If this season continues on this path do we go full rebuild in the offseason?

[Dubi Doo]

I'm over this core. I believe the stank runs too deep. Of course, there's time to turn it around, and if that happens, then great! Prove me wrong! Feed me crow! I don't think my appetite is going to be filled, though.

It's becoming more and more apparent that the stank has rubbed off on a bunch of our leadership core. Theyre too nonchalant in key moments of games, they still rely too much on skill, and theyre approaching damage beyond repair in this 'culture'.

If this year goes like last year, then Im down for a complete rebuild. Dahlin, Cozens, Tuch, etc...they can bring back quite the haul. They'll go onto greener pastures, and excell in their new roles, but it aint happening here.

We desperately need a new GM and new leadership in the lockerroom. We have assets teams value, and we have young players who can still be saved from this mess.

I'd be fine with keeping Ruff around to implement a system and have these boys playing the right way. Everything else, though? Peace.

I dont have much trust in Pegula making a smart GM hire, but what we know with what we have now just aint cutting it, so the unknown is more enticing.

Click to read more...

 

[Fezzy126]

No. I'm done with tear downs, find a way to get incrementally better every day, every month, every year, until the team becomes good. No more steps back, just steps forward.

 

[Fjordy]

No and we don't need it. The problem is not the players, we have good players, mostly all of them are still young, a smart GM can build a good team with these players with the addition of quality coaches and 3-4 good players (not necessarily elite or expensive), just the right parts that Adams hasn't taken care of this years.

 

[Dreakon13]

Adams bet on this group. When I say this group, I mean Thompson, Cozens, Dahlin, Power, Samuelsson... the kids who got their big deals and didn't get moved out. Cap space is reserved to re-sign Peterka, Quinn, maybe Byram, maybe Greenway, maybe Tuch, maybe Benson, etc. He bet on all these guys staying at or around 22-23 form or improving. He knew they lacked speed, physicality and intensity and tried to address that via the bottom 6. He knew they lacked structure and tried to address that with Ruff.

It's all been a big swing. If that plan fails, and it's looking more likely than not, I couldn't say if they need to rebuild or not. The hole has just gotten too deep and too complicated.

What I can say is it's time to finally bring in a GM and people around them with experience and a track record of success. If they do that, as a fan I'll go along with their plan. If they don't, rebuild or not I guess it doesn't really matter what they do since it probably won't work.

 

[Willgamesh]

Trading Dahlin/Power would turn out just like Eichel and Samson and the franchise would be shit for another 13 years or less then cease to exist. No Thanks.

 

[SabresFan26]

No we fire Kevyn Adams and let someone come in and build a team the right way. Not just collecting talent, it's about building a team. Someone with experience. Get rid of Adams, Forton, and any other proxies who are unqualified (Appert, Wilford, and Bales).

 

[57special]

Tearing down a team that is rebuilding is not the way to go. Something is off in BUF, for sure, but i think it's more about the off ice personnel. I was against the Ruff hire, thought the Skinner buyout was stupid and reactionary(as was the original contract awarded to him)... KA is not impressing me.

BUF has enough "talent", but need to build a team culture. Rewarding tough, defensive, resilient play needs to be part of it, but it starts with competence in management. I'm not sure that it is there.

I think the NHL is weak right now. There is no reason that the Sabres can't get into the playoffs, and even win a round, if they can avoid playing FLA.

If the Sabres are going to do any "tearing down", it needs to be in the coaching or GM ranks. I mean, how much can it hurt the on ice product? If anything, it might briefly give them a kick in the ass, or some hope, but just firing people(or players) without a plan will get them nowhere.

 

[Fjordy]

Tearing down a team that is rebuilding is not the way to go. Something is off in BUF, for sure, but i think it's more about the off ice personnel. I was against the Ruff hire, thought the Skinner buyout was stupid and reactionary(as was the original contract awarded to him)... KA is not impressing me.

BUF has enough "talent", but need to build a team culture. Rewarding tough, defensive, resilient play needs to be part of it, but it starts with competence in management. I'm not sure that it is there, right now.

I think the NHL is weak right now. There is no reason that the Sabres can't get into the playoffs right now, and even win a round, if they can avoid playing FLA.

If the Sabres are going to do any "tearing down", it needs to be in the coaching or GM ranks. I mean, how much can it hurt the on ice product? If anything, it might briefly give them a kick in the ass, or some hope, but just firing people(or players) without a plan will get them nowhere.

Even a non-Buffalo fan understands this. Our GM is incompetent, our coach doesn't seem to be allowed to bring his own people to the coaching staff, our special teams are some of the worst in the league, and our roster is full of holes and unbalance, and that's not the players' fault.

We don’t need another (eternal) rebuilding or even any serious re-equipment.

 

[OkimLom]

I lean towards a re-tooling of sorts, with cutting some financial fat off the roster, unless they take a pay cut for the FA's-to be, and accept a demotion in their role on the roster. But if a new GM decides this roster needs a rebuild, then so be it. I don't think the current roster has the Hockey-DNA I want out of them that will lead them to be successful, or they haven't shown it yet.

A rebuild isn't my 1st option, but I'm not closed-off from accepting one if they would want one.

 

[Jim Bob]

The Sabres have had 7 forwards, 5 D, and 2 goalies who are 25 years old or younger play a game this season.

One of the biggest issues with the lack of success over the past 8 years or so is that they never allow the young players to fully develop before things get blown up. And then we get people decrying that players are blossoming elsewhere after they were traded away.

The Sabres do not need to keep every 25 or younger player that they have today. But, blowing up the core completely and moving Dahlin, Thompson, Power, Peterka, and others will be repeating past mistakes, IMO.

 

[May Day 10]

I said no because I thought the question was "do I think they will do it"

I support it, with the right environment.

In my opinion, what ails this franchise the most is an acceptance of losing. Dropping a game(s) or seasons is acceptable as long as you 'learn' from it and the owner feels like we are getting closer to the success that he feels is inevitable. People at the Keybank Center make a lot of money. Players make millions and have long, guaranteed deals. They have long-time managers there making good, secure money. When you establish that failing is OK for so many years (we can argue the organization has been a stall-tactic since 2001) it is only human nature to go through the motions. Players come here and look like they have the fire that was missing, only to fade and join the rest of the malaise. Players get dealt from here and become much better/more successful players.

Pegula needs to turf Adams, as well as most of that front office staff: Jakubowski, Forton, Nightingale, Crowe, Karmanos, etc... Bring in someone with credibility and experience (my favorite idea is Poile), and allow them to build a winning program from the top-down. There would have to be full assurance of autonomy, a healthy budget, and NO preconditions that certain favorites are guaranteed jobs from the Sabres, Harborcenter, Jr Sabres, etc.

In that case, I would 1000% be on board with a full rebuild.


If it is President Adams, and GM Karmanos rebuilding this thing, count me out.

 

[Jim Bob]

I said no because I thought the question was "do I think they will do it"

I support it, with the right environment.

In my opinion, what ails this franchise the most is an acceptance of losing. Dropping a game(s) or seasons is acceptable as long as you 'learn' from it and the owner feels like we are getting closer to the success that he feels is inevitable. People at the Keybank Center make a lot of money. Players make millions and have long, guaranteed deals. They have long-time managers there making good, secure money. When you establish that failing is OK for so many years (we can argue the organization has been a stall-tactic since 2001) it is only human nature to go through the motions. Players come here and look like they have the fire that was missing, only to fade and join the rest of the malaise. Players get dealt from here and become much better/more successful players.

Pegula needs to turf Adams, as well as most of that front office staff: Jakubowski, Forton, Nightingale, Crowe, Karmanos, etc... Bring in someone with credibility and experience (my favorite idea is Poile), and allow them to build a winning program from the top-down. There would have to be full assurance of autonomy, a healthy budget, and NO preconditions that certain favorites are guaranteed jobs from the Sabres, Harborcenter, Jr Sabres, etc.

In that case, I would 1000% be on board with a full rebuild.


If it is President Adams, and GM Karmanos rebuilding this thing, count me out.

Poile is 74yo and retired as the Preds GM and stayed on as an advisor in Nashville.

I would be surprised if he were looking to be a GM again, especially here.

 

[May Day 10]

Poile is 74yo and retired as the Preds GM and stayed on as an advisor in Nashville.

I would be surprised if he were looking to be a GM again, especially here.

Not for GM. It would be a good sum of money (that he cant refuse) to access his credibility, knowledge, and rolodex.
He would install his own hierarchy/structure, hire a general manager, and delegate. After the front-end is completed, things should be pretty self-sufficient. He can show up to the games, count his money, whatever he wants.

It's largely a pipe-dream, but an example of what I would do if I were a billionaire owner. I saw the draft when he retired and how each team got to the podium and gushed about the guy. That's the credibility facelift this franchise desperately needs.

74, these days can still be a vibrant, working age. My bosses are all that age, and a few can kick my ass. Rick Dudley, a Sabres fan favorite is 75 and still going. And as I mentioned, he wouldnt be doing the day-to-day heavy lift of a GM, or even getting into the weeds of scouting and all that.

 

[Jim Bob]

Not for GM. It would be a good sum of money (that he cant refuse) to access his credibility, knowledge, and rolodex.
He would install his own hierarchy/structure, hire a general manager, and delegate. After the front-end is completed, things should be pretty self-sufficient. He can show up to the games, count his money, whatever he wants.

It's largely a pipe-dream, but an example of what I would do if I were a billionaire owner. I saw the draft when he retired and how each team got to the podium and gushed about the guy. That's the credibility facelift this franchise desperately needs.

74, these days can still be a vibrant, working age. My bosses are all that age, and a few can kick my ass. Rick Dudley, a Sabres fan favorite is 75 and still going. And as I mentioned, he wouldnt be doing the day-to-day heavy lift of a GM, or even getting into the weeds of scouting and all that.

You vastly underestimate the work it takes to be a good NHL GM if you think it is that easy.

 

[Nikolajs Sillers]

Rebuild the rebuild rebuild.

 

[May Day 10]

You vastly underestimate the work it takes to be a good NHL GM if you think it is that easy.

I dont think its easy to be GM at all. I said as much. Poile wont be GM due to the rigors and him having retired from that. He would choose the GM who would put in all that work.

Poile (in my never going to happen as long as Pegula is the owner scenario) would have a clean canvas. He would hire a GM. Him, and Id presume the GM would bring online their amateur, pro, and international scouting systems/departments. Hire the head of data, Hire the person to run strength and conditioning, training, nutrition. Even the equipment/lockerroom staff. Every facet.
Once everything is online, Poile's work is largely done. He can sit back and monitor from afar.

 

[Jim Bob]

I dont think its easy to be GM at all. I said as much. Poile wont be GM due to the rigors and him having retired from that. He would choose the GM who would put in all that work.

Poile (in my never going to happen as long as Pegula is the owner scenario) would have a clean canvas. He would hire a GM. Him, and Id presume the GM would bring online their amateur, pro, and international scouting systems/departments. Hire the head of data, Hire the person to run strength and conditioning, training, nutrition. Even the equipment/lockerroom staff. Every facet.
Once everything is online, Poile's work is largely done. He can sit back and monitor from afar.

Even a President of Hockey Ops is way more than that.

And I don't see Poile as some wizard that would do that, walk away, and everything would go swimmingly.

 

[May Day 10]

OK, then. Kevyn Adams as president, Karmanos as GM, and they can fit Adam Mair and Pat Kaleta in there somewhere.

 

[zenthusiast]

I think they need a major shift in direction rather than a restart. Not convinced either the GM or coach are the right answer

 

[BFLO]

I voted no in the sense that I don't think it would be a good idea to sell off players in order to stockpile futures. I certainly don't want Adams to be the one doing the selling.

However...

I do think we need a complete rebuild of the organization outside of the players.

• Fire everyone in the front office and all of the coaching staff. Fire everyone in Rochester too. Purge all of these losers and the pipeline of losers who keep getting promoted. I don't want there to be a single person left in the building that Terry can turn to, to be his new Yes Man like he did with Kevyn
• Hire a competent GM and give them autonomy and an unlimited budget. Terry's input should not be considered when it comes to hockey operations.
• Build a new arena or put like $100mm in improvements into KBC. Purge all of the bad juju in that building, it needs to be unrecognizable.
• Switch to the Black and Reds Goatheads full time. We need to purge the last 14 years of failure in the Blue and Golds.
• Purge the broadcast team and start from scratch on new programming for the broadcast. I never want to hear or see Duffer, Marty, Rayzor or Dunleavy making excuses for this shambling corpse of a franchise again. I never want to hear any of the songs from the broadcast ever again.

Edit: If the new GM wants to pull off some mega trades similar to a Hubes+Weegar for Tkachuck I'm all for it. We probably need that big of a shakeup in our lineup.

 

[HogtownSabresfan]

OK, then. Kevyn Adams as president, Karmanos as GM, and they can fit Adam Mair and Pat Kaleta in there somewhere.

Oh, that should work! Pegula needs to go and that's not happening.

 

[Shanahanigans]

Hey guys just wanted to chime in here. The most important thing to acquire is talent, which you have. The second most important thing is organizational accountability, which, IMO, is lacking. If the GM can be lacklustre and be fine, that rot will make its way down to the entire organization even if the players are talented.
The other thing is, you guys have a young skilled team who needs to learn how to win. I don't think Ruff is the coach to do that, but I do think you need a hard-ass coach instead of a players coach. Coaches like Darryl Sutter have made careers into turning young teams into hungry, tenacious teams. He was let go by Calgary years ago, they've traded half the roster but that team still has his mark, they play full throttle every shift of every game. The skill on the Sabres roster is there, there just needs to be the right coaching and management to bring it out.

 

[TehDoak]

I'm not sure what there is to blow up really. The only player close to UFA is Tuch. I mean, if we are out of the playoffs, Greenway and Joker are gone, but those are really huge movers in terms of franchise direction.

 

[OkimLom]

Hey guys just wanted to chime in here. The most important thing to acquire is talent, which you have. The second most important thing is organizational accountability, which, IMO, is lacking. If the GM can be lacklustre and be fine, that rot will make its way down to the entire organization even if the players are talented.
The other thing is, you guys have a young skilled team who needs to learn how to win. I don't think Ruff is the coach to do that, but I do think you need a hard-ass coach instead of a players coach. Coaches like Darryl Sutter have made careers into turning young teams into hungry, tenacious teams. He was let go by Calgary years ago, they've traded half the roster but that team still has his mark, they play full throttle every shift of every game. The skill on the Sabres roster is there, there just needs to be the right coaching and management to bring it out.

Thanks for another perspective.

From my point of view, I agree the team has talent. The biggest thing that is holding back the team, is the seemingly lack of "take charge" aspect of the player's "personality". Watching a Sabres game, you're always waiting for someone or a group of players to take charge of the team. Tage who is probably the most talented player on the roster, is solid offensively, but watching him play, there's just not that "attitude" in his play, that often see in other #1 centers around the league, especially at this talent level.

The team has a good amount of talent, but it's all supporting talent. It's an issue because this team needs a lot of accountability on the roster due to the young age, but there isn't that much leadership quality players to hold their fellow players accountable to support any accountability the head coach wants to implement. It's one thing for the coach to try, but you need the players to support said coach, and it doesn't seem to be there, and the roster just doesn't seem to show that they want to take on that role.

What's worse, is that it's very clear in the top 6 group of players this lack of drive in the players' characteristics to have that trait, the ones you want to lead the charge for the team since they would be relied upon for more ice time. Once in a while Tuch will show that attitude, but it's very inconsistent.

 

[Shanahanigans]

Thanks for another perspective.

From my point of view, I agree the team has talent. The biggest thing that is holding back the team, is the seemingly lack of "take charge" aspect of the player's "personality". Watching a Sabres game, you're always waiting for someone or a group of players to take charge of the team. Tage who is probably the most talented player on the roster, is solid offensively, but watching him play, there's just not that "attitude" in his play, that often see in other #1 centers around the league, especially at this talent level.

The team has a good amount of talent, but it's all supporting talent. It's an issue because this team needs a lot of accountability on the roster due to the young age, but there isn't that much leadership quality players to hold their fellow players accountable to support any accountability the head coach wants to implement. It's one thing for the coach to try, but you need the players to support said coach, and it doesn't seem to be there, and the roster just doesn't seem to show that they want to take on that role.

What's worse, is that it's very clear in the top 6 group of players this lack of drive in the players' characteristics to have that trait, the ones you want to lead the charge for the team since they would be relied upon for more ice time. Once in a while Tuch will show that attitude, but it's very inconsistent.

Agreed- Florida traded Huberdeau and Weegar, who are both immensely talented, for Tkatchuk who is the type of leader you're describing. Vancouver's most talented players are Hughes Petterson, but the guy who leads the charge emotionally and leadership wise is 100% JT Miller. Mackinnon and Landeskog both have that personality. Part of the Leafs stuggles in the playoffs is that many people believe their core doesn't have that "will die and kill to win" type leader. In Edmonton, both Mcdavid and Draisaitl can be intense but I believe it took them some time, and the leadership of guys like Duncan Keith in his final season helped to teach them how to demand more of themselves and the team around them. Minnesota isn't the most talented roster but guys Marcus Foglino won't be okay with lacklustre, emotionless hockey. It's a tough line to draw but IMO you see a lot of teams collect talent but not take the next step. Learning how to win is a long, hard process.