Indifference vs Incompetence

[Azail]

Team full of young star players eh? What to do?

I know. Get a rookie President assign a rookie gm who assigns a rookie coach. Then significantly overpay those young stars in relation to direct comparables.

Brilliant.

Definitely incompetence. But I’m not sure if “indifference” is strong enough a word. The assigning of those rookies added together with the unprecedented dramatic overpayments is borderline sabotage.

I know I’ll be called out for hyperbole, but I think there should be some form of investigation into how this got messed up so badly. It truly seems almost intentional.

It's true. We could have just let them sit or walk via offer sheet. 4 first rounders for Matthews would have been good.

 

[keonsbitterness]

If it was indifference, ownership would not have greenlit a total rebuild.

If it was incompetence, the Leafs would be a bottom 10 team most years.

So it's neither.

 

[Tak7]

Going back way before Dubas even got here - there's not a management group that has come, failed, and left Toronto that can complain about not being supported by MLSE. I don't have any doubt that the people at MLSE want to win. They've given management everything they've wanted:

Want to front load contracts? Do it.
Hand out NTC's like they're candy? Sure.
Hire a new coach & make him the most expensive in the league? Yes.
Fire him and continue paying him? Alrighty.
Bury money on Robidas Island and make it disappear? Yep.
Hand out 1-way contracts for guys on the Marlies? Totally.
Treat draft & prospect capital like it doesn't matter? Done.
Spend to the cap? Where do we sign.
Have the best facilities in the league? It's yours.
High end skills development tools for players? Okay.
Quality sports scientists, psychologists, and nutritionists? Absolutely.

MLSE spends as much as they can, in every department that they can, to help the team win. This isn't the case of them not WANTING to win, but not KNOWING how to win. However, even with regards to not KNOWING, you can at least respect the process that they've tried to implement - they are aware that they don't know how, so they go out and bring in guys that do; Leiweke and Burke, for example, and back them completely.

When that doesn't work, they take a step back, and give Shanahan the keys to the entire organization & don't interfere at all. That hasn't, up to this point, worked either.

It's incompetence. Sure MLSE owns some of that, but it falls moreso to the people underneath them who consistently fail when given every opportunity, flexibility, and dollar that they'd ever require to put together a winner.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Indifferent....the city and owners and management are fans, worship players, love to know them, live yo hear they love Toronto etc.
Imlach, knew how to win. Not in love with players. Remember trading Duff, Nevin, Brown, Seizing for Bathgate and McKenny and A STANLEY CUP. Players that were loved he let go.
Next year traded Bathgate and the over loved Billy Harris to Detroit,
Point is, hockey team building. No one in Leaf management today would trade Reilly, or Nylander to built the team.
Dubas thinks he has the team and only needs to tweak....he is wrong.

 

[Aashir]

My answer is a bit weird

The last two years I’m gonna say neither, dubas isn’t the reason we haven’t won. The team and it’s players have been good enough to win. I’m not gonna beat the dead drum, but it’s been the core 4’s fault. His additions have been solid for the most part, and the team has looked poised going into the post season to make a run

Previous to that, I believe incompetence. He wasn’t able to address the needs at the time. I get he had some issues to work with, like Zaitsev and marleau and stuff, but he misused assets like kapanen and johnsson and even brown to an extent, and I think that falls on him. I get those guys, specifically the first two suck now, but if we dealt them at proper timings, we could’ve gotten much more for them. He also wasn’t able to address the top 4 issue until just two years ago

I’m still waiting for some of his drafted players to make the roster, we have maybe 2 guys who are guys drafted after 2016 on this team, yes I understand Hunter was apart of a couple drafts, but even from the last 3 years, we have no prospect in the nhl, I know it’s early but for how “good” of a drafter he is, some of these guys should be panning out a bit quicker

 

[ACC1224]

Indifferent....the city and owners and management are fans, worship players, love to know them, live yo hear they love Toronto etc.
Imlach, knew how to win. Not in love with players. Remember trading Duff, Nevin, Brown, Seizing for Bathgate and McKenny and A STANLEY CUP. Players that were loved he let go.
Next year traded Bathgate and the over loved Billy Harris to Detroit,
Point is, hockey team building. No one in Leaf management today would trade Reilly, or Nylander to built the team.
Dubas thinks he has the team and only needs to tweak....he is wrong.

You’re describing incompetence.

 

[WTFMAN99]

Over the years I've seen many people believe that because of the Teams financial success, winning is secondary.
That a fan revolt would force the Owners to pressure Management to win. I'm curious how widespread that thought is?

Do you believe they are indifferent to winning and if people stopped showing up it would force them to try and win?

Or

Do you believe they do what they can to win, they just aren't very good at it?

A combination of both?

I said both...the pressure isn't there for them as much. Another franchise would have fired Keefe/Dubas for the playoff failure. Raptors need to be great because they're the lone Canadian team. Blue Jays are a little incompetent but pressure is there.

Incompetence well...you've been around longer than me lol.

 

[thewave]

Over the years I've seen many people believe that because of the Teams financial success, winning is secondary.
That a fan revolt would force the Owners to pressure Management to win. I'm curious how widespread that thought is?

Do you believe they are indifferent to winning and if people stopped showing up it would force them to try and win?

Or

Do you believe they do what they can to win, they just aren't very good at it?

A combination of both?

I think it breaks down like this.

-Abundance of wealth and revenue.
-Too little pressure to succeed because there is a financial safety net. Less effective efficiency. **
-The safety net is often utilized to offset mistakes and has turned into an organizational crutch.
-The organization itself due to it's riches is too comfortable creating an excessively relaxed environment.
-The players are pampered and spoiled, well documented. Incompatible with competitive mindset.
-Upper management and ownership is now willing to use the brand to push ideologies instead of focus

**It is well documented that people perform best when they simply have to. When the safety net is off the person(s) are forced to elevate there level. This applies to everyone from those making the decisions to on the ice. Safety nets make the haphazard decision you probably shouldn't make too tempting.


Solution.

Run a lean organization like Ottawa employing only the best of the best. Throw away the excessive comforts and get back to the business of Toronto hockey. When the pajamas and hats become more important than the cups, you know you're never going to win. Maybe not Ottawa, probably somewhere between Ottawa and Tampa.

Add: Maybe I am odd but I think Dorion and Boudreau with their love for this team would make a go of it. They actually CARE. Just like Stavros CARED about the Leafs.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

It's true. We could have just let them sit or walk via offer sheet. 4 first rounders for Matthews would have been good.

You know that we can MATCH an offer sheet, right? Why is this not an issue for anybody ever spanning all world history? They sign their stars at market value and there's no fake "offer sheet" made up media bullshit.

A 23 year old rfa just had a 40 goal 100 point season. Not a PEEP about offer sheets. Matthews career high was 69 points when he signed. It's all bullshit.

 

[Menzinger]

I think it breaks down like this.

-Abundance of wealth and revenue.
-Too little pressure to succeed because there is a financial safety net. Less effective efficiency. **
-The safety net is often utilized to offset mistakes and has turned into an organizational crutch.
-The organization itself due to it's riches is too comfortable creating an excessively relaxed environment.
-The players are pampered and spoiled, well documented. Incompatible with competitive mindset.
-Upper management and ownership is now willing to use the brand to push ideologies instead of focus

**It is well documented that people perform best when they simply have to. When the safety net is off the person(s) are forced to elevate there level. This applies to everyone from those making the decisions to on the ice. Safety nets make the haphazard decision you probably shouldn't make too tempting.


Solution.

Run a lean organization like Ottawa employing only the best of the best. Throw away the excessive comforts and get back to the business of Toronto hockey. When the pajamas and hats become more important than the cups, you know you're never going to win. Maybe not Ottawa, probably somewhere between Ottawa and Tampa.

Add: Maybe I am odd but I think Dorion and Boudreau with their love for this team would make a go of it. They actually CARE. Just like Stavros CARED about the Leafs.

Huh? Theyr've had a terrible team for years at this point with zero signs of improvement on the horizon.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

If it was indifference, ownership would not have greenlit a total rebuild.

If it was incompetence, the Leafs would be a bottom 10 team most years.

So it's neither.

Shanahan said "there will be pain" in 2016. The rebuild has a long way to go.

Then that year he iced a team of almost entirely rookie teenagers.

Those rookie teenagers snuck into the playoffs on the last game of the season in 2017.

And at that precise moment, "there will be pain" turned into "we'll do ANYTHING WE CAN to make the playoffs next year". Then an albatross was given to Marleau. All downhill from there.

The worst thing to happen to the leafs since 1968 was winning that last game of the year in 2017. It RUINED something that looked so promising. And we watch it in round 1 year after year after year.

 

[thewave]

Huh? Theyr've had a terrible team for years at this point with zero signs of improvement on the horizon.

They have a terrible owner and a great GM. They turn over all of their talent. Constantly have top end tenders coming in and going out etc. I know we all can't stand Ottawa because Ottawa but they spoil it for themselves every time the owner says we need to keep costs down.

 

[egd27]

Those rookie teenagers snuck into the playoffs on the last game of the season in 2017.

Actually, they clinched on the 2nd last game. If they had won (or tied) on last game against CBJ, they would have passed the Bruins and got to face the 98 point Sens instead of the 118 point Caps.

But alas they couldn't win that final game. A harbinger of things to come I guess

 

[Niagara Bill]

You’re describing incompetence.

Maybe a little both. Indifferent to winning because they are measured on $$$$ and fan loyalty. Imlach was measured on results on the ice. When he failed, he was gone. He was right man at the right time.
But I could live with your idea of incompetence, (incompetence was the trading of Lanny McDonald.)
Good question though, thanks

 

[Ashdown2]

acc ur thread topics are dumb ....

 

[wingman75]

Where's the neither option?

I'm on this team.

Did people forget what we had just 7 years ago? No, it hasn't worked out (yet) as far as playoffs go, but we have had good teams for 4 seasons in a row now.

There is no indifference and has not been since Bell/Rogers bought the team, teachers pension fund on the other hand was a travesty. Incompetence is what you get with Arizona... this is far from it imo. We're always going to question some roster decisions, but this is a good team that has not found a way to get it done.

 

[AllDay28]

why are we complaining again?

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Honestly I never thought back in the day that the moving Fuhr for Andreychuk, Leeman for Gilmour, etc. would get TOR our of their funk.

Perhaps catching lightning in a bottle eventually comes...with a lot of waiting.

 

[nsleaf]

Not too many voters actually know what incompetent actually means.

 

[LeafGrief]

Threads like this are hilarious. It's like some of you guys think that we're owed success and that we can't find it must be either a grand conspiracy or an unforgivable failure. It's also the desperate search for a scapegoat mixed with a fervent need to have some personal control over the situation. Unfortunately, scapegoating is a logical fallacy and there will never be anything that fans can do for a team as popular as the Leafs.

The Leafs have been extremely successful in the regular season throughout the Matthews era, consistently icing competitive teams and setting franchise records for points. So when people start writing about how management is incompetent, it's hard for me to take them seriously. It boils down to anger at the lack of playoff success and that's a real puzzler, but the fact that we're in 5th place in the league right now disqualifies incompetence as an adjective right out the gate.

The only players left on the team from our 2019 series against Boston are Matthews, Marner, Rielly, Nylander, and Tavares. This team has been completely reworked time and time again, partially due to the search for the right supporting cast and partially due to the fact that those five take up the majority of our cap space. This team's fortunes have always hinged on the big4's ability to get it done in the playoffs and they never have, but fans are so unwilling to blame the star players that they look at Justin Holl as if he's the problem that's killing the team. I don't even think it's the star players fault per say, it's a team composition issue, but to see people blaming Dubas for spending all the cap on those guys and then going to the next thread where we talk about how to extend this group, I can't help but laugh.

I don't blame MLSE for being hands off as ownership. In fact, it's a big plus because meddling owners is a quick-trip to a shitshow. I don't blame Dubas for betting on the big4 either, because I liked that bet and I know that the vast majority of the fanbase is STILL attached to it. I do blame Dubas for continuing the big4 experiment, but I sure as hell don't agree that it's a choice rooted in incompetence or negligence. I understand that threads like this will continue until the heat death of the universe, it's just what hockey fans do, but at the end of it all it's just a big whine about how we can't have our cake and eat it too.

I vote neither.

 

[ACC1224]

Not too many voters actually know what incompetent actually means.

yeah, probably not the right word but it worked well with 'Indifference'.
The thought is more do they care but can't get it done or do they not care because they are successful off the ice?

 

[keonsbitterness]

Shanahan said "there will be pain" in 2016. The rebuild has a long way to go.

Then that year he iced a team of almost entirely rookie teenagers.

Those rookie teenagers snuck into the playoffs on the last game of the season in 2017.

And at that precise moment, "there will be pain" turned into "we'll do ANYTHING WE CAN to make the playoffs next year". Then an albatross was given to Marleau. All downhill from there.

The worst thing to happen to the leafs since 1968 was winning that last game of the year in 2017. It RUINED something that looked so promising. And we watch it in round 1 year after year after year.

I can't imagine that any team in NHL history would ever intentionally try to lose a win-and-your-in game, and why would Lou not have offered Marleau the same (really stupid) contract had we just missed the playoffs that year?

 

[egd27]

acc ur thread topics are dumb ....

why are we complaining again?

The intent of thread was pretty well explained in the opening post. Perhaps you two should actually read it and apply some comprehension. It was neither complaining nor a "dumb" topic of discussion.

Unless of course you have actually been deluded into thinking this organization has been successful in the past two decades, in which case, carry on, sorry to have woken you.

 

[barilko05]

Coaches sign contracts now? Dubas hasn't managed to do any better than what Babcock did in AMs rookie year. LOL.

Weird how you left all his actual success out of that. Like cups....gold medals..... You Dubas homers just refuse to eat your crow. It's comical at least. You enjoying the Dubas plan?

Not Babcock! OP said BURKE's plan. I meant would you rather still have Lou in charge? He's ruined the Islanders with bad contracts and having to get rid of quality players for peanuts because of it. I'm not a Dubas fanboy, BTW. I'm just not a blind hater who can't see the forest for the trees. If the team fails this year (and by that I mean another first round exit) I would fully expect him to be out the door. And Keefe with him. But we're not there yet. Its a long season. And also...Dubas isn't ON THE ICE. That's on the players. Regardless of whether he brought them in or not. They are the one's that have to produce. Sadly, they won't be the ones to get shown the door if the season is another bust.

 

[Gabriel426]

I don’t buy that the suits don’t want to win.
Winning means revenue.
Quite frankly the Suits have given all they can to provide the Leafs to win. They are paying a coach 5-6mil to sit at home and do nothing. Pretty sure if McD is available, they will open the cheque book to sign him. It is not like the suits are nickel and diming the team in spending.
Now did they choose the right person for the job to run the team is another story.