Post-Game Talk: If only Sullivan could get goaltending.

[Pem]

Trust me I think Hextall is being far too patient as well. It’s annoying. He needed to dump Dumoulin, Ruhwedel, and Heinen and forced Sullivan to use options they have. But now he just seems resigned or something. When the ownership pushes for a coach extension, must feel weird knowing you have zero power and they were already questioning you in the summer barely into the job and fixing JR’s mistakes.


I think this off season the mandate was keep Crosby happy and the core together. They can play the whole we didn’t know who would come back bs all they want, we know better.

I think the Matheson deal, the Marino one, and the Rakell one were Hextall, the Rust, Letang, and Malkin was all keep Sid Happy.

What one more

Pretty easy gig to be this team's GM...

#1 Fire the coach
#2 sell some bums like Dumo that contenders will pay for.

Jarry back after break, we were looking at other positions. I like desmith but he doesn't have it right now. Goalie now priority one.

 

[Ugene Magic]

How do you figure? You notice how that depth was only something you talk about because they were given a chance?

Ask yourself why they were given a chance. Was it because Sully coached them in the AHL first? Kuhn, Archie, Wilson, Rust, etc were all his players from Wbs.

Gruden, Hallander, Puustinen, Nylander, etc we’re all barely given a chance if at all for some of them outside of a game or two. We have depth. But when a coach only wants to use Ruhwedel over Friedman or Dumoulin over Smith or give Heinen chance number 15 and not a single one to others after mistakes, the issue isn’t the roster.

This roster has been poorly utilized for a while. This is a team that is closer to being so harshly used that they’re in the Therrien era of being frustrated and need a coach that has a different approach.

They were given a chance because JR couldn't fill all the needs through trades, but all the bigger pieces were in place. These players were what are fillers/complimentary players at the time they said no more trades.

Make it work.

This team is in no way like that. Not one player that's gonna be called up is going to bring the element they need. The top six is full.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Yep. Agree. Sentiment is gonna win out and result in some real boring FO work and on-ice product for the next however many years until Sid finally hangs 'em up. I highly doubt he follows through on his bullshit about wanting to play another three years after his current deal is up with how this team's been trending, and will continue to trend. Doubt Geno plays his 4th season of this contract, and I'd be surprised if Letang plays in his 5th, let alone 6th.

As for the blueline reshuffle, it's the same shit, different turd imo. I was pleasantly surprised Rakell stuck around as I thought Rust re-signing killed that off. Not stoked Rust made it through last deadline without being dealt, let alone re-signed, but it is what it is. Big shrug

I was warming up to seeing Rust get moved in the off season before the draft. Rust is just not used correctly by Sullivan. He sees only two options for him. That’s Sully’s issue. He only sees a few options and repeats them to death. For me it’s too much of what Bylsma used to do. Honestly I think Hextall probably looks forward to being fired so he can get out of this shit show.

Ownership having a hard on for Sully, etc. I wouldn’t be shocked if Hextall was fired and they’d just make Sully the Gm.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

This organization's young players are trash anyway. Guys like DOC, Hallander, Puustinen, Gruden, etc. are all afterthoughts and even caring about their TOI or opportunities is making a mountain out of a mole hill, imo.

That being said, it'd have been nice to run a bottom-6 cheap as dirt if the team was fine with having half its forward corps be totally f***ing useless and a liability to boot. Throw the DOCs, Hallanders, etc. out there, f*** it. They suck, but at least this team would have some cap space to potentially chase a name that'd made a difference instead of staring down the most boring deadline in like 15 years.

 

[Pens x]

JR’s most damaging move post 2017 was endorsing Hextall to take over for him when he quit. I’m not sure why Mario and co. listened to his dumbass after he quit, but to his credit, he found someone equally as ineffective (just in different ways).

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

I was warming up to seeing Rust get moved in the off season before the draft. Rust is just not used correctly by Sullivan. He sees only two options for him. That’s Sully’s issue. He only sees a few options and repeats them to death. For me it’s too much of what Bylsma used to do. Honestly I think Hextall probably looks forward to being fired so he can get out of this shit show.

Ownership having a hard on for Sully, etc. I wouldn’t be shocked if Hextall was fired and they’d just make Sully the Gm.

Ah yes, the reverse Lamoriello

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I don’t think it is. I think a new coach coming in and trying more of the kids and just easing up on the hard defensive zone usage of the bottom 6 and a shake up on the system would cause positive changes. The problem with Sullivan is he still can’t figure out what won the 2 cups and thinks his system was it, when it was the change from Bylsma-MJ-Him and some quick JR moves. I don’t think we have a bad roster at all. I think a few players that deserve to sit are playing because the coach panders to the core and vets , that’s on the coach.

I understand what you're saying, but every coach in the NHL uses essentially the same system these days. It's not like before where a couple teams trapped like hell, a few others were run and gun, or anything like that.

They all use a similar forecheck and neutral zone approach. The difference is in aggression. Some forecheck like hell and punish you. Others sit back.

That's why personnel matters so much and why it's no longer feasible to have a fourth line where you can just bury guys. They have to be able to contribute.

I think this franchise is caught in between what it wants to do and what its roster is capable of doing. It had success being an aggressive forechecking team. The more it could spend time in the offensive zone by hounding the opposing defense and starting a cycle, the less time it had to defend its own zone where their individual weaknesses would show.

The Penguins do not have that ability to forecheck consistently. Crosby and Malkin are still good, but they're not quite as strong on the puck as they were six years ago. They're not quite as fast to loose pucks. Add in that Guentzel has been routinely muscled off pucks this year and that Rust is playing extraordinarily soft, and your top two lines are ironically the most talented they've been in years but also the easiest to play against they've been in years.

The bottom six poses little CONSISTENT offensive threat. Carter's issues are well-documented. He's aged rapidly. McGinn can be effective but he needs support. Blueger has been very soft - he hasn't been the same since his jaw injury, and he's clearly in his head offensively.

DOC and Poehling show flashes and are solid forecheckers, but they struggle with some of the details in their own zone, as evidenced by the goal Karlsson scored tonight where Poehling was caught watching. Archibald is what he is. And Heinen has top six skills with bottom six consistency. At best he should be the scoring option on an otherwise physical two-way third line.

So, you say, if they can't be aggressive, why not play passive? Because the stars can't do it. They've never been able to be the team that traps, that sits back and lulls the other team to sleep. Johnston tried it and it damn near ruined Sid and Geno. And that was in their prime.

People will point to Boston and the fact that their old guys are one of the best defensive teams in the league. And it's true. But Sid and Geno have never been Bergeron and Krejci. Even Marchand is willing to focus on defense.

The Penguins stars will play defensively ONLY if they can do it in a way that allows them to continue being explosive offensively. That's why they need better support. If the top six is going to be more finesse like it's currently conducted, then the bottom six needs to forecheck like hell and wear the opposition down on a nightly basis.

This is why I stand by this being a personnel, not a coaching issue. And, honestly, if I thought there were options in WBS, I'd be criticizing Sullivan a lot more for his player usage. But there's nothing down there. We try and talk ourselves in to Puustinen or Nylander, but they're not what this team needs nor are they really busting the door down demanding NHL minutes.

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

JR’s most damaging move post 2017 was endorsing Hextall to take over for him when he quit.

I still think it was Jack Johnson

 

[Rossi Rat]

Logan Jefferson Couture

 

[Honour Over Glory]

They were given a chance because JR couldn't fill all the needs through trades, but all the bigger pieces were in place. These players were what are fillers/complimentary players at the time they said no more trades.

Make it work.

This team is in no way like that. Not one player that's gonna be called up is going to bring the element they need. The top six is full.

The players that brought energy were on the bottom 6 in that time. Jake was a surprise in the second cup win, but HBK was something he kept trying to make a version of after Bones left and he couldn’t see past it.

But Kuhn, Rust, Wilson, etc brought a willingness to battle and bring energy. Right now this team is so poorly utilized that the players are just going through the motions and look lost. Gruden brought some energy, so did Poulin and Friedman but Sullivan wanted to play his guys instead.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I was warming up to seeing Rust get moved in the off season before the draft. Rust is just not used correctly by Sullivan. He sees only two options for him. That’s Sully’s issue. He only sees a few options and repeats them to death. For me it’s too much of what Bylsma used to do. Honestly I think Hextall probably looks forward to being fired so he can get out of this shit show.

Ownership having a hard on for Sully, etc. I wouldn’t be shocked if Hextall was fired and they’d just make Sully the Gm.

It's a bit of column A, and a bit of column B when it comes to Rust, imo. Sully can't stand the thought of anything but his beloved GCRust, and that line is a one-dimensional (ideally) shitshow. Partly because of that column B I was talking about, which is that Rust has taken it upon himself for years now to follow the path of Kunitz, in losing all of his usefulness away from the puck in favor of coasting and floating around the ice looking to score gimme points. Now that he's got that comfy new retirement deal, it's just gotten that much worse, and what you could kinda turn a blind eye to when Rust was a near-PPG player vanished because he's back down to being like a 50pt guy, and his motor/hunger sucks absolute shit on top of that now. Very cool stuff.

I've thought Hextall would be gone by January 1st with the way the team's been floundering around, but I guess ownership actually cares even less than I thought they did, and I thought they didn't give a single f***.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I understand what you're saying, but every coach in the NHL uses essentially the same system these days. It's not like before where a couple teams trapped like hell, a few others were run and gun, or anything like that.

They all use a similar forecheck and neutral zone approach. The difference is in aggression. Some forecheck like hell and punish you. Others sit back.

That's why personnel matters so much and why it's no longer feasible to have a fourth line where you can just bury guys. They have to be able to contribute.

I think this franchise is caught in between what it wants to do and what its roster is capable of doing. It had success being an aggressive forechecking team. The more it could spend time in the offensive zone by hounding the opposing defense and starting a cycle, the less time it had to defend its own zone where their individual weaknesses would show.

The Penguins do not have that ability to forecheck consistently. Crosby and Malkin are still good, but they're not quite as strong on the puck as they were six years ago. They're not quite as fast to loose pucks. Add in that Guentzel has been routinely muscled off pucks this year and that Rust is playing extraordinarily soft, and your top two lines are ironically the most talented they've been in years but also the easiest to play against they've been in years.

The bottom six poses little CONSISTENT offensive threat. Carter's issues are well-documented. He's aged rapidly. McGinn can be effective but he needs support. Blueger has been very soft - he hasn't been the same since his jaw injury, and he's clearly in his head offensively.

DOC and Poehling show flashes and are solid forecheckers, but they struggle with some of the details in their own zone, as evidenced by the goal Karlsson scored tonight where Poehling was caught watching. Archibald is what he is. And Heinen has top six skills with bottom six consistency. At best he should be the scoring option on an otherwise physical two-way third line.

So, you say, if they can't be aggressive, why not play passive? Because the stars can't do it. They've never been able to be the team that traps, that sits back and lulls the other team to sleep. Johnston tried it and it damn near ruined Sid and Geno. And that was in their prime.

People will point to Boston and the fact that their old guys are one of the best defensive teams in the league. And it's true. But Sid and Geno have never been Bergeron and Krejci. Even Marchand is willing to focus on defense.

The Penguins stars will play defensively ONLY if they can do it in a way that allows them to continue being explosive offensively. That's why they need better support. If the top six is going to be more finesse like it's currently conducted, then the bottom six needs to forecheck like hell and wear the opposition down on a nightly basis.

This is why I stand by this being a personnel, not a coaching issue. And, honestly, if I thought there were options in WBS, I'd be criticizing Sullivan a lot more for his player usage. But there's nothing down there. We try and talk ourselves in to Puustinen or Nylander, but they're not what this team needs nor are they really busting the door down demanding NHL minutes.

Go watch Canes, Bruins, and even the Sabres (with better players on D would be well above the Pens), then watch what the Pens try to do and notice how those teams tweak and change things up in the game to try and fight back. Pens just resign themselves to the system and stick to it. The point isn’t that the Pens system is shit, it’s that it’s the system or bust. The other teams adapt, evolve, try things. Pens do the grind them bitches down but version 2 with Sullivan.

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

Go watch Canes, Bruins, and even the Sabres (with better players on D would be well above the Pens), then watch what the Pens try to do and notice how those teams tweak and change things up in the game to try and fight back. Pens just resign themselves to the system and stick to it. The point isn’t that the Pens system is shit, it’s that it’s the system or bust. The other teams adapt, evolve, try things. Pens do the grind them bitches down but version 2 with Sullivan.

When Trotz figured Sully out with two different teams. You know shit was bad.

It really began to highlight his arrogance and inability to change or try new things.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

@DesertedPenguin I will add that Rust, Kuhnhackl, Archibald, and Wilson weren’t breaking down the door either. But they brought energy and a game or two was warranted. They got at least that.

You can’t really say what most of the kids are in Wbs because for one, the coach down there really isn’t getting the most out of them, wbs used to be a coveted job as it was a stepping stone into the nhl for a lot of coaches but now? They’ve basically had two coaches after the assault douche, that barely had any legit head coaching experience. I think Forrest is great at coaching the D. But he’s not the coach I would have there at all and I think they’ve had a hard time trying to find someone and have just stuck with what they knew already.

The gripes about Puustinen by sully was he needed to work on his 2way game last year, yet we saw a player that looked strong at both ends and created a goal only to never play another game for the Pens again. Doc at this point is a veteran to Sully.

When Trotz figured Sully out with two different teams. You know shit was bad.

It really began to highlight his arrogance and inability to change or try new things.

The Rangers also figured out the pens. They were brats that easily retaliated and were very easily goaded into the run and gun game where the Rangers f***ed them and then some with physicality.

Isles were also physical and took it to them.
Caps did too with Trotz.

Under Sully they retreat and retaliate and he refuses to change anything.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Go watch Canes, Bruins, and even the Sabres (with better players on D would be well above the Pens), then watch what the Pens try to do and notice how those teams tweak and change things up in the game to try and fight back. Pens just resign themselves to the system and stick to it. The point isn’t that the Pens system is shit, it’s that it’s the system or bust. The other teams adapt, evolve, try things. Pens do the grind them bitches down but version 2 with Sullivan.

The Penguins absolutely change throughout the year. Sometimes it's one high forward. Other times it's two. Sometimes it's a slide to stack the blue line against faster teams. Sometimes it's more stretch passes, sometimes it's moving more as a group.

They notably did it last year against the Rangers. Remember they struggled in the regular season against them? They tweaked the zone exits and the forecheck positioning in the playoffs and dominated possession most games.

 

[Coastal Kev]

The reality is, based on the last offseason, THIS season is as good as it gets for the next 6 seasons...............and THEN the rebuild begins.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I still think it was Jack Johnson

It all started with the demolishing of the D-corps and believing Ruhwedel could be an everyday #6.

That, and thinking they needed toughness the likes of Reaves. The Pens were in a position to lose only who they had to. Then they kept going.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Pens lost vs the Habs in the play-in as well because he didn’t see past the GCR line and stuck to it and they performed super poorly yet he just couldn’t change anything because he kept thinking next game, next game, then boom off season and no answers.

 

[Gurglesons]

I

They all use a similar forecheck and neutral zone approach. The difference is in aggression. Some forecheck like hell and punish you. Others sit back.

That's why personnel matters so much and why it's no longer feasible to have a fourth line where you can just bury guys. They have to be able to contribute.

I think this franchise is caught in between what it wants to do and what its roster is capable of doing. It had success being an aggressive forechecking team. The more it could spend time in the offensive zone by hounding the opposing defense and starting a cycle, the less time it had to defend its own zone where their individual weaknesses would show.

The Penguins do not have that ability to forecheck consistently. Crosby and Malkin are still good, but they're not quite as strong on the puck as they were six years ago. They're not quite as fast to loose pucks. Add in that Guentzel has been routinely muscled off pucks this year and that Rust is playing extraordinarily soft, and your top two lines are ironically the most talented they've been in years but also the easiest to play against they've been in years.

The bottom six poses little CONSISTENT offensive threat. Carter's issues are well-documented. He's aged rapidly. McGinn can be effective but he needs support. Blueger has been very soft - he hasn't been the same since his jaw injury, and he's clearly in his head offensively.

DOC and Poehling show flashes and are solid forecheckers, but they struggle with some of the details in their own zone, as evidenced by the goal Karlsson scored tonight where Poehling was caught watching. Archibald is what he is. And Heinen has top six skills with bottom six consistency. At best he should be the scoring option on an otherwise physical two-way third line.

So, you say, if they can't be aggressive, why not play passive? Because the stars can't do it. They've never been able to be the team that traps, that sits back and lulls the other team to sleep. Johnston tried it and it damn near ruined Sid and Geno. And that was in their prime.

People will point to Boston and the fact that their old guys are one of the best defensive teams in the league. And it's true. But Sid and Geno have never been Bergeron and Krejci. Even Marchand is willing to focus on defense.

The Penguins stars will play defensively ONLY if they can do it in a way that allows them to continue being explosive offensively. That's why they need better support. If the top six is going to be more finesse like it's currently conducted, then the bottom six needs to forecheck like hell and wear the opposition down on a nightly basis.

This is why I stand by this being a personnel, not a coaching issue. And, honestly, if I thought there were options in WBS, I'd be criticizing Sullivan a lot more for his player usage. But there's nothing down there. We try and talk ourselves in to Puustinen or Nylander, but they're not what this team needs nor are they really busting the door down demanding NHL minutes.

I’m confused why you’ve brought up Karlsson’s goal being Poehling’s fault multiple times.

Karlsson was Heinen’s man in that sequence and our D completely sold out and let Karlsson walk in.



You can even see Letang tell Heinen to cover Karlsson in the clip.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Y'know what, maybe Rust's Kunitz impersonation is exactly why he's always with Sid after all...

I'm joking. Maybe.

When Trotz figured Sully out with two different teams. You know shit was bad.

It really began to highlight his arrogance and inability to change or try new things.

Luckily for Trotz he's had some pretty stellar goalies recently, because Trotz's systems love to clog up the middle and play a bend but don't break style that makes already good goalies into elite goalies.

It's why I physically recoil when people suggest firing Sully and hiring Trotz. Buddy, could you imagine this f***ing dogshit team trying to play a Trotz-style game? With *these* two f***ing clown ass goalies? God, it'd be the f***ing Mike Johnston Penguins all over again, but the core would be a decade older and there wouldn't be depth like a prime Hornqvist and Kessel. f***ing yikes. Actually... Go for it. It'd be full on tanking, and people could still hug their Jake, Sid, and Geno pillows tight while the team got to collect their top-5 picks for the next chapter. Brilliant.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

5-5-3 for January. Pretty trash, considering it wasn't a tough schedule. Only one back-to-back.
The strength of competition was nothing special either.

The silver lining is losing this one the way we did strongly boosts our chances of getting the top 6 combos we want, coming out of the break.
The Sharks owned us at 5v5. May be the best thing for the team long term.

Will be nice to get Jarry back. There's gonna be some tough decisions to make with Kap and Archi being healthy too, unless more guys go down somehow lol.

 

[Tacitus Kilgore]

The Rangers also figured out the pens. They were brats that easily retaliated and were very easily goaded into the run and gun game where the Rangers f***ed them and then some with physicality.

Isles were also physical and took it to them.
Caps did too with Trotz.

Under Sully they retreat and retaliate and he refuses to change anything.

Basically, we fold under teams that are any bit more physical than us. We could be even in scoring with a team, but if they are more physical than us we're gonna get destroyed.

Maybe I'm hammered but I wish we had dudes like prime Aaron Asham and prime Cooke (minus the obvious dirty plays) in the bottom 6.

 

[Pancakes]

5-5-3 for January. Pretty trash, considering it wasn't a tough schedule. Only one back-to-back.
The strength of competition was nothing special either.

The silver lining is losing this one the way we did strongly boosts our chances of getting the top 6 combos we want, coming out of the break.
The Sharks owned us at 5v5. May be the best thing for the team long term.

Will be nice to get Jarry back. There's gonna be some tough decisions to make with Kap and Archi being healthy too, unless more guys go down somehow lol.

This coaching staff is gonna take a good long look at the line combos out of the break and then come back with GCR

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

This coaching staff is gonna take a good long look at the line combos out of the break and then come back with GCR

Nine full days for pesky reporters like Shirey and Hasse to get off his ass? You better believe Sully's coming out with his GCRust guns a-blazin' on Feb. 7th.

 

[Pens x]

The bottom six hasnt been this useless since the stretch when McKegg was an opening night starter.

Bravo, sleepy. That’s impressive.