid and Ovechkin start getting interspersed with Howe/Mario/even Orr, and McDavid has the highest upside. In a way Crosby's upside is capped because Pittsburgh will always vote Mario, so he'll have trouble ever being ranked ahead of Mario.

Goalies are a slightly different category so I won't argue if someone wants to randomly throw Hasek or Roy in there. It won't be the consensus opinion to include them though.

 

[norrisnick]

Sorry about the cat. Seriously. I'm going to hate it when I lose mine.

Admittedly I am not as up on all-time player rankings, but I always viewed Bourque as being in a similar tier to Lidstrom. While awesome, I think Crosby, McDavid and Ovechkin are going to all eclipse everyone except the big 4. Ovechkin because breaking Gretzky's goals record is insane, even though I don't think he's nearly as good of a player as Crosby and McDavid.

Once the anchoring bias dies away, I think Crosby, McDavid and Ovechkin start getting interspersed with Howe/Mario/even Orr, and McDavid has the highest upside. In a way Crosby's upside is capped because Pittsburgh will always vote Mario, so he'll have trouble ever being ranked ahead of Mario.

Goalies are a slightly different category so I won't argue if someone wants to randomly throw Hasek or Roy in there. It won't be the consensus opinion to include them though.

Correct, and scorer-bias aside they have as good an argument for #5 as anyone (there are like 10 players in this group), though McDavid is threatening to make the point moot and then it's a pack for #6.

 

[Letsdothis]

Lemieux and Orr can be considered better than Gretzky, and it would be a hot take, but people would listen. Because when Orr/Lemieux was healthy, they looked unstoppable. They could be hurt and still be the best player that year.

This is a level McDavid hasn't shown. He isn't rattling off 7 straight Art Rosses. He isn't stealing Art Rosses from a prime Gretzky, and looking like the greatest goal scorer this league ever saw while doing it. Orr had 8 consecutive Norris trophies and won the Art Ross as a defenseman.

It's a little bit easier when you go up against only Canadian competition. McDavid led all Canadian players in points 7 seasons in a row from 16-23.

There's never going to be a player that dominates like Bobby Orr, not because there will never be a talent like him but because the sport is more competitive and gaining such an edge over your peers is no longer possible.

 

[Video Nasty]

The 'big 4' is a weak thing that gets thrown around on these boards only from what I have seen. Its a collection of names that are acceptable to be brought up in conversations with the great one, including the great one. I don't think really anybody considers Howe the best, but instead use him as a barometer for 'Do you even belong in the conversation' because nobody is going to be able to out compile Howe.

Lemieux and Orr can be considered better than Gretzky, and it would be a hot take, but people would listen. Because when Orr/Lemieux was healthy, they looked unstoppable. They could be hurt and still be the best player that year.

This is a level McDavid hasn't shown. He isn't rattling off 7 straight Art Rosses. He isn't stealing Art Rosses from a prime Gretzky, and looking like the greatest goal scorer this league ever saw while doing it. Orr had 8 consecutive Norris trophies and won the Art Ross as a defenseman.

McDavid is on track to maybe be considered as good as Howe. When it is all said and done, he will be talked about in the same breath as Howe/Lidstrom/Hasek/Jagr/Ovechkin/Bourque/Crosby, and that is okay. Trying to shoehorn him into an entire 'tier' will go about the same way it has for the people who posed that question about Bourque, Lidstrom, Hasek, and Jagr. Close but no cigar.

Disagree.

At worst, he will be in his own tier above the usual eight to ten players in the conversation for #5. His accomplishments already equal or dwarf most of them, and the gap is only going to grow larger. When a player likely ends up with 2000 points, 4-5 Harts, 5-6 Lindsays, 6-8 Art Rosses, wins a couple of Cups and Conn Smythes, has multiple finalist nominations in his pocket and raw points/PPG greater than any of that grouping, while displaying dominance not seen since any of the Big Four, yeah, it’s going to be silly to pretend he’s not in his own tier above Crosby/Jagr/Ovechkin and so on.

I’m hardly the only one who is going to give him bonus points for doing what he is doing in the modern day with 30-32 teams against his peers having their entire lives revolve nearly exclusively around their craft and profession.

You can't honestly think that the NHL didn't tell him he won. It's a tough situation he was in and I don't personally judge him harshly for it, but it gives off that impression.

If people want to wrongly ding him for it, so be it. It just signals to me that they don’t have a clue what they’re talking about. I appreciate you at least meeting me halfway.

 

[norrisnick]

The 'big 4' is a weak thing that gets thrown around on these boards only from what I have seen. Its a collection of names that are acceptable to be brought up in conversations with the great one, including the great one. I don't think really anybody considers Howe the best, but instead use him as a barometer for 'Do you even belong in the conversation' because nobody is going to be able to out compile Howe.

Lemieux and Orr can be considered better than Gretzky, and it would be a hot take, but people would listen. Because when Orr/Lemieux was healthy, they looked unstoppable. They could be hurt and still be the best player that year.

This is a level McDavid hasn't shown. He isn't rattling off 7 straight Art Rosses. He isn't stealing Art Rosses from a prime Gretzky, and looking like the greatest goal scorer this league ever saw while doing it. Orr had 8 consecutive Norris trophies and won the Art Ross as a defenseman.

McDavid is on track to maybe be considered as good as Howe. When it is all said and done, he will be talked about in the same breath as Howe/Lidstrom/Hasek/Jagr/Ovechkin/Bourque/Crosby, and that is okay. Trying to shoehorn him into an entire 'tier' will go about the same way it has for the people who posed that question about Bourque, Lidstrom, Hasek, and Jagr. Close but no cigar.

Hate to break it to you, but Lemieux is the barometer. And Mario is well within McDavid's sights.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Admittedly I am not as up on all-time player rankings, but I always viewed Bourque as being in a similar tier to Lidstrom.

This is accurate, Bourque is the reason it took Lidstrom so long to start taking home the Norris consistently.

While awesome, I think Crosby, McDavid and Ovechkin are going to all eclipse everyone except the big 4. Ovechkin because breaking Gretzky's goals record is insane, even though I don't think he's nearly as good of a player as Crosby and McDavid.

Once the anchoring bias dies away, I think Crosby, McDavid and Ovechkin start getting interspersed with Howe/Mario/even Orr, and McDavid has the highest upside. In a way Crosby's upside is capped because Pittsburgh will always vote Mario, so he'll have trouble ever being ranked ahead of Mario.

I don't think its anchoring bias. I think people see Mario as a slightly better version of Ovechkin's absolute peak of 2008-2010, with better playmaking. Orr redefined his position, and won 8 straight Norris trophies. Lidstrom/Bourque firmly on the outside in the defenseman rankings.

Howe is the interesting one, because he doesn't have the dominance of Orr/Lemieux to be considered as good as Gretzky. So that is where the name would have to start. Not only does he have the trophy cabinet compiled, and the record books compiled, but he defined and helped build the sport across multiple generations. To get into Howe territory you don't just need to come with 6 Art Ross and 6 Hart, but you need his history of success too with 4 cups, and then it would be nice if you were extremely iconic as well.

Disagree.

At worst, he will be in his own tier above the usual eight to ten players in the conversation for #5. His accomplishments already equal or dwarf most of them, and the gap is only going to grow larger. When a player likely ends up with 2000 points, 4-5 Harts, 5-6 Lindsays, 6-8 Art Rosses, wins a couple of Cups and Conn Smythes, has multiple finalist nominations in his pocket and raw points/PPG greater than any of that grouping, while displaying dominance not seen since any of the Big Four, yeah, it’s going to be silly to pretend he’s not in his own tier above Crosby/Jagr/Ovechkin and so on.

I’m hardly the only one who is going to give him bonus points for doing what he is doing in the modern day with 30-32 teams against his peers having their entire lives revolve nearly exclusively around their craft and profession.



If people want to wrongly ding him for it, so be it. It just signals to me that they don’t have a clue what they’re talking about. I appreciate you at least meeting me halfway.

I disagree. Lidstrom compiled 7 Norris trophies, Ovechkin compiled the most Rockets and got the goal scoring record(probably), and then Jagr compiled 5 Art Ross and has 2,000 points of his own. McDavid needs to significantly compile to exceed the conversations that involve these names.

 

[bobbyking]

one puts up gretzky numbers

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Hate to break it to you, but Lemieux is the barometer. And Mario is well within McDavid's sights.

Well I respect your minority opinion. Lemieux with his injuries has been out compiled awhile ago by many players, so not sure what time is going to do for McDavid.

Either you think McDavid is better at hockey than Lemieux at this point or you don't. We have seen enough of both players to make the call.

 

[Video Nasty]

This is accurate, Bourque is the reason it took Lidstrom so long to start taking home the Norris consistently.

I don't think its anchoring bias. I think people see Mario as a slightly better version of Ovechkin's absolute peak of 2008-2010, with better playmaking. Orr redefined his position, and won 8 straight Norris trophies. Lidstrom/Bourque firmly on the outside in the defenseman rankings.

Howe is the interesting one, because he doesn't have the dominance of Orr/Lemieux to be considered as good as Gretzky. So that is where the name would have to start. Not only does he have the trophy cabinet compiled, and the record books compiled, but he defined and helped build the sport across multiple generations. To get into Howe territory you don't just need to come with 6 Art Ross and 6 Hart, but you need his history of success too with 4 cups, and then it would be nice if you were extremely iconic as well.


I disagree. Lidstrom compiled 7 Norris trophies, Ovechkin complied the most Rockets and got the goal scoring record(probably), and then Jagr compiled 5 Art Ross and has 2,000 points of his own. McDavid needs to significantly compile to exceed the conversations that involve these names.

Lidstrom isn’t in the discussion. Ovechkin lost his powers after age 24. He has 1 Art Ross. Jagr may have five Art Rosses, but he only has one Hart (to his credit he has five additional finalist nods, including four runner ups). He doesn’t have a signature playoff run. Both wingers have less Pearsons/Lindsays. He has 1921 points and I’m pretty sure McDavid will break 2000 in fewer games than 1733 games and being 45 years of age.

McDavid has done as much, if not more, than most of the #5 candidates and it’s taken him only 9 seasons. In fact, since Orr’s retirement, Gretzky is the only one who has racked up more individual hardware through 9 seasons than McDavid.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Lidstrom isn’t in the discussion. Ovechkin lost his powers after age 24. He has 1 Art Ross. Jagr may have five Art Rosses, but he only has one Hart (to his credit he has five additional finalist nods, including four runner ups). He doesn’t have a signature playoff run. Both wingers have less Pearsons/Lindsays. He has 1921 points and I’m pretty sure McDavid will break 2000 in fewer games than 1733 games and being 45 years of age.

Lidstrom is in the in the discussion for me. 7 Norris and was the cornerstone of one of the greatest teams of all time. I also have Hasek there, as he won 5 Vezina in 6 years, 6 Vezina overall, 2 Hart, 2 Pearson, and 3 Jennings. McDavid would have to start to out compile Howe for a forward to beat what those two did in their respective positions for a lot of people, not just me.

 

[pi314]

one puts up gretzky numbers

I must have missed where in Gretzky’s prime he lost a scoring title to two other players.

Pretty sure Gretzky lapped the competition.

 

[Video Nasty]

Lidstrom is in the in the discussion for me. 7 Norris and was the cornerstone of one of the greatest teams of all time. I also have Hasek there, as he won 5 Vezina in 6 years, 6 Vezina overall, 2 Hart, 2 Pearson, and 3 Jennings. McDavid would have to start to out compile Howe for a forward to beat what those two did in their respective positions for a lot of people, not just me.

I promise you, in as little as one to two years, McDavid will be near universal #5, other than from the holdouts like yourself. We’ve already seen it building and the rumblings were loud when the 3-0 comeback was nearly pulled off. In five to six years and certainly by the end of his career, Gretzky will likely be the only player considered to have a better career than him.

Make no mistake; I still believe Gretzky and Lemieux are better players. McDavid would have to raise the bar again in a way that even I don’t think is possible for me to reconsider that.

But I also believe that the hockey world at large will value what McDavid does over an 18-20 season career in present day, more than Orr and Lemieux’s fractured careers. We’re already seeing Howe being doubted a bit due to more and more time slipping by (even by you, claiming he didn’t have dominance like Lemieux, even though he actually did). It’s not hard to foresee when we’re witnessing people go gaga for Crosby merely remaining great for longer than we could have asked for, post 2012 worries (while piling up zero hardware past age 29).

McDavid will also enjoy the benefit (that he earned) of The Big Four being a group that hasn’t had new blood for a long time.

It’s coming fast. Buckle up and enjoy the ride, rather digging your heels in and only pretending to come around when the guy has the hockey world eating out of his hand during the retirement tour in 10-12 years.

When he has the same amount or more hardware than anyone outside Gretzky and has over 2000 points, there’s going to be very little pushback when he splinters the Big Four and remolds it into a Big Five, where he basically has a case against anyone other than Gretzky. Try not to be shocked when you start seeing him listed as second all-time, ala LeBron in his own sport.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I promise you, in as little as one to two years, McDavid will be near universal #5, other than from the holdouts like yourself. We’ve already seen it building and the rumblings were loud when the 3-0 comeback was nearly pulled off. In five to six years and certainly by the end of his career, Gretzky will likely be the only player considered to have a better career than him.

It certainly is within the realm of possibility, but hard to see right now.

Make no mistake; I still believe Gretzky and Lemieux are better players. McDavid would have to raise the bar again in a way that even I don’t think is possible for me to reconsider that.

But I also believe that the hockey world at large will value what McDavid does over an 18-20 season career in present day, more than Orr and Lemieux’s fractured careers.

Also possible, but hard to see.

We’re already seeing Howe being doubted a bit due to more and more time slipping by (even by you, claiming he didn’t have dominance like Lemieux, even though he actually did). It’s not hard to foresee when we’re witnessing people go gaga for Crosby merely remaining great for longer than we could have asked for, post 2012 worries (while piling up zero hardware past age 29).

I am not the first person to think that Howe didn't dominate the way Lemieux did. Lemieux being the best to lace them up is not a novel viewpoint. I really don't think we have seen anybody dominate both goal scoring and playmaking the way Lemieux did. I suppose Ovechkin was close in his peak 2008-2010 years, but not quite as dominant playmaking wise. Gretzky also had a couple years as well. Nobody else comes to mind, even Howe.

McDavid will also enjoy the benefit (that he earned) of The Big Four being a group that hasn’t had new blood for a long time.

It’s coming fast. Buckle up and enjoy the ride, rather digging your heels in and only pretending to come around when the guy has the hockey world eating out of his hand during the retirement tour in 10-12 years.

When he has the same amount or more hardware than anyone outside Gretzky and has over 2000 points, there’s going to be very little pushback when he splinters the Big Four and remolds it into a Big Five, where he basically has a case against anyone other than Gretzky. Try not to be shocked when you start seeing him listed as second all-time, ala LeBron in his own sport.

I mean it is certainly possible. It is also possible we have seen all but maybe a couple more strong award contention years for McDavid at most though. Guy is almost 28, has nagging injuries, and even when healthy has his work cut out for him. Bedard is coming up, Panarin is on an up and coming Rangers team, Mackinnon/Kucherov aren't going anywhere in the next couple years. Crosby could be reading this thread and catch a resurgence just to prove Video Nasty on HFBoards wrong.

It is likely we have seen the best of McDavid, and its okay if he doesn't get immortalized and put on 'Mount Rushmore' at the end of his career.

 

[Video Nasty]

It certainly is within the realm of possibility, but hard to see right now.

Also possible, but hard to see.

I am not the first person to think that Howe didn't dominate the way Lemieux did. Lemieux being the best to lace them up is not a novel viewpoint. I really don't think we have seen anybody dominate both goal scoring and playmaking the way Lemieux did. I suppose Ovechkin was close in his peak 2008-2010 years, but not quite as dominant playmaking wise. Gretzky also had a couple years as well. Nobody else comes to mind, even Howe.

I mean it is certainly possible. It is also possible we have seen all but maybe a couple more strong award contention years for McDavid at most though. Guy is almost 28, has nagging injuries, and even when healthy has his work cut out for him. Bedard is coming up, Panarin is on an up a coming Rangers team, Mackinnon/Kucherov aren't going anywhere in the next couple years. It is likely we have seen the best of McDavid, and its okay if he doesn't get immortalized at the end of his career.

I appreciate the fairly neutral response. That’s probably the best I can hope for up to this point.

Anything can certainly happen. But I expect McDavid to being scooping up major hardware even inside his 30s. MacKinnon and Kucherov had wonderful seasons, but they don’t scare me. I’m fairly certain we just saw their best, which is still below McDavid’s best. McDavid stormed all the way back with those nagging injuries from 20 points down in the span of just under a month and actually reached 125 points before either of them, and neither were slumping while it was happening. I trust him to dust them again this upcoming season, similar to how he did just a year ago.

I’m extremely high on Bedard, but consider me shocked if he manages to snag an Art Ross before McDavid is 32, unless of course McDavid starts missing significant time. Panarin likely just peaked.

I think he has a chance to win as many Art Rosses in his 30s as Gretzky and Lemieux did combined (4x).

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I appreciate the fairly neutral response. That’s probably the best I can hope for up to this point.

Anything can certainly happen. But I expect McDavid to being scooping up major hardware even inside his 30s. MacKinnon and Kucherov had wonderful seasons, but they don’t scare me. McDavid stormed all the way back with those nagging injuries from 20 points down in the span of just under a month and actually reached 125 points before either of them. I trust him to dust them again this upcoming season, similar to how he did just a year ago. I’m extremely high on Bedard, but consider me shocked if he manages to snag an Art Ross before McDavid is 32, unless of course McDavid starts missing significant time. Panarin likely just peaked.

I am neutral about McDavid. Right now he is 3 Hart trophies behind Howe. I don't think he comes close to catching him, and I think he ends up being the best of the Hasek/Ovechkin/Jagr group of elite compilers when all is said and done, but doesn't amass quite the cabinet as Howe or leave quite the same mark on the sport.

 

[norrisnick]

It certainly is within the realm of possibility, but hard to see right now.

Also possible, but hard to see.

I am not the first person to think that Howe didn't dominate the way Lemieux did. Lemieux being the best to lace them up is not a novel viewpoint. I really don't think we have seen anybody dominate both goal scoring and playmaking the way Lemieux did. I suppose Ovechkin was close in his peak 2008-2010 years, but not quite as dominant playmaking wise. Gretzky also had a couple years as well. Nobody else comes to mind, even Howe.

I mean it is certainly possible. It is also possible we have seen all but maybe a couple more strong award contention years for McDavid at most though. Guy is almost 28, has nagging injuries, and even when healthy has his work cut out for him. Bedard is coming up, Panarin is on an up and coming Rangers team, Mackinnon/Kucherov aren't going anywhere in the next couple years. Crosby could be reading this thread and catch a resurgence just to prove Video Nasty on HFBoards wrong.

It is likely we have seen the best of McDavid, and its okay if he doesn't get immortalized and put on 'Mount Rushmore' at the end of his career.

I mean, if you don't actually look at what Howe did, yeah you can disregard his achievements.

Howe led the league in goals 5 times and finished top 3 another 7 times.
Howe led the league in assists 3 times and finished top 3 another 8 times.

Mario led the league in goals 3 times and finished top 3 another 3 times.
Mario led the league in assists 3 times and finished top 3 another 4 times.

Howe broke the single season scoring record in '51. In '52 he matched that record. In '53 he shattered it.
In 1969, at 40 years of age, he, 26yo Phil Esposito, and 30 yo Bobby Hull became the first three players to break the 100 point season mark.

The myth that Howe just played a long time needs to die.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I mean, if you don't actually look at what Howe did, yeah you can disregard his achievements.

I didn't disregard his achievements, I just said Lemieux was better. I, like some, have Lemieux as the best to ever lace them up. Best goal scorer ever that also could steal an Art Ross from prime Gretzky while doing so.

Howe led the league in goals 5 times and finished top 3 another 7 times.
Howe led the league in assists 3 times and finished top 3 another 8 times.

Mario led the league in goals 3 times and finished top 3 another 3 times.
Mario led the league in assists 3 times and finished top 3 another 4 times.

Howe broke the single season scoring record in '51. In '52 he matched that record. In '53 he shattered it.
In 1969, at 40 years of age, he, 26yo Phil Esposito, and 30 yo Bobby Hull became the first three players to break the 100 point season mark.

The myth that Howe just played a long time needs to die.

Yeah, he is a monster. 6 Hart trophies. McDavid isn't catching him.

 

[Video Nasty]

I am neutral about McDavid. Right now he is 3 Hart trophies behind Howe. I don't think he comes close to catching him, and I think he ends up being the best of the Hasek/Ovechkin/Jagr group of elite compilers when all is said and done, but doesn't amass quite the cabinet as Howe or leave quite the same mark on the sport.

I do have a suspicion that McDavid might only win one more Hart in his career, with two being a faint possibility. He’s been voted top 5 eight years in a row, has been a finalist 6 times, and has won 3. If he already hasn’t been, he’s soon to be battling voter fatigue and of course his own high standards.

Yet I also think 4, 5, whatever it ends up being Harts in a 30-32 team league is at least as impressive as Howe collecting 6 in a 6 team league 65-75 years ago. I’m sorry, I just do.

As mentioned, McDavid currently has 8 consecutive top 5 finishes through 9 seasons. Howe had 16 top 5 finishes in his 25 seasons with Detroit.

If McDavid wins just one more Hart and places top 5 four additional times across his hopefully remaining 11 seasons, are we really going to sit here and think that 4 wins and 13 top 5 placements in 20 seasons in a 30-32 team league is that different than 6 wins and 16 top 5 placements in 25 seasons in a league that had just 6 teams for 21 of them?

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I do have a suspicion that McDavid might only win one more Hart in his career, with two being a faint possibility. He’s been voted top 5 eight years in a row, has been a finalist 6 times, and has won 3. If he already hasn’t been, he’s soon to be battling voter fatigue and of course his own high standards.

Yet I also think 4, 5, whatever it ends up being Harts in a 30-32 team league is at least as impressive as Howe collecting 6 in a 6 team league 65-75 years ago. I’m sorry, I just do.

I don't, and don't understand this sentiment. The 6 team league is in no way watered down, if you are the best player in the league then you are the best player in the league. I do think this league McDavid is in with the expansion era and 32 teams is a bit watered down, and his conference is a shining example.

As mentioned, McDavid currently has 8 consecutive top 5 finishes through 9 seasons. Howe had 16 top 5 finishes in his 25 seasons with Detroit.

If McDavid wins just one more Hart and places top 5 four additional times across his hopefully remaining 11 seasons, are we really going to sit here and think that 4 wins and 13 top 5 placements in 20 seasons in a 30-32 team league is that different than 6 wins and 16 top 5 placements in 25 seasons in a league that had just 6 teams for 21 of them?

I mean 6 > 3. If he wins just one more, 6 > 4. If he wins two more, than we can talk, because now they are somewhat comparable. I do find it funny that you would be bringing up 'top 5 placements' as a relevant stat while discounting similar stats to show Crosby's dominance in years he didn't win a trophy.

Also, Howe was a flat out dominant goal scorer. He led the league in points and goals 5 times, and did a full sweep of points, goals, and assists 3 times. McDavid has only swept 1 time, and that was the only other time he even led in goals.

 

[PainForShane]

Lidstrom isn’t in the discussion. Ovechkin lost his powers after age 24. He has 1 Art Ross. Jagr may have five Art Rosses, but he only has one Hart (to his credit he has five additional finalist nods, including four runner ups). He doesn’t have a signature playoff run. Both wingers have less Pearsons/Lindsays. He has 1921 points and I’m pretty sure McDavid will break 2000 in fewer games than 1733 games and being 45 years of age.

McDavid has done as much, if not more, than most of the #5 candidates and it’s taken him only 9 seasons. In fact, since Orr’s retirement, Gretzky is the only one who has racked up more individual hardware through 9 seasons than McDavid.

Huh?

Ovechkin didn't "lose his powers at age 24" as you claimed above, he led the league in goals 7 times in 8 years starting from his age 27 season and he scored 50 goals at age 36. He's also a goal scorer (which is not necessarily the same as thing as putting up points), so even if you're being lazy and using the trophy argument yet again, the Art Ross isn't the relevant trophy to use, the Rocket is, he's won that trophy 9 times.

Saying nonsense like this make me wonder whether you actually understand anything you're saying. Also there you go again bringing Gretzky into the conversation even though it seemed like you got pretty upset when someone else (correctly) mentioned how ludicrous the comparison was.

***

Just as importantly it seems like you've been 'arguing that once their careers are over, McDavid will be judged to have a better career than Crosby' by saying things like you think that in 11 months he'll have another Conn Smythe and a Stanley Cup ring. Maybe he will, maybe he won't, we'll find out in a year.

Either way the thread topic is whether McDavid is a tier above Crosby right now. Repeatedly mentioning where you think McDavid's career will eventually end up isn't relevant to the thread topic whatsoever.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

I don't think either of those guys bought up stats at all, why make a statistical case lol? Some people may just prefer a player based on watching them play.

After all, McDavid had zero points when this dropped

View attachment 896486

They were obviously comparing them as prospects when that cover dropped. Being a better prospect doesn’t always mean being a better NHL player.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Huh?

Ovechkin didn't "lose his powers at age 24" as you claimed above, he led the league in goals 7 times in 8 years starting from his age 27 season and he scored 50 goals at age 36. He's also a goal scorer (which is not necessarily the same as thing as putting up points), so even if you're being lazy and using the trophy argument yet again, the Art Ross isn't the relevant trophy to use, the Rocket is, he's won that trophy 9 times.

Saying nonsense like this make me wonder whether you actually understand anything you're saying. Also there you go again bringing Gretzky into the conversation even though it seemed like you got pretty upset when someone else (correctly) mentioned how ludicrous the comparison was.

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Just as importantly it seems like you've been 'arguing that once their careers are over, McDavid will be judged to have a better career than Crosby' by saying things like you think that in 11 months he'll have another Conn Smythe and a Stanley Cup ring. Maybe he will, maybe he won't, we'll find out in a year.

Either way the thread topic is whether McDavid is a tier above Crosby right now. Repeatedly mentioning where you think McDavid's career will eventually end up isn't relevant to the thread topic whatsoever.

This has been the biggest issue throughout the thread for a couple of posters. They can’t seem to understand that the comparison between the 2 players is after their 9th season, not after their career is over. Crosby’s level of play dropped significantly in his 10th season. Maybe this is why they are projecting the comparison to not be close in the near future, which is irrelevant for this discussion. Their career arc comparison is as close as you can get, so far. Realistically, the only thing separating them in their regular season resumes is the 120 more games McDavid has been able to play at the peak of his powers, due to freak injuries suffered by Crosby/incompetence of the Pens medical team at the time.

 

[PainForShane]

This has been the biggest issue throughout the thread for a couple of posters. They can’t seem to understand that the comparison between the 2 players is after their 9th season, not after their career is over. Crosby’s level of play dropped significantly in his 10th season. Maybe this is why they are projecting the comparison to not be close in the near future, which is irrelevant for this discussion. Their career arc comparison is as close as you can get, so far. Realistically, the only thing separating them in their regular season resumes is the 120 more games McDavid has been able to play at the peak of his powers, due to freak injuries suffered by Crosby/incompetence of the Pens medical team at the time.

Well, also a Stanley Cup separates them. And I find it extremely dishonest for that one poster to keep lazily defaulting to 'McDavid has a larger trophy cabinet' while ignoring the fact that the Stanley Cup also is in fact a trophy.

On a different note, I wouldn't blame the Pens medical staff for Sid's missed games -- they were concussion related, and at the time we didn't really know a lot about concussions in general. From my point of view as a fan of hockey, I think we're very fortunate to have Sid fully get over his concussion issues to play a long, mostly healthy career -- if he'd had those same injuries a generation before maybe we have another Lindros / Kariya situation, thankfully that never happened.

But yeah, 100% agree with your overall take -- to me it becomes more and more apparent they're the same tier when you compare McDavid / Sid's dominance over their (at the time) peers AND absolute point totals AND remember that McD spent quite a few minutes playing alongside Leon at ES AND offense has gone up across the board.

Always hard to compare across eras but like you said (and in my opinion) there really isn't a lot (if anything) to separate these guys. Both absolutely amazing players, locks to get in for the HoF on the first ballot. Thanks for visiting the thread, your posts have been really good quality.