Is Connor Mcdavid a "tier above" Sidney Crosby as a player?

[Midnight Judges]

The Penguins played an extreme defense-first style that playoffs..

No they didn't. Their shots against increased over the 2016 playoffs and their defensive and offensive stats were nearly identical.

Sidney Crosby has never really played in a heavily defense focused system - not like Dale Hunter or Barry Trotz of Torts or anything like that.

Sid until Connor gets a Cup or three.

Claude Provost >>> Sidney Crosby

 

[Samsquanch]

Im not even a Crosby fan really because hes pounded my team multiple times in the playoffs.

But the amount of disrespect this guy gets on here is mind-blowing. He was the friggin hands down best player of his generation. A generation that has another player that might break the NHL goal scoring record - but yet no sane hockey mind would take Ovy over Crosby if they were building a winner.

He did it all and then some. There is no debating his greatness. He was hyped to be the next great one, and yet he still exceed expectations somehow.

McDavid has certainly shown that hes got the talent level to finish with a similar career to Sids. Maybe even greater. But hockey is a team sport, and until he wins championships, I just think its crazy to say hes already in tier above Crosby. Thats just insanity to me.

 

[GreatGonzo]

No one thought that about Bourque though, since he obviously led a much weaker team around him to more success than you'd expect, even without a cup. The Oilers have had a good enough team around him to win a cup the last few years. Yet when he gets outplayed by Eichel or does little against Florida outside of one game, everyone just belittles his teammates, while somehow not acknowledging that McDavid is playing with his team's best players at almost all times.

First of all, they definitely haven’t. Second, how did Eichel out play McDavid?

Also, “one game.”
Game 2: 1 assist
Game 3: 2 assists
Game 4: 1 goal, 3 assists
Game 5: 2 goals, 2 assists

When you make completely false statements….do you actually think people will just believe you? Do you actually just blindly believe whatever you think? Genuinely curious.

 

[daver]

At

Im not even a Crosby fan really because hes pounded my team multiple times in the playoffs.

But the amount of disrespect this guy gets on here is mind-blowing. He was the friggin hands down best player of his generation. A generation that has another player that might break the NHL goal scoring record - but yet no sane hockey mind would take Ovy over Crosby if they were building a winner.

He did it all and then some. There is no debating his greatness. He was hyped to be the next great one, and yet he still exceed expectations somehow.

McDavid has certainly shown that hes got the talent level to finish with a similar career to Sids. Maybe even greater. But hockey is a team sport, and until he wins championships, I just think its crazy to say hes already in tier above Crosby. Thats just insanity to me.

When the margins between two players are really thin, which any objective observer would say about the offensive ceilings of the two players, it then becomes all about winning.

Crosby has won in all kinds of ways in his career including putting up era best offensive numbers in individual series and in one of his Cup runs, strong 2-way, puck possession and clutch scoring.

You can play the "if he played on the Pens" game all day. I'll go next:

Put 2024 McDavid on the 2009 Pens and they don't get past the 2nd round. You cannot replace 8 goals and 13 points with McDavid's 1 goal and 4th in team points showing against the Canucks.

And the Canucks goaltending was not better than the Caps goaltending in 2009.

 

[Soundwave]

Washington's goaltending was bad in that series? Sorry, wtf are you talking about dude? Varlamov was bad in game 7 but was really good the rest of the time...

Varlamov was .898 in that series and was ass in game 7 getting pulled after allowing 4 goals on 18 shots, when the series was on the line (game 7), MAF was the better goalie.

 

[daver]

Varlamov was .898 in that series and was ass in game 7 getting pulled after allowing 4 goals on 18 shots, when the series was on the line (game 7), MAF was the better goalie.

Sv% by games:

GAME 1 - Varly - .944, Fleury .885

GAME 2 - Varly - .917, Fleury .879

GAME 3- Varly - .929, Fleury .913

GAME 4 - Varly - .821, Fleury .864

GAME 5 - Varly - 905, Fleury .905

GAME 6 - Varly - .905, Fleury .792


This series only made it to a Game 7 due to Fleury being significantly outplayed by Varlamov

 

[OtherThingsILike]

2013-2014 you say? You mean the season where Crosby had all-time low competition for the scoring race? Getzlaf, Giroux, Seguin, Perry, Hall, Kessel….give me a break.

It's odd that you call this list of players 'all-time low' when they're vastly superior players than the competition that McDavid has today.

 

[Frank Drebin]

It's odd that you call this list of players 'all-time low' when they're vastly superior players than the competition that McDavid has today.

Because you say it is

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Im not even a Crosby fan really because hes pounded my team multiple times in the playoffs.

But the amount of disrespect this guy gets on here is mind-blowing. He was the friggin hands down best player of his generation. A generation that has another player that might break the NHL goal scoring record - but yet no sane hockey mind would take Ovy over Crosby if they were building a winner.

He did it all and then some. There is no debating his greatness. He was hyped to be the next great one, and yet he still exceed expectations somehow.

McDavid has certainly shown that hes got the talent level to finish with a similar career to Sids. Maybe even greater. But hockey is a team sport, and until he wins championships, I just think its crazy to say hes already in tier above Crosby. Thats just insanity to me.

Nobody is disrespectful towards Crosby , he's just going up against a better hockey player , its not very hard to grasp , the data and eye test back it up , If Draisaitl scores a unassisted hat trick in game 7 and won the game and cup himself that would have made McDavid a better hockey player right?

 

[Midnight Judges]

...yet no sane hockey mind would take Ovy over Crosby if they were building a winner.

Of course they could. Similar points in their careers but Ovie blows Sid's doors off in goal scoring with ~ 45% more career goals or whatever it is (850 to 590). In terms of total career value it's not even all that close unless you think secondary assists are just as good as goals - which is kind of ridiculous.

Ovie was also the better player at their peaks which is why Ovie has 3 seasons that are all better than Crosby's best season (and 3 Harts to Sid's 2).

If you had told Crosby fans in 2005 it was going to shake out that way they would have been deeply offended.

 

[Midnight Judges]

When the margins between two players are really thin, which any objective observer would say about the offensive ceilings of the two players...

That's false.

McDavid has a 153 point / 64 goal season.

Crosby has a 109 point / 51 goal season.

It's not close.

Sure, an adjustment is necessary due to scoring environment that doesn't get your boy anywhere near McDavid.

 

[Duffy13]

I find it difficult to rate things like this, McDavid's explosive speed gives him an advantage over Crosby. However when the games on the line you want them both out there for their respective teams.

Yes Crosby has won more, however the teams were constructed much better in Pittsburgh. Ownership went out of their way to give Crosby and Malkin the leadership and experience needed with guys like Gonchar, Sykora, Guerin, Roberts, Lemieux... so he was definitely put in a position to succeed from the start.

Even Toews and Kane had help with guys like Lapointe, Campbell, Hossa, Madden.

Guys that had won or knew what it takes to get to the finals


McDavid and Drai had to drag this team to where it is by themselves, ownership and management have done an awful job (this offseason looks good however) in helping them develop as Players, and Leaders. The only player Management brought in that significantly contributed to a cup win or run was Lucic.

anyways... long winded way to say I think they are the same tier.

Edit: which isn't even an option for the poll...... "sighs"

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

It was just a weak season for the top scorers - most of whom were injured.

Alright I will humor you. Who was injured that would have challenged Crosby that year?

 

[Romang67]

No one thought that about Bourque though, since he obviously led a much weaker team around him to more success than you'd expect, even without a cup. The Oilers have had a good enough team around him to win a cup the last few years. Yet when he gets outplayed by Eichel or does little against Florida outside of one game, everyone just belittles his teammates, while somehow not acknowledging that McDavid is playing with his team's best players at almost all times.

What in the world are you talking about?

These are some wild assertions in this post. Was it the goaltending tandem of Skinner and Campbell that convinced you the Oilers were among the cup favorites outside McDavid? Their D-core? That their 3rd best forward this past year was a 40-50 point player with the Leafs for years before teaming up with McDavid?

When you say "does little against Florida outside of one game", was that the 2 points in game 3, 4 points in game 4, or 4 points in game 5 that cleared the bar for doing more than little for you?

"Playing with his team's best players at almost all times"

You mean Hyman? Because I'm going to let you tell me how many minutes McDavid shared the ice with Draitsaitl 5v5 these playoffs, and how many minutes he played without Draisaitl.

If you think that a player is a bad leader if his team doesn't win the Stanley Cup, I think that is a ridiculous, extremely reductive, and ignorant take, but it's an opinion you're of course allowed to have. But at least own it. Don't flip-flop on it depending in whether you like the player or not.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Alright I will humor you. Who was injured that would have challenged Crosby that year?

Kane and Malkin for starters - both of whom outscored Crosby's 2014 season within a span of 2 years (Malkin in 2012 and Kane in 2016).

Then there's Stamkos who at age 23 could have been poised to have a career year were it not for a serious injury.

Anyway, the point is, relying on 1 year's worth of data is not necessary. It's volatile. You are free to compare surrounding seasons to add context.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

That's false.

McDavid has a 153 point / 64 goal season.

Crosby has a 109 point / 51 goal season.

It's not close.

Sure, an adjustment is necessary due to scoring environment that doesn't get your boy anywhere near McDavid.

Scoring has gone up a lot. Anybody who posts raw numbers is being intellectually dishonest.

Crosby led the league in PPG in 5 of his seasons. He lost out to the likes of ovechkin, malkin, and arguably Kane at the end of his prime.

McDavid has led the league in PPG in 5 of his seasons. He lost out to the likes of Kucherov and Draisaitl in his prime.

Crosby lapped the field some years, in 2010-2011 a 1.61 PPG when the 2nd place had 1.27, 2011-12 he had 1.45 when 2nd place had 1.21, and in 2012-13 he had 1.56 when 2nd place had 1.25.

Crosby was dominant offensively. Scoring has gone up.

 

[67 others]

Crosby just tied a Gretzky record this past season, and has the chance to break it next season.

Yes it is.

The top-end competition (that McDavid actually faces) is significantly weaker now than it was back in 2014-15.

Crosby's competition was by far superior to what McDavid is seeing now. The top-end competition in the league is weaker now than it's been since at least the 1980s, and possibly even since the Original Six era.

Furthermore, while there are still good high-end players, most of them are in the Eastern Conference. Not only does McDavid have it much easier than Crosby did during Crosby's prime, McDavid has it much easier than Crosby does even today.

So Kucherov, Mackinnon, Rantanen, Matthews, Panarin, Nylander and Pasternak, Miller are "the weakest competition since the 06? LOL

This take better be hyperbole.

And you mention 2014-15 like the top scorers were elite?
Tavares, Ovechkin/Backstrom were great. Benn and Seguin flamed out pretty quick. Voracek, Hudler, Tarasenko were top 10 scorers.

But I'd take the 2024 scoring class.

Also, a lot of late 90s early 2000's weren't the toughest fields

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Kane and Malkin for starters - both of whom outscored Crosby's 2014 season within a span of 2 years (Malkin in 2012 and Kane in 2016).

Then there's Stamkos who at age 23 could have been poised to have a career year were it not for a serious injury.

Anyway, the point is, relying on 1 year's worth of data is not necessary. It's volatile. You are free to compare surrounding seasons to add context.

Kane didn't post his first 100 points season until 2 seasons after. He broke out a little late. Kane had no chance of beating Crosby. Malkin played 60 games that year and didn't look good. Crosby also led the league in PPG that year, by a good margin.

Just admit you don't like Crosby at this point, if you are just going to blatantly lie about things.

 

[Killswitch]

So Kucherov, Mackinnon, Rantanen, Matthews, Panarin, Nylander and Pasternak, Miller are "the weakest competition since the 06? LOL

This take better be hyperbole.

And you mention 2014-15 like the top scorers were elite?
Tavares, Ovechkin/Backstrom were great. Benn and Seguin flamed out pretty quick. Voracek, Hudler, Tarasenko were top 10 scorers.

But I'd take the 2024 scoring class.

Also, a lot of late 90s early 2000's weren't the toughest fields

90's is one of the toughest eras ever and the talent was insane. He's wrong about today also. High end talent is everywhere. None of this is as bad as the 70's mind you.

I'll take McDavid by a hair right now but I feel like he ends this comparison in the next couple years outright

 

[DitchMarner]

It's odd that you call this list of players 'all-time low' when they're vastly superior players than the competition that McDavid has today.

Haha... there is no way that Getzlaf, Giroux, Seguin, Perry, Hall, Kessel are better than MacKinnon, Kucherov, Matthews, Rantanen, Draisaitl, Pastrnak. I've always liked Perry, Hall and Phil as players... but no.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

90's is one of the toughest eras ever and the talent was insane. He's wrong about today also. High end talent is everywhere. None of this is as bad as the 70's mind you.

I'll take McDavid by a hair right now but I feel like he ends this comparison in the next couple years outright

Just curious if you are saying that you think McDavid is the better player, and in a few years it will be unanimous, or in a few years you think he will be considered an entire 'tier' above Crosby?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Scoring has gone up a lot. Anybody who posts raw numbers is being intellectually dishonest.

I acknowledged the environmental change in my post. That's not dishonest.

By all means, let's post the adjustment (why didn't you?):

Crosby's 2010 season adjusts to 117 points and 56 goals

McDavid's 2023 season adjusts to 146 points and 62 goals

It's not close.

But you knew that and still refused to post the data - because your post is intellectually dishonest. You desired to mislead people into thinking these two seasons are comparable.

 

[GreatGonzo]

At


When the margins between two players are really thin, which any objective observer would say about the offensive ceilings of the two players, it then becomes all about winning.

Crosby has won in all kinds of ways in his career including putting up era best offensive numbers in individual series and in one of his Cup runs, strong 2-way, puck possession and clutch scoring.

You can play the "if he played on the Pens" game all day. I'll go next:

Put 2024 McDavid on the 2009 Pens and they don't get past the 2nd round. You cannot replace 8 goals and 13 points with McDavid's 1 goal and 4th in team points showing against the Canucks.

And the Canucks goaltending was not better than the Caps goaltending in 2009.

I stopped reading after “strong 2-way play.” Keeep pumping those tires, Daver..

It's odd that you call this list of players 'all-time low' when they're vastly superior players than the competition that McDavid has today.

Vastly superior??

In what way are any of those players better than Kucherov, Mackinnon, or even Matthews and Pastrnak?

Jamie Benn won a scoring title during Crosbys prime….thats how “tough” competition was.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Scoring has gone up a lot. Anybody who posts raw numbers is being intellectually dishonest.

Crosby led the league in PPG in 5 of his seasons. He lost out to the likes of ovechkin, malkin, and arguably Kane at the end of his prime.

McDavid has led the league in PPG in 5 of his seasons. He lost out to the likes of Kucherov and Draisaitl in his prime.

Crosby lapped the field some years, in 2010-2011 a 1.61 PPG when the 2nd place had 1.27, 2011-12 he had 1.45 when 2nd place had 1.21, and in 2012-13 he had 1.56 when 2nd place had 1.25.

Crosby was dominant offensively. Scoring has gone up.

Counting half and quarter seasons as leading the league in PPG is intellectually dishonest.

McDavid led the NHL in PPG for full seasons. It's not the same thing.

Of course, looking at PPG in hindsight is completely unnecessary anyway. McDavid led the NHL in points 5 times. Crosby 2 times. 5 to 2. <----That is the real life record that you are attempting to obfuscate for your boy.

 

[Killswitch]

Just curious if you are saying that you think McDavid is the better player, and in a few years it will be unanimous, or in a few years you think he will be considered an entire 'tier' above Crosby?

A full tier above Crosby is Lemieux. He'd have to do some crazy stuff for me to feel comfortable putting him there. Flip side is I think he can do some crazy stuff to actually put himself there. As of right now I feel he's better than Crosby barely and he'll be considered better in time