If you were GM

[SirKillalot]

JBB had to finish the job in Tampa.

He did and did well. We don't know if Yzerman would have done the same or not, or if JBB even talked to him or not about the moves they made for advice either.

What we do know is after Yzerman left, Tampa's drafting has been abysmal. With two guys in 7 seasons gotten to NHL.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

If you think Tulsky would do or have ability to do any of these trades earlier, you don't seem to understand strategy or how the hockey environment works.

We are sort of getting into the area where Yzerman can do more of these things, I wouldn't say were are there quite yet for it, cause injuries and set backs haven't made enough spots secure yet. Though we have some idea of what is needed. If those who had injuries and set backs get opportunites now and take them and more youngster also come into the lineup and do well, the less moves is needed.

I understand it plenty well. If people don’t think Yzerman would have been fired a few years ago if he wasn’t Steve Yzerman I also don’t know what to say. I was committed to seeing it through but thought we reached more aggressive tweaking two deadlines ago.

Building a team requires a ton of things. We haven’t gotten a ton of luck, but I am done with patience speeches. Figure it out and make the correct decisions or move into the advisory President Jimmy D role and get someone that will. The league doesn’t stop spinning for us to get our perfect timing solution, he needs to make it happen or we need to find someone that can provide a vision that will in the current circumstances. Done with excuses, it is an incredibly difficult job, but that is what those people signed up for.

If we are reloading the rebuild or doing a tank year, this should be his last as GM and somebody outside of the organization should be brought in for the teardown.

 

[SirKillalot]

I understand it plenty well.

Obviously not. Cause you comparing moves by Carolina with Detroit as if its the same step of the process.

Building a team requires a ton of things.

It does need a ton of things.

We haven’t a ton of luck

We haven't and thus by natural circumstances unless we get some magic, it will usually take longer time.

Figure out and make the correct decisions or move into the advisory President Jimmy D role and get someone that will.

Correct decisions isn't necessarily start making trades and swinging for fences. It may very well be, let people be healthy and play/develop and get the draft picks into the team to have to use less capital to acquire helpful pieces.

The league doesn’t stop spinning for us to get our perfect timing solution, he needs to make it happen or we need to find someone that can provide a vision that will in the current circumstances.

Seems to me that owner and GM have the same vision and agree on the plan that is in place.
Frustrating that it takes more time because of mostly things we cannot control, but on a good pathway.

Imagine that, lead the conference this season after 60-65 games and half the draft picks not even in the team yet, mostly because of age(being young) and some delayed because of injuries. Its not as "grim" as some like to push.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Obviously not. Cause you comparing moved by Carolina with Detroit as if its the same step of the process.

Every situation would be inherently unique if that is the argument angle you're taking.

How we got here was naming the most aggressive teams in the league in terms of Carolina. The point was this patience approach or purely built from within pipe dream isn't really a thing. How do we really take the next step, the young player development will be important, but we need to substantially win a trade or two and find some value free agent signings something we have struggled with mightily since Mark Howe retired and Verbeek departed for Anaheim.

So again I start with firing the entire pro scouting department.

One of the most important parts of Championship teams is which assets you move and which you keep. We have been in that phase for a few years now, not super pleased some are being pushed out through waiver issues. I still like the pool a lot, but not all of these guys are going to be Wings, Yzerman needs to make the right calls and overhaul a lot of the bottom of the lineup while finding finishing pieces at higher points in the lineup. Not impossible, but very unlikely with patience in my opinion.

We have moved into a tie for the second longest playoff drought in league history, it is pretty dire. This is longer than the period that rendered the nickname the Dead Things and the worst period of results in the 43 years of Ilitch family ownership. Plenty displeased with Chris Ilitch as well in this scenario.

 

[SirKillalot]

Every situation would be inherently unique if that is the argument angle you're taking.

Do you need rowing sticks? Cause you keep rowing around the answer.
Do you think Tulsky would be able to try making the trades or signings if he was hired earlier in their build process.

How we got here was naming the most aggressive teams in the league in terms of Carolina.

And I'm saying its not correct. They built quite patiently.
Its not until recent years they have been able to be more aggressive as now they know more of what their team is and where they need specific players. Vegas been a lot more aggressive than Carolina, but they also always been a bit of a special case as they got to start with a team with plenty of depth.

The issue is people comparing Carolina with Detroit, when Carolina has much more of a set team and Detroit doesn't. They can be aggressive because of that, that is the point. Of course we can too, but then the risk drastically increases with every move because of the cost of such trades.

The point was this patience approach or purely built from within pipe dream isn't really a thing. How do we really take the next step, the young player development will be important, but we need to substantially win a trade or two and find some value free agent signings something we have struggled with mightily since Mark Howe retired and Verbeek departed for Anaheim.

A lot of ways to Rome and it seems in this salary cap era its building more from within than before as the price to do different is costly. Why? Because of longer contracts and less UFA's every year.

Agree, the young development is going to be important and we have had some set backs there because of injuries as well as some have been very young and coming into the age of being given more opportunities now, hopefully all can stay healthy. Now we also at a point of having to clear spots for them to be given the opportunities.

Looking at our trade history, we rarely lose trades. But yes, those coming need to be hits.
Agree that we need to find value among UFA's.
Even though he is little bit on the older side of what I would like to be looking for, if we could, would be nice to sign Bobby McMann this off season. I think he would fit well here, though need to clear more guys out as well. Want more youth into the lineup.

MBN, Mazur (if staying), Lombardi (if staying), Danielson all should get opportunities I think.
Kasper should/must rebound. Finnie stabilize in top 9.
ASP on defense. Maybe some others get chances.
Cossa/Postava/Augustine is probably the best goalie prospect trio in the league, one should be up, maybe two.

Compher should be traded out, potentially Rasmussen and Appleton if there is suitors for them.
Perron and van Riemsdyk should be gone.
Kane I would take back, but should be aware of potentially not being in top six all season.

Also, plenty of younger forwards that probably not going to play in NHL next season, but progressing well. Like Bear, Kiiskinen, Genborg, James.

 

[wingsfannnn9191]

This better be a load of bs or we’ll just have to try to be the devils and play trap hockey to win games … yay fun

Basically saying McDavid was looking around Montreal homes and mtl is one of few teams he’d be interested to go to

 

[SirKillalot]

One of the most important part of Championship teams is which assets you move and which you keep. We have been in that phase for a few years now, not super pleased some are being pushed out through waiver issues.

I wouldn't say we been in that phase for very long, albeit a bit delayed getting there as mentioned before.
I do agree with your statement here, but it needs to be done when knowing more what fits where. Because of the delays and youth coming, we are still a little bit on the bubble there where we have thrown the dices and gotta wait a bit to see where they fall.

I think there will still be valuable pieces that could be traded later on in a package for something, but we need to have some of those pieces getting into and showing progression within the team first. At that point you can trade similar talent for upgrades.

I still like the pool a lot, but not all of these guys are going to be Wings, Yzerman needs to make the right calls and overhaul a lot of the bottom of the lineup while finding finishing pieces at higher points in the lineup.

Yes, and to me one first have to have a better understanding of who fits where and who can be sacrificed for those moves. Think this coming season will give some answers to this.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Do you need rowing sticks? Cause you keep rowing around the answer.
Do you think Tulsky would be able to try making the trades or signings if he was hired earlier in their build process.


And I'm saying its not correct. They built quite patiently.
Its not until recent years they have been able to be more aggressive as now they know more of what their team is and where they need specific players. Vegas been a lot more aggressive than Carolina, but they also always been a bit of a special case as they got to start with a team with plenty of depth.

The issue is people comparing Carolina with Detroit, when Carolina has much more of a set team and Detroit doesn't. They can be aggressive because of that, that is the point. Of course we can to, but then the risk drastically increases with every move because of the cost of such trades.

A lot of ways to Rome and it seems in this salary cap era its building more from within than before as the price to do different is costly. Why? Because of longer contracts and less UFA's every year.

Agree, the young development is going to be important and we have had some set backs there because of injuries as well as some have been very young and coming into the age of being given more opportunities now, hopefully all can stay healthy. Now we also at a point of having to clear spots for them to be given the opportunities.

Looking at our trade history, we rarely lose trades. But yes, those coming need to be hits.
Agree that we need to find value among UFA's.
Even though he is little bit on the older side of what I would like to be looking for, if we could, would be nice to sign Bobby McMann this off season. I think he would fit well here, though need to clear more guys out as well. Want more youth into the lineup.

MBN, Mazur (if staying), Lombardi (if staying), Danielson all should get opportunities I think.
Kasper should/must rebound. Finnie stabilize in top 9.

Compher should be traded out, potentially Rasmussen and Appleton if there is suitors for them.
Perron and van Riemsdyk should be gone.
Kane I would take back, but should be aware of potentially not being in top six all season.
ASP on defense. Maybe some others get chances.

No, but I doubt Tulsky would have been as passive as Yzerman the last several years given what we know of his management style either. Tulsky much like Zito doesn't come from the former high level players. They see these guys as assets, they set aggressive benchmarks. They operate these like businesses. I am afraid we are caught out in an old model. Colorado's current GM has been around the game a long time but a lawyer turned league executive that moved out to teams. Obviously Sakic is above him in advisory role. Jersey's new GM is an analytics wonder child.

I will also say I think Tom Dundon has a lot to do with how Carolina operates as well.

But I think what I am reading tea leaves wise is it is time to turn this over to a more modern approach.

For those that wanted to do away with Holland’s country club Yzerman kept a lot of it then imported his brother to make the pro scouting worse. Those are his choices and I have consistently said he is going to have next year. However, keeping the same D-core and jettisoning our former first round pick who has been very good at the AHL level are curious starts to the offseason in terms of rumor mills and the postseason presser.

He needs a big offseason here or I see no reason to continue forward in the current status quo. Yzerman has been given a ton of time, I hope he sticks the landing and gets this thing in gear, but if he cannot I am done being sold futures.

We can keep making excuses, but it reminds me of the scene in Days of Thunder where Robert Duval is explaining tire wear to Tom Cruise. There are only 32 of these jobs and they all have unique circumstances. You win or somebody else has yours, tough reality of the business and afraid to say where we have to be at this far into this.

 

[Oddbob]

Justin Faulk isn't good at playing defense. ASP will be in Grand Rapids all next year.

False to Faulk not being good in his own end.

 

[Heaton]

This better be a load of bs or we’ll just have to try to be the devils and play trap hockey to win games … yay fun

Basically saying McDavid was looking around Montreal homes and mtl is one of few teams he’d be interested to go to

Remember when people saw Ryan Suter looking at homes in Detroit before he signed with Minnesota?

 

[wingsfannnn9191]

Remember when people saw Ryan Suter looking at homes in Detroit before he signed with Minnesota?

I don’t actually my memory’s shit

I don’t think he’ll come to Montreal but it’s the last thing we need to happen

 

[wingsfannnn9191]

Mannnn I don’t know if it’s cause of the Elmer trade so when I look at draft sims and stuff I saw our 3rd there but I forgot we traded a 3rd for Faulk as well … we gave away the better 3rd rounder which doesn’t surprise me at this point

A 34 yr old with 1 year term and we gave up a 1st + buchelnikov + a 3rd my god … chiarot would be lucky to fetch a 3rd now

What would we even get for Faulk if we shipped him now? A 2nd and 5th? . Understood the deal but it was a clear desperation move by Yzerman … we should have that 15th pick this draft. Would have traded up to draft cullen

Oh well

 

[splot]

Every situation would be inherently unique if that is the argument angle you're taking.

How we got here was naming the most aggressive teams in the league in terms of Carolina. The point was this patience approach or purely built from within pipe dream isn't really a thing. How do we really take the next step, the young player development will be important, but we need to substantially win a trade or two and find some value free agent signings something we have struggled with mightily since Mark Howe retired and Verbeek departed for Anaheim.

So again I start with firing the entire pro scouting department.

One of the most important part of Championship teams is which assets you move and which you keep. We have been in that phase for a few years now, not super pleased some are being pushed out through waiver issues. I still like the pool a lot, but not all of these guys are going to be Wings, Yzerman needs to make the right calls and overhaul a lot of the bottom of the lineup while finding finishing pieces at higher points in the lineup. Not impossible, but very unlikely with patience in my opinion.

We have moved into a tie for the second longest playoff drought in league history, it is pretty dire. This is longer than the period that rendered the nickname the Dead Things and the worst period of results in the 43 years of Ilitch family ownership. Plenty displeased with Chris Ilitch as well in this scenario.

I don't think its fair to compare it to the dead things era. There were just 12 teams when it started, making the playoffs then were far easier then it is today, just being average as they've been the last couple of seasons would have had them in the playoffs comfortably.

I think Yzermans strategy have been sound so far, the main problem I see is the raising cap. They were positioned well to take advantage of teams being in cap hell, but that won't be nearly the issue it should have been. I think there's a decent chance that they might make the playoffs the next couple of years, but all the way to the finals? They are at two big pieces away from being in contention. When there's 32 instead of 12 teams the unfortunate reality is that droughts are going to get longer and longer by default.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I don't think its fair to compare it to the dead things era. There were just 12 teams when it started, making the playoffs then were far easier then it is today, just being average as they've been the last couple of seasons would have had them in the playoffs comfortably.

I think Yzermans strategy have been sound so far, the main problem I see is the raising cap. They were positioned well to take advantage of teams being in cap hell, but that won't be nearly the issue it should have been. I think there's a decent chance that they might make the playoffs the next couple of years, but all the way to the finals? They are at two big pieces away from being in contention. When there's 32 instead of 12 teams the unfortunate reality is that droughts are going to get longer and longer by default.

The main problem is his scouting department and the secondary issue is an ineffectual leadership group spearheaded by Larkin. You can get by with a guy like Larkin wearing the C if you can out talent everyone, but as we've seen for four years running, when the going gets tough, this group finds a way to fall short. Todd has been crystal clear about what the issue is with many of the players on this roster.

1C is almost certainly the most difficult position to fill and it happens to be our one remaining need. Adding a top 4 D like K'Andre Miller or Noah Dobson isn't going to address that need; signing Alex Tuch isn't going to address that need; Robert Thomas would have but there's no reason to believe he's available.

So you play the kids this year, trade your impending UFAs at the trade deadline, upgrade your scouting department, and draft your 1C at the 2027 draft.

This is the way.

 

[splot]

The main problem is his scouting department and the secondary issue is an ineffectual leadership group spearheaded by Larkin. You can get by with a guy like Larkin wearing the C if you can out talent everyone, but as we've seen for four years running, when the going gets tough, this group finds a way to fall short. Todd has been crystal clear about what the issue is with many of the players on this roster.

1C is almost certainly the most difficult position to fill and it happens to be our one remaining need. Adding a top 4 D like K'Andre Miller or Noah Dobson isn't going to address that need; signing Alex Tuch isn't going to address that need; Robert Thomas would have but there's no reason to believe he's available.

So you play the kids this year, trade your impending UFAs at the trade deadline, upgrade your scouting department, and draft your 1C at the 2027 draft.

This is the way.

Only way you really are able to regularly draft a 1C is with a top 3 pick, chances of them landing that is not great.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Only way you really are able to regularly draft a 1C is with a top 3 pick, chances of them landing that is not great.

That doesn't address the huge amount of whiffs out of North America with great draft capital. If we drafted real NHL talent instead we'd be further along. Perhaps we get lucky and we draft Wyatt Johnston instead of Sebastian Cossa.

Would this team look better with Wyatt Johnston instead of Sebastian Cossa?

Hell yeah it would.

 

[SirloinUB]

Mannnn I don’t know if it’s cause of the Elmer trade so when I look at draft sims and stuff I saw our 3rd there but I forgot we traded a 3rd for Faulk as well … we gave away the better 3rd rounder which doesn’t surprise me at this point

A 34 yr old with 1 year term and we gave up a 1st + buchelnikov + a 3rd my god … chiarot would be lucky to fetch a 3rd now

What would we even get for Faulk if we shipped him now? A 2nd and 5th? . Understood the deal but it was a clear desperation move by Yzerman … we should have that 15th pick this draft. Would have traded up to draft cullen

Oh well

I just wish we would have pursued a longer term asset.

The habs trading 2 x 1st + a prospect for dobson was a better move than trading a 1st+ for a short term band aid.

 

[wingsfannnn9191]

I just wish we would have pursued a longer term asset.

The habs trading 2 x 1st + a prospect for dobson was a better move than trading a 1st+ for a short term band aid.

Giving up that 1st for a 34 yr old never made any sense. Was a desperation move to make the playoffs …I understood it but it was dumb. Even before the trade I would have said Faulk was worth like a 2nd and 4th maybe meh prospect. 1st+3rd+ buch. Nuts

Oh 100% that was a better use of assets. A 1st they used was one I suggested we get for the Monaghan trade. We got a 2nd for staal during our rebuild. That’s it , it’s piss poor if you ask me … could have got the 1st for Marleau. Monaghan etc… don’t care if you had to throw back a 4-6th pick to get the 1st (no one ever sends back anything in those deals for 1sts) just do it

Anyways is what it is

 

[Run the Jewels]

Here's a great example of how scouting can help you land a cornerstone piece. This guy was just hired away from Minnesota by Toronto.

[The Quinn Hughes] blockbuster was bittersweet for Brackett and his amateur staff, whose work in selecting Rossi, Buium and Ohgren was the reason the Wild had enough assets to acquire a star like Hughes.

“When a trade involves prospects, obviously there’s an attachment from the group that started with watching them play as maybe a junior player and then their development over the years, so their success is something that’s, as an amateur group, we’re always proud of and you want to see them succeed and be a part of success with the Wild,” Brackett, the Wild’s director of amateur scouting since 2020, said. “But if they are a chip that can be cashed in for a player like Quinn Hughes, I mean, you have to consider it.”

The irony is that the player who came back was one Brackett was abundantly familiar with. He led the Canucks’ draft table when Hughes somehow fell to seventh in the 2018 draft and was snatched up by the Canucks. So there’s a sense of pride with Brackett and his right-hand man, amateur scout Dan Palango, who Brackett brought with him from Vancouver to Minnesota.

It sure would be nice to see us upgrade our scouting department.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

I don't think its fair to compare it to the dead things era. There were just 12 teams when it started, making the playoffs then were far easier then it is today, just being average as they've been the last couple of seasons would have had them in the playoffs comfortably.

I think Yzermans strategy have been sound so far, the main problem I see is the raising cap. They were positioned well to take advantage of teams being in cap hell, but that won't be nearly the issue it should have been. I think there's a decent chance that they might make the playoffs the next couple of years, but all the way to the finals? They are at two big pieces away from being in contention. When there's 32 instead of 12 teams the unfortunate reality is that droughts are going to get longer and longer by default.

Look at it however you want to, it is tied for the second longest in the history of the league. Yes it was easier to make the playoffs, but only Buffalo has done something worse than what we have going on right now. People can excuse that, I am done doing that.

 

[SirloinUB]

Im not sure how likely Calgary would be to move him but Morgan Frost could be an interesting option. It was a small sample size but he showed a bit of a glow up after Kadri was trade and he was thrust into a bigger role.

Averaged 42 points/season for the last 4 seasons while playing on some mediocre teams without an established role. He also won 56.8% of his faceoffs last season.

It would probably cost a pricey package but I think a move where we send Rasmussen/Appleton to Calgary while bringing back Frost could be solid. Bonus points if we can land Coleman at the same time.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Im not sure how likely Calgary would be to move him but Morgan Frost could be an interesting option. It was a small sample size but he showed a bit of a glow up after Kadri was trade and he was thrust into a bigger role.

Averaged 42 points/season for the last 4 seasons while playing on some mediocre teams without an established role. He also won 56.8% of his faceoffs last season.

It would probably cost a pricey package but I think a move where we send Rasmussen/Appleton to Calgary while bringing back Frost could be solid. Bonus points if we can land Coleman at the same time.

Frost would be an intriguing option, he's only signed through next season so if he's unwilling to sign an extension he'll likely be moved before the trade deadline. He put up 18 even strength goals for Philly back in 2022-23, so there may be some solid 5v5 play left.

He's 27 and doesn't really hit at all, but as you say the face-off numbers were impressive with over 1,000 draws.

I'd imagine they give him as many o-zone starts as possible if he's not signing an extension in order to goose those offensive stats. Nearly everyone wants a 2C, so there will be a market for him.

I'm fine with trying to pry him out of Calgary this summer. I don't think I'd want to enter those waters if they decide to move him at the TDL, that would likely prove pricey.

 

[SirloinUB]

Frost would be an intriguing option, he's only signed through next season so if he's unwilling to sign an extension he'll likely be moved before the trade deadline. He put up 18 even strength goals for Philly back in 2022-23, so there may be some solid 5v5 play left.

He's 27 and doesn't really hit at all, but as you say the face-off numbers were impressive with over 1,000 draws.

I'd imagine they give him as many o-zone starts as possible if he's not signing an extension in order to goose those offensive stats. Nearly everyone wants a 2C, so there will be a market for him.

I'm fine with trying to pry him out of Calgary this summer. I don't think I'd want to enter those waters if they decide to move him at the TDL, that would likely prove pricey.

I was thinking it would likely take something like 2027 1st. Maaaybe a sweetener as well. That's just a guess though. Not cheap for a guy who has never put up more than more than 46 points.

But I could also seeing him being successful between Debrincat and Kane and potentially locking in as a medium term 2C for his prime years. I could see him extending with us as playing with that kind of talent on a (in theory anyway) up and coming team could be a great situation for him.


Unrelated but someone on their sub-forum was kicking tires on swapping Sharangovich for Rasmussen. I didn't hate that idea as a low cost flier for a potential LWer.

 

[Run the Jewels]

I was thinking it would likely take something like 2027 1st. Maaaybe a sweetener as well. That's just a guess though. Not cheap for a guy who has never put up more than more than 46 points.

But I could also seeing him being successful between Debrincat and Kane and potentially locking in as a medium term 2C for his prime years. I could see him extending with us as playing with that kind of talent on a (in theory anyway) up and coming team could be a great situation for him.


Unrelated but someone on their sub-forum was kicking tires on swapping Sharangovich for Rasmussen. I didn't hate that idea as a low cost flier for a potential LWer.

For me, there's no way I would trade our 2027 first. The division is going to be brutal, we have to make decisions on Copp, Appleton, Gibson and Faulk, and with those factors there's too much potential for that pick to be in the top half of the draft. I would legit be willing to trade every single one of those guys at some point to build up our draft capital and perhaps get a decent young prospect in return.

I don't love the idea of acquiring Sharangovich, but he has 2 years where he put up 20 even strength goals, so there may be some goal scoring potential. He doesn't hit and he's terrible on faceoffs, so you are likely playing him at wing. I think I'd prefer to try out MBN in that role. He was great in GR, he really deserves an extended look if not a nailed on roster spot IMO.

I just don't see a clear role for Sharangovich, the only benefit is it would get Rasmussen out of the lineup, but I'm fine waiving him and letting Calgary claim him.

 

[SirloinUB]

For me, there's no way I would trade our 2027 first. The division is going to be brutal, we have to make decisions on Copp, Appleton, Gibson and Faulk, and with those factors there's too much potential for that pick to be in the top half of the draft. I would legit be willing to trade every single one of those guys at some point to build up our draft capital and perhaps get a decent young prospect in return.

I don't love the idea of acquiring Sharangovich, but he has 2 years where he put up 20 even strength goals, so there may be some goal scoring potential. He doesn't hit and he's terrible on faceoffs, so you are likely playing him at wing. I think I'd prefer to try out MBN in that role. He was great in GR, he really deserves an extended look if not a nailed on roster spot IMO.

I just don't see a clear role for Sharangovich, the only benefit is it would get Rasmussen out of the lineup, but I'm fine waiving him and letting Calgary claim him.

Fair concerns on the 1st. Id be okay trading it if we protect it and Im not necessarily saying frost should be the target. Unfortunately Frost is probably in that middling value where, the team that holds him isn't motivated to sell him for something like a 2nd + Mazur/Lombardi but trading a 1st would be a big leap for an acquiring team. Still, I think the fit is very interesting.

Would you do a top 15 protected 1st for him?

Ya Sharangovich would be a LW for us, which, given some of his goal scoring history could be interesting. If the cost is Rasmussen I might be willing to take the swing. The nice thing is he has shown he can score and it would leave all of our premium capital available for other moves.

Do you think a line of Sharangovich-Larkin-Raymond could work? It's kind of resonating with me but it's obviously not a surefire way to improve our offence.