Indifference vs Incompetence

[Cams]

Unfortunately fans will never stop showing up. I live in Windsor and I just paid $1300 for two tickets to go see the Leafs play the Wings even though I’m loosing more and more faith in this management group and team.

I keep telling myself if Matthews walks after his contract, that’s when I’ll be done being a Maple Leaf fan.

Got little Caesar’s arena 25 minutes away from me and way cheaper tickets, not terrible I guess lol.

Is that the game in Detroit on Monday? The tunnel bus starts running again the next day too.

Even when the Leafs are in town the tickets in Detroit are crazy...otherwise you can get super cheap tickets for games that aren't against TOR or MTL.

I'd never jump ship...I lived through the Ballard years as a Leafs fan (in Windsor not that that matters much). They sure are in a better place now than when Ballard was running things, or the teachers pension fund years. But it really is frustrating not getting beyond round 1.

 

[ACC1224]

Would fans not going to the games or buying merchandise make a difference?

 

[GoonieFace]

Would fans not going to the games or buying merchandise make a difference?

En masse yes, but that will never happen. Too many diehards that can never find fault with this team, as evident by some of the posters here

 

[Mickey Marner]

Why do you feel Ownership is indifferent?

I’m sure there are some who would trade profits for championships, but overall I think their primary concern is the success of their brand, not the quality of their brand. The most popular brand in any industry is rarely the highest quality brand in that industry, they just have the greatest share of the market. McDonalds doesn’t have the best food, Walmart doesn’t have the best merchandise, Nike doesn’t have the best clothing etc.

 

[ACC1224]

I’m sure there are some who would trade profits for championships, but overall I think their primary concern is the success of their brand, not the quality of their brand. The most popular brand in any industry is rarely the highest quality brand in that industry, they just have the greatest share of the market. McDonalds doesn’t have the best food, Walmart doesn’t have the best merchandise, Nike doesn’t have the best clothing etc.

Wouldn't winning create the greatest success for the brand?
I imagine the Raptors winning gave a significant boost to their brand.

 

[TMLAM34]

Is that the game in Detroit on Monday? The tunnel bus starts running again the next day too.

Even when the Leafs are in town the tickets in Detroit are crazy...otherwise you can get super cheap tickets for games that aren't against TOR or MTL.

I'd never jump ship...I lived through the Ballard years as a Leafs fan (in Windsor not that that matters much). They sure are in a better place now than when Ballard was running things, or the teachers pension fund years. But it really is frustrating not getting beyond round 1.

Yes it’s the game this up-coming Monday. I remember one of my buddies got free tickets from his boss a couple years ago when Detroit played Anaheim and we were sitting center ice, 8th row and the ticket prices when I took a look were like $130 a piece lmao.

But I do agree, I don’t think I’d be able to jump ship. But if Matthews just walks from this organization, it would be pretty tempting to.

 

[ACC1224]

En masse yes, but that will never happen. Too many diehards that can never find fault with this team, as evident by some of the posters here

How? I've seen this before but no one every explains how things will change.
Just trying to understand, it makes no sense to me.

 

[Jmo89]

For ownership it's mostly incompetence. However I think there's a little indifference sprinkled in there. For many franchises with the history that the Leafs have the ownership groups demand excellence or at least a certain locker room culture.

The Leafs are always blowing in the wind and ownership doesn't really care about that part IMO.

I think they were much more indifferent prior to Shanahan, which is why I would personally give him another chance after Dubas. He has shown way too much loyalty / stubbornness for Dubas though.

 

[nsleaf]

Not really incompetent, that seems a little harsh, more like ineffective.

 

[GoonieFace]

How? I've seen this before but no one every explains how things will change.
Just trying to understand, it makes no sense to me.

How? I've seen this before but no one every explains how things will change.
Just trying to understand, it makes no sense to me.

I guess it depends on what you mean by making a difference. If it was a revolt specifically against this current management team, than people not going to games or buying merchandise may work. But this would never really happen. They are not purposely icing an ineffective team in the playoffs, which is why incompetence is the only real answer

 

[Mickey Marner]

Wouldn't winning create the greatest success for the brand?
I imagine the Raptors winning gave a significant boost to their brand.

I think the Leafs entered too big to fail territory a long time ago. The Raptors are a much younger franchise. I mean, if Harold Ballard couldn’t alienate the entire fan base despite his best efforts, I don’t know who or what could. Could they make more with a championship, sure, but with significant diminishing returns compared to, for example, Tampa Bay. Why bother stock trading when your GIC out-performs the S&P 500.

 

[barilko05]

They wanted to win. Then sabotaged their own plan that was working to hire a rookie GM. This is incompetance. Been clear for years.

And what plan was that? Having a doddering old fool remain in charge? The same guy who has ruined his subsquent team by having no clue how to manage a team in the cap era. THAT PLAN?

 

[yubbers]

And what plan was that? Having a doddering old fool remain in charge? The same guy who has ruined his subsquent team by having no clue how to manage a team in the cap era. THAT PLAN?

Coaches sign contracts now? Dubas hasn't managed to do any better than what Babcock did in AMs rookie year. LOL.

Weird how you left all his actual success out of that. Like cups....gold medals..... You Dubas homers just refuse to eat your crow. It's comical at least. You enjoying the Dubas plan?

 

[mikeyz]

i think the current management group WANT to win. I also think the players want to win. No one is indifferent (although i can't read Shanahan.... i don't even know what the point of him is).

Dubas, as much as he wants it, just hasn't executed a good plan. His vision or whatever you want to call it is flawed. I wouldn't chalk that up to lack of trying.

This is bang on

And what plan was that? Having a doddering old fool remain in charge? The same guy who has ruined his subsquent team by having no clue how to manage a team in the cap era. THAT PLAN?

And Dubas has done that much better??? Lol.

 

[mikeyz]

Is that the game in Detroit on Monday? The tunnel bus starts running again the next day too.

Even when the Leafs are in town the tickets in Detroit are crazy...otherwise you can get super cheap tickets for games that aren't against TOR or MTL.

I'd never jump ship...I lived through the Ballard years as a Leafs fan (in Windsor not that that matters much). They sure are in a better place now than when Ballard was running things, or the teachers pension fund years. But it really is frustrating not getting beyond round 1.

This bolder part alone makes this era no better then the Ballard era. Maybe not in terms of management treatment, but, on ice success, 100%.

 

[Jojalu]

This guy understands things very well

View attachment 611714

Except for it's not true.

I don't doubt for a second that the top six wants to win. I do however question whether or not they have the toolset to accomplish the task.

Getting paid before you win is not a real issue or no one in any other sport would ever win.

Guys walk out of college and make 100's of millions before ever setting foot in the dressing room.

 

[keonsbitterness]

This thread proves we need a new goal song.

 

[ACC1224]

I think the Leafs entered too big to fail territory a long time ago. The Raptors are a much younger franchise. I mean, if Harold Ballard couldn’t alienate the entire fan base despite his best efforts, I don’t know who or what could. Could they make more with a championship, sure, but with significant diminishing returns compared to, for example, Tampa Bay. Why bother stock trading when your GIC out-performs the S&P 500.

IMO, the Leafs as a brand have lost or are losing the younger fans and success is certainly a way to stem that.
Why would returns significantly diminish by winning a championship?

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Indifference I feel would be something like the Pittsburgh Pirates, where ownership has absolutely no interest in winning as long as those revenue-sharing checks keep getting cashed. Same think with the A's, whose owners care less than nothing about the on-field product. This was accurate to some degree with Ballard (if there's fights and no Euros, he was happy as long as the money kept flowing) and to some degree with some other owners in the past, but I don't think it's the right word in this current era (though I haven't watched in years so wtf do I know.)

On the path to indifference, you have some degree of complacency, and I think that is fair to raise when it comes to the Leafs. Incompetence...well, that obviously goes without saying because anyone that has watched the team objectively for years could probably write a book on all the bad decisions they've observed.

 

[francis246]

The problem really comes down to this, we do not have a single owner and when it comes to the Leafs there are too many chefs in the kitchen.

When you don’t have a single owner, the accountability piece goes out the window. A single owner if they don’t see results will demand changes immediately because it’s personal. With group ownership it’s always about the bottom line which is money. Additionally too many people have a say in what they want to see happen.

You might ask, well why did it work for the raptors? The reason it worked is because the Raptors gave full autonomy to Masai. No one interfered in the basketball operations at MLSE. Masai was the president and was very hands on and made the decisions.

It’s not the same when it comes to the leafs. At least it doesn’t appear to be (Shanahan doesn’t appear to be very involved in the shaping of the team). There isn’t a clear identity of the team.

When you look at other Presidents across the NHL who have had success. They allow their GM’s to do their job, but they are very outspoken and have a clear identity with which they want the team to look like.

 

[Dekes For Days]

It's pretty weird to have a poll where the actual answer isn't an option.

 

[GoonieFace]

It's pretty weird to have a poll where the actual answer isn't an option.

And what would the answer be?

 

[Dekes For Days]

And what would the answer be?

Neither.

 

[PromisedLand]

Would fans not going to the games or buying merchandise make a difference?

Yes!

what you are describing is a loss of interest. Loss of interest would lead to loss of revenue not just from tickets/merchandise but also advertising revenue, leafs talk shows TV/Radio (tsn+sportsnet+etc...) etc...

All of this would lead to massive devaluation of the franchise and that would certainly lead to massive changes.

When they announced rebuild -> everyone was excited and came back heck they were even cheering the tank. Then Dubas/Babcock power struggle led to 2 seasons of failure.

Dubas' incompetence is driving this fanbase away from the franchise anyway. And to boot with high inflation causing cost of living to soar folks are already probably cutting their entertainment expenses. Heck I haven't spent even a penny on the Leafs since May 2021. Partly because other expenses have gone up and my income hasn't; and partly because this management group pisses me the heck off and I refuse to spend any money as long as they are here or until Leafs show some progress in the playoffs.

 

[ACC1224]

The problem really comes down to this, we do not have a single owner and when it comes to the Leafs there are too many chefs in the kitchen.

When you don’t have a single owner, the accountability piece goes out the window. A single owner if they don’t see results will demand changes immediately because it’s personal. With group ownership it’s always about the bottom line which is money. Additionally too many people have a say in what they want to see happen.

You might ask, well why did it work for the raptors? The reason it worked is because the Raptors gave full autonomy to Masai. No one interfered in the basketball operations at MLSE. Masai was the president and was very hands on and made the decisions.

It’s not the same when it comes to the leafs. At least it doesn’t appear to be (Shanahan doesn’t appear to be very involved in the shaping of the team). There isn’t a clear identity of the team.

Remember Stavros telling Gretzky to get lost because the building was already full? That's the last single owner and an example of indifference.

You say the Leafs have too many chefs but Shanahan doesn't appear to be involved. Who are all the Chefs then?