If you were GM

[Run the Jewels]

Fair concerns on the 1st. Id be okay trading it if we protect it and Im not necessarily saying frost should be the target. Unfortunately Frost is probably in that middling value where, the team that holds him isn't motivated to sell him for something like a 2nd + Mazur/Lombardi but trading a 1st would be a big leap for an acquiring team. Still, I think the fit is very interesting.

Would you do a top 15 protected 1st for him?

Ya Sharangovich would be a LW for us, which, given some of his goal scoring history could be interesting. If the cost is Rasmussen I might be willing to take the swing. The nice thing is he has shown he can score and it would leave all of our premium capital available for other moves.

Do you think a line of Sharangovich-Larkin-Raymond could work? It's kind of resonating with me but it's obviously not a surefire way to improve our offence.

For me, I'm really not interested in building around the Larkin core at this point. They gave it a shot with Copp, Chiarot, Maatta, Appleton, DeBrincat, Faulk, Gibson, Perron and it didn't work. So with that being the case, I don't want to give up good draft capital for guys on the wrong side of 25. That's just my opinion and understand others will happily commit assets to those sort of players.

With someone like McCann, I am fine given it's just money and cap space and we aren't giving up assets, but I have no idea why someone like him or Alex Tuch would sign with us given how this core has performed? We shouldn't be giving those guys 7 or 8 year deals and that's likely what it would take if they cared about money more than winning.

So no, I don't want to commit any more assets to guys over the age of 25. The core should be built around Mo Seider and the group of players on defense, goaltender and wing who are all under the age of 25. I'd roll with MBN at the 1LW spot, and if Bear makes the roster he may as well get a shot. It's time to move on from the guys in their late 20s who are reclamation projects.

Again, just my opinion.

 

[SirloinUB]

For me, I'm really not interested in building around the Larkin core at this point. They gave it a shot with Copp, Chiarot, Maatta, Appleton, DeBrincat, Faulk, Gibson, Perron and it didn't work. So with that being the case, I don't want to give up good draft capital for guys on the wrong side of 25. That's just my opinion and understand others will happily commit assets to those sort of players.

With someone like McCann, I am fine given it's just money and cap space and we aren't giving up assets, but I have no idea why someone like him or Alex Tuch would sign with us given how this core has performed? We shouldn't be giving those guys 7 or 8 year deals and that's likely what it would take if they cared about money more than winning.

So no, I don't want to commit any more assets to guys over the age of 25. The core should be built around Mo Seider and the group of players on defense, goaltender and wing who are all under the age of 25. I'd roll with MBN at the 1LW spot, and if Bear makes the roster he may as well get a shot. It's time to move on from the guys in their late 20s who are reclamation projects.

Again, just my opinion.

I get that man. And Philosophically, I tend to agree with you. I just don’t think a pivot from the Larkin core can or will happen. The organization has no desire to reboot and even if they did, Larkin’s NTC is a significant barrier. Whether l like it or not, this team is going to try to push forward. From there, I’m left trying to make the best of that direction.

If we aren’t going to reboot, targeting guys that are at the start of their prime and have shown flashes of a breakout is probably the best we can do. This is why a swing on Frost is resonating with me.

This isn’t a perfect comparison because their play styles are different but It’s kind of like acquiring Trocheck 5 years ago. Obviously Frost hasn’t shown a huge offensive ceiling but he has demonstrated a decent offensive floor and hasn’t played with much significant talent.

In theory you could be getting a good 2C for 5-6 years that could even grow while playing with linemates like Debrincat and Kane.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I get that man. And Philosophically, I tend to agree with you. I just don’t think a pivot from the Larkin core can or will happen. The organization has no desire to reboot and even if they did, Larkin’s NTC is a significant barrier. Whether l like it or not, this team is going to try to push forward. From there, I’m left trying to make the best out of a direction I don’t really believe in.

If we aren’t going to reboot, targeting guys that are at the start of their prime and have shown flashes of a breakout is probably the best we can do. This is why a swing on Frost is resonating with me.

This isn’t a perfect comparison because their play styles are different but It’s kind of like acquiring Trocheck 5 years ago. Obviously Frost hasn’t shown a huge offensive ceiling but he has demonstrated a decent offensive floor and hasn’t played with much significant talent.

In theory you could be getting a good 2C for 5-6 years that could even grow while playing with linemates like Debrincat and Kane.

Yeah, I get that we are likely going to continue down the Larkin path, at least for another year or two until we get close to where he loses his trade protection. Yzerman in his press conference talked about having a growth mindset which on the one hand says something about something when we are talking about a professional athlete who is about to turn 30 years old.

Datsyuk's last season where he put up more than 70 points was his age 30 season. I'm just being realistic: there's a really good chance Larkin's production starts to dip considerably. Many don't want to talk about the fact his 5v5 goal scoring fell off late in the season. We aren't magically getting an 80 point center to offset what is likely to be Larkin's decline in counting numbers over the duration of his contract.

We also need to make decisions on guys like Copp, Faulk and Gibson who are all free agents next summer. Are we really going to commit big contracts to these guys at this point in their careers? Do they even want to continue on in Detroit? Then there's DeBrincat's next contract, if that doesn't get done this summer, you really need to start asking some hard questions that apparently no one on this sub-forum wants to think about.

I'm skeptical we should be signing Copp, Faulk, and Gibson to new deals and then shipping out our best draft capital and several prospects to build around a 30 year old Dylan Larkin. That boat has sailed, again IMO.

I get this hurts some people's feelings, but there's really no path IMO where we become competitive over the next 2 seasons. And even in fantasy land where Chris Ilitch elevates Yzerman, does anyone really believe Kris Draper is going to figure this out before Larkin's game has completely deteriorated?

 

[Henkka]

1. Sign UFA Alex Tuch for 10.5M
2. Trade for Pettersson 11.6M full contract
3. Sign UFA Kane for 1-year 6.0M (50% in bonuses) contract
4. Sign RFA Edvinsson for 7.6M
5. Extend DeBrincat for 11.6M for season 2027-28.

Rasmussen 3.2M contract will move out at Pettersson-trade. As well as Nate Danielson + other incentives.

Compher 5.1M contract will be moved out for future considerations.

DeBrincat - Pettersson - Tuch
Finnie/Kasper - Larkin - Raymond
MBN - Finnie/Kasper - Kane
Mazur - Copp - Appleton
---------------------
Shine / other GR guy)


AlbertJ - Seider
Edvinsson - Faulk
Chiarot - AntonJ/Pellikka
-------------
Wallinder - JBD

Gibson
Cossa/Postava

That's a new look. New top line, and quality depth at 2nd line thanks to Larkin and Raymond. Either Finnie or Kasper becomes a Center. MBN becomes the triggerman for Kane. Also defence will be split more even, thanks to internal growth.

 

[lidstromiscool]

1. Sign UFA Alex Tuch for 10.5M
2. Trade for Pettersson 11.6M full contract
3. Sign UFA Kane for 1-year 6.0M (50% in bonuses) contract
4. Sign RFA Edvinsson for 7.6M
5. Extend DeBrincat for 11.6M for season 2027-28.

Rasmussen 3.2M contract will move out at Pettersson-trade. As well as Nate Danielson + other incentives.

Compher 5.1M contract will be moved out for future considerations.

DeBrincat - Pettersson - Tuch
Finnie/Kasper - Larkin - Raymond
MBN - Finnie/Kasper - Kane
Mazur - Copp - Appleton
---------------------
Shine / other GR guy)


AlbertJ - Seider
Edvinsson - Faulk
Chiarot - AntonJ/Pellikka
-------------
Wallinder - JBD

Gibson
Cossa/Postava

That's a new look. New top line, and quality depth at 2nd line thanks to Larkin and Raymond. Either Finnie or Kasper becomes a Center. MBN becomes the triggerman for Kane. Also defence will be split more even, thanks to internal growth.

I'm not sure what the cap looks like, or if those trades would even go through, but thats a roster that at least gives some hope for next season/future

 

[SirloinUB]

1. Sign UFA Alex Tuch for 10.5M
2. Trade for Pettersson 11.6M full contract
3. Sign UFA Kane for 1-year 6.0M (50% in bonuses) contract
4. Sign RFA Edvinsson for 7.6M
5. Extend DeBrincat for 11.6M for season 2027-28.

Rasmussen 3.2M contract will move out at Pettersson-trade. As well as Nate Danielson + other incentives.

Compher 5.1M contract will be moved out for future considerations.

DeBrincat - Pettersson - Tuch
Finnie/Kasper - Larkin - Raymond
MBN - Finnie/Kasper - Kane
Mazur - Copp - Appleton
---------------------
Shine / other GR guy)


AlbertJ - Seider
Edvinsson - Faulk
Chiarot - AntonJ/Pellikka
-------------
Wallinder - JBD

Gibson
Cossa/Postava

That's a new look. New top line, and quality depth at 2nd line thanks to Larkin and Raymond. Either Finnie or Kasper becomes a Center. MBN becomes the triggerman for Kane. Also defence will be split more even, thanks to internal growth.

Overall I like your proposal and it should help this team compete if it were to come to fruition.

My only concerns:

1. Decline of Petterson. It's not just his stats that are in decline. His skating has been on a downward trend since he injured a knee.
2. Likelihood of landing Tuch. Any plan that involves landing the top UFA on a reasonable contract is a dicey one. If had a nickel for every offseason plan I cooked up involving a top UFA that didn't come to Detroit, I could get myself a free lunch

 

[Henkka]

I'm not sure what the cap looks like, or if those trades would even go through, but thats a roster that at least gives some hope for next season/future

It's less than 1m under the cap but anyways under.

 

[91Retired]

If there is insider knowledge on the management side that trading Larkin would not negatively impact DeBrincat's interest in playing here I think shopping Larkin and Gibson this offseason could get huge returns.

Larkin is on a cap friendly contract and would instantly upgrade almost any teams 2C. If Gibson didn't ware out due to lack of a reliable backup this season he would have been competing for Vezina.

I would just have an honest conversation with Larkin and say you can be traded now or traded the instant the
2028-29 season rolls over, your choice.

 

[Run the Jewels]

If there is insider knowledge on the management side that trading Larkin would not negatively impact DeBrincat's interest in playing here I think shopping Larkin and Gibson this offseason could get huge returns.

Larkin is on a cap friendly contract and would instantly upgrade almost any teams 2C. If Gibson didn't ware out due to lack of a reliable backup this season he would have been competing for Vezina.

I would just have an honest conversation with Larkin and say you can be traded now or traded the instant the
2028-29 season rolls over, your choice.

Yeah, if he showed any interest in leading this team it would be one thing, but you really don't get that vibe from Larkin. I didn't pay any attention to the rumors on a move to the Wild, but heard about it as I was catching up with the Winged Wheel podcast. Those guys had no interest in the trade, with the primary reason being we really don't need Wallstedt. I agree with that, but I wonder if we could get a center instead?

Charlie Stramel doesn't currently look like a scoring line center, so that complicates making a trade with Minnesota. If he was trending better that could the type of hockey trade that may work for both sides.

I still like the idea of trading him to Columbus for Cayden Lindstrom, Jackson Smith and a 1st. He gets to play with his buddy Zach Werenski who just won the Norris, the Blue Jackets would have amazing depth at center, and we get two prospects who perfectly fit our window.

Then you trade Copp, Faulk and Gibson prior to the trade deadline.

 

[SirKillalot]

Im not sure how likely Calgary would be to move him but Morgan Frost could be an interesting option. It was a small sample size but he showed a bit of a glow up after Kadri was trade and he was thrust into a bigger role.

Averaged 42 points/season for the last 4 seasons while playing on some mediocre teams without an established role. He also won 56.8% of his faceoffs last season.

It would probably cost a pricey package but I think a move where we send Rasmussen/Appleton to Calgary while bringing back Frost could be solid. Bonus points if we can land Coleman at the same time.

Could be an interesting guy to get. But, given he hasn't put a lot of points on the board, wouldn't want to overpay for him.

I think I would like more to go for a McTavish package if one could also get McQueen or Solberg in the deal.

 

[Heaton]

I would just have an honest conversation with Larkin and say you can be traded now or traded the instant the
2028-29 season rolls over, your choice.

Wouldn't this mean that the team either never improves or is worse by that point? If that's current outlook, why the f*** are we allowing Yzerman to have that conversation?

Secondly, I don't think anyone should expect a "huge return" for John Gibson.

 

[SirloinUB]

Could be an interesting guy to get. But, given he hasn't put a lot of points on the board, wouldn't want to overpay for him.

I think I would like more to go for a McTavish package if one could also get McQueen or Solberg in the deal.

I’d be thrilled to add any of those names.

Not to be a buzzkill but the more I think about it the more I don’t see a trade with the ducks. If I’m verbeek, I’m trying to bundle some of those assets for a big fish rather like Robertson/Thomas instead of a swap or 2-3 lesser pieces,

I bet they are our competition when it comes to seeking out upgrades more so than a viable trade partner.

 

[SirKillalot]

I’d be thrilled to add any of those names.

Not to be a buzzkill but the more I think about it the more I don’t see a trade with the ducks. If I’m verbeek, I’m trying to bundle some of those assets for a big fish rather like Robertson/Thomas instead of a swap or 2-3 lesser pieces,

I bet they are our competition when it comes to seeking out upgrades more so than a viable trade partner.

Yeah I agree with that, they are more likely a competitor in terms of trying to get a bigger fish.
Just Yzerman-Verbeek relation that would make something like this happen.

 

[91Retired]

Wouldn't this mean that the team either never improves or is worse by that point? If that's current outlook, why the f*** are we allowing Yzerman to have that conversation?

Secondly, I don't think anyone should expect a "huge return" for John Gibson.

you only make the trade if it returns guys fixing the problems, duh

 

[Henkka]

Wouldn't this mean that the team either never improves or is worse by that point? If that's current outlook, why the f*** are we allowing Yzerman to have that conversation?

That would be idiotic move. We should add players and not create even bigger center problem for hopefuls.

We trade for Pettersson and Larkin becomes 2nd line center at Detroit. It's that simple

And when you think of it, then everything is slotted right.

 

[Ricelund]

Sounds like Barzal may be available…

 

[Henkka]

Rising up some names. Last 2-year 5-on-5 scoring:

LW Jason Robertson 164 games, 99 points (trade-option, 11th most at NHL)
(comparable) RW Mitchell Marner, 162 games, 99 points (last season best UFA)
C Robert Thomas, 134 games, 89 points (trade-option)

RW Alex Tuch, 161 games, 87 points (best UFA)
(comparable) LW Jake Guentzel, 161 games, 88 points

LW Alex DeBrincat, 164 games, 79 points (Red Wings best)
RW Lucas Raymond, 162 games, 70 points (Wings 2nd best)

LW Anders Lee, 164 games, 69 points (2nd best UFA)
(comparable) LW Carter Verhaege, 159 games, 70 points

LW Mason Marchment, 130 games, 65 points (3rd best UFA)
(comparable) RW Mark Stone, 126 games, 64 points

W Viktor Arvisson, 136 games, 62 points (4th best UFA)
(comparable) W Nikolaj Ehlers, 151 games, 64 points (last season 2nd best UFA)

C Mason McTavish, 151 games, 62 points (trade-option)
(comparable) C Dylan Cozens, 164 games, 61 points

LW Bobby McMann, 152 games, 60 points (5th best UFA)
(comparable) LW Tyler Bertuzzi, 161 games, 59 points

C Dylan Larkin, 156 games, 59 points (Wings 3rd best)
RW Patrick Kane, 137 games, 57 points (Wings 4th best)
W Vasily Podkolzin, 164 games, 57 points (trade-option)

Think we should consider all those names in Red, who would be more productive than Larkin and Kane are at ES.

Add 2 of them and our Top6 instantly becomes better. And after that, better skill will flow to also bottom6, to fix other holes.

 

[Henkka]

Points/60 of all Red names from above:

Tuch 2.40
Arvidsson 2.19
Marchment 2.18
DeBrincat 2.07
Lee 1.91
Raymond 1.87
Kane 1.78
McMann 1.75
Larkin 1.56

And Goals/60 from same guys:

Tuch 1.16
Arvidsson 1.02
DeBrincat 1.02
McMann 0.99
Marchment 0.94
Raymond 0.86
Lee 0.83
Kane 0.62
Larkin 0.57

All would add scoring, significantly. They would replace the scrubs like Compher and Ras, and would play alongside with our 4 best scorers.

JUST.ADD.MORE.BETTER.PLAYERS

 

[91Retired]

Cool list it makes me hopeful there actually are UFA solutions to some of these problems.

It would be nice if we replaced Kane with one of these players, if we resign Kane I hope its an agreed upon reduced role.

 

[Run the Jewels]

It's nice to see Max Bultman echo what I've been saying: we need a franchise forward.

Even with a forward add [via free agency], the Red Wings are likely to be left hoping for major internal improvements next season. But without a franchise forward, the rest may not matter. And for a team with multiple core players in their late 20s or early 30s, and still looking to just make the playoffs, that is a scary situation to be in.

There's one potential answer, and fortunately it presents itself next summer.

 

[91Retired]

I bought in to the rebuild keeping Larkin but man was I wrong. We have good forwards but we lack a center that brings it together. I always gave him space for never having a team behind him, but the March collapse would not happen under a real team leader. And not only that it wasted a first round pick on the bait and switch season. Keeping Larkin has become one of the most costly aspects of the rebuild.

We need to sign some "already baked" UFA's. I get Yzerman's ideas of maybe someone like Mason Appleton just never found the right environment but the guy's career high was 36 points at 29 years old.

I give credit for Gibson paying off huge, but at some point we have to stop relying on hopefulness and reclamation projects and actually get good players. Mason Appleton was an awful signing from the start, not just in and of itself but a testament to a strategy riddled with problems.

 

[Oddbob]

Im not sure how likely Calgary would be to move him but Morgan Frost could be an interesting option. It was a small sample size but he showed a bit of a glow up after Kadri was trade and he was thrust into a bigger role.

Averaged 42 points/season for the last 4 seasons while playing on some mediocre teams without an established role. He also won 56.8% of his faceoffs last season.

It would probably cost a pricey package but I think a move where we send Rasmussen/Appleton to Calgary while bringing back Frost could be solid. Bonus points if we can land Coleman at the same time.

Do we really need more softish players who only get 40ish pts at most? He also averages -12 per 82 gp, so not like he is bringing ok defence to the table. He is 27, he is what he is, which is not someone who improves our team.

 

[Oddbob]

I was thinking it would likely take something like 2027 1st. Maaaybe a sweetener as well. That's just a guess though. Not cheap for a guy who has never put up more than more than 46 points.

But I could also seeing him being successful between Debrincat and Kane and potentially locking in as a medium term 2C for his prime years. I could see him extending with us as playing with that kind of talent on a (in theory anyway) up and coming team could be a great situation for him.


Unrelated but someone on their sub-forum was kicking tires on swapping Sharangovich for Rasmussen. I didn't hate that idea as a low cost flier for a potential LWer.

You are willing to pay a 1st for Morgan Frost? Give your head a shake man!

 

[Oddbob]

Nothing Yzerman has done or said suggests the team is rebuilding the rebuild and Larkin is going nowhere. There would be rumours of such at this point if that was in the realm of what Detroit is doing. Detroit may not leak things, but other teams do. Gibson isn't being traded either.

 

[SirloinUB]

You are willing to pay a 1st for Morgan Frost? Give your head a shake man!

Where did I say that? my post was speculating what Calgary might want and discussing the fit of the player on our team.

Id be uncomfortable paying that price but I do think he is an intriguing target and has been trending up as a player.

We also need some offence added to this team.