Ideas and suggestions for a true World Cup

[Mr Kanadensisk]

What NHL'er was released for 2 weeks in 92 and 94? AHL'ers, yes. I don't recall any NHL'ers.

There weren't any from the NHL that I can recall. I clearly remember Mats Sundin saying in an interview that he never thought twice about missing the OG when he came to the NHL.

 

[sandysan]

I may be the first to tell you, but there is an entire planet outside of exceptionalistan, and many players in the NHL even come from these strange places. But even stranger is, that all the other leagues can get along very well with international tournaments, and by some bloody miracle they managed to stay solvent even with their best talent going overseas for free.

But good to know that money is everything in sports. I mean who cares for competition or entertainment, right? What's important is that billionaire owners/companies make their cut

money isnt everything in sports. professional sports on the other hand ............

The nhl isnt some freaking charity that exists to give the IOC an asset for free that they IOC gets fat off of by pointing some guy on a zamboni towards the ice. Even if you really really think it should be.

And sure if the NHL were solvent like sone of these other third or fourth rate leagues that would be FAAAAN-Tastic.

As for competition, I'm all for it. I want to see the best ofthe best play each other which is why the WHC is rightfully described as the world shamiponships of hockey. So that leaves the olympics where a bunch of people OTHER than the players and the teams to which they are contracted get rich.

Is the world cup perfect ? no, but its sure as hell closer to best on best than anything other than the olympics. pardon me if I don't weep a tear for the fourth line belarrusian player that gets bumped from playing his 3 -5 minutes a game.

again WHO is assuming the risk by having the players play in the olympics ? Its not the IOC, its not the IIHF its the players and the teams to which they are contracted. So you are fine with the idea that the people who ARE the draw who ASSUME all of the risk getting precisely ZERO for their contributions and the owners, who RELEASE THE PLAYERS to play, they can't even use clips of the players THEY are gifting to the IOC to promote their own brand ?

Why does the ioc act like a business when it negotiates broadcast rights but when it talks to the talent it cries poor, reaches into it pockets and hopes a moth might fly out ? you want to attract people to watch the best players onthe planet, then its on you to PAY the best players on the planet.

 

[FiLe]

money isnt everything in sports. professional sports on the other hand ............

The nhl isnt some freaking charity that exists to give the IOC an asset for free that they IOC gets fat off of by pointing some guy on a zamboni towards the ice. Even if you really really think it should be.

In that case, why do all the world's biggest soccer leagues do it? Why do all the world's biggest volleyball leagues do it? Why does the NBA do it?

They have no issues playing ball with both the IOC and their venues' respective global governing bodies. So why should the NHL be an outlier? Why should they be the ones who dictate when the world's best national teams get to play and under what rules, when leagues far bigger than them happily adhere themselves to the control of another body - sometimes under demands that are also by and far stricter than what the IIHF would ever ask of them? What moral high ground do they have?

Think about this, long and hard, before you spew any further nonsense. Because the truth is, you only support the NHL for doing what it does because it happens to fit into your own selfish manners what comes to enjoying the sport.

 

[sandysan]

In that case, why do all the world's biggest soccer leagues do it? Why do all the world's biggest volleyball leagues do it? Why does the NBA do it?

They have no issues playing ball with both the IOC and their venues' respective global governing bodies. So why should the NHL be an outlier? Why should they be the ones who dictate when the world's best national teams get to play and under what rules, when leagues far bigger than them happily adhere themselves to the control of another body - sometimes under demands that are also by and far stricter than what the IIHF would ever ask of them? What moral high ground do they have?

Think about this, long and hard, before you spew any further nonsense. Because the truth is, you only support the NHL for doing what it does because it happens to fit into your own selfish manners what comes to enjoying the sport.

they should get to do all of the things you mentioned because they have the talent under contract. That's why.

That and ( and please forgive the snickering, I didnt realize how empty my life had been living in ignorance of a professional volleyball league) the NBA might decide that its is in their best interest to showcase the game to grow globally. Certainly looking at the rosters of NBA teams, and of its popularity oversees, that this makes good business sense for the NBA. Despite doing it longer, the NHL gets nothing ZIPPO from olymic participation. The greatest north american advertisement for hockey ( lake placid in 80) did ZERO to increase participation.

And soccer is fine as well because its an extremely LOW infrastructure sport ( so is basketball). Hockey is not. The idea that seeing NHL players in the olympics is going to cause a groudswell of rinks being built in China or jakarta or Sudan is NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. i

As to why the NHL gets to act the way they do and don't have to act like the NBA ( but somewhat more like the NFL) is because they have the assets. They control the draw and the draw is the players under contract. if the demand is there, then as a league with the talent they can do their own damn tournament ( which is what the world cup is).

I hope, I pray that the nhl skips the next olympics because a bunch of has beens and never weres donning their national jerseys is likely the only think that gets the ioc to come off of their transparently untrue lie " but we don't have the money".

if the world cup goes over well, bye bye olympics and good riddance.

 

[FiLe]

As to why the NHL gets to act the way they do and don't have to act like the NBA ( but somewhat more like the NFL) is because they have the assets. They control the draw and the draw is the players under contract. if the demand is there, then as a league with the talent they can do their own damn tournament ( which is what the world cup is).

Hah. If the NHL really has all the necessary talent to organize a proper international tournament, what are teams like the Leftovers and YoungStarz doing in this upcoming show then?

The very evidence showing that your argument is a load of crock is right under your eyes. The participants in international competitions are national teams. If the NHL really had all the pieces required to organize a proper event that rivals the Olympics, they would have no issues drawing enough proper NTs from the contracts they control.

But they don't. So they've no business acting like a global body of hockey.

 

[therealdeal]

Man FiLe, get over it. The NHL doesn't care about international hockey, they're a business. Their job is to make money. I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue.

Hockey is a business. The WHC is, the WJC is, and the Olympics are. Lets move on here. If you don't like the tournament, then don't watch it. Boycott the players who will be playing it, who cares.

 

[FiLe]

Man FiLe, get over it. The NHL doesn't care about international hockey, they're a business. Their job is to make money. I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue.

Hockey is a business. The WHC is, the WJC is, and the Olympics are. Lets move on here. If you don't like the tournament, then don't watch it. Boycott the players who will be playing it, who cares.

My only beef with the World Cup is that it's being presented as a potential replacement for the Olympic tournament. If this comes to pass, it's a pretty bold move by a league that has provided barely 50% of the talent present in the past two olympics.

However, if they leave the sport's pinnacle international tournament alone (a view that's btw shared by majority of the NHL players), I honestly don't care even if they turn the World Cup into an annual event. It's not like there's no room for it. But it should only add to the sport as a whole, not detract anything from it.

 

[patnyrnyg]

In that case, why do all the world's biggest soccer leagues do it? Why do all the world's biggest volleyball leagues do it? Why does the NBA do it?

They have no issues playing ball with both the IOC and their venues' respective global governing bodies. So why should the NHL be an outlier? Why should they be the ones who dictate when the world's best national teams get to play and under what rules, when leagues far bigger than them happily adhere themselves to the control of another body - sometimes under demands that are also by and far stricter than what the IIHF would ever ask of them? What moral high ground do they have?

Think about this, long and hard, before you spew any further nonsense. Because the truth is, you only support the NHL for doing what it does because it happens to fit into your own selfish manners what comes to enjoying the sport.

Volleyball? Please.

Basketball it is simple, all the tournaments are in summer during the NBA off-season.

Soccer? same thing. The big leagues run from August-may and they do the World Cup and other tourneys in June-July. Leagues are already complaining about them moving the World Cup when it is in Qatar.

 

[patnyrnyg]

My only beef with the World Cup is that it's being presented as a potential replacement for the Olympic tournament. If this comes to pass, it's a pretty bold move by a league that has provided barely 50% of the talent present in the past two olympics.

However, if they leave the sport's pinnacle international tournament alone (a view that's btw shared by majority of the NHL players), I honestly don't care even if they turn the World Cup into an annual event. It's not like there's no room for it. But it should only add to the sport as a whole, not detract anything from it.

barely 50% of the talent? Please. What was the percent for the big 6 countries? As if people were tuning in to see Norway, Austria, Slovenia, Switzerland, and Austria. Then again, if the NHL is providing BARELY 50% of the talent, then the tournament should be fine without the NHL, shouldn't it?

 

[FiLe]

barely 50% of the talent? Please. What was the percent for the big 6 countries? As if people were tuning in to see Norway, Austria, Slovenia, Switzerland, and Austria. Then again, if the NHL is providing BARELY 50% of the talent, then the tournament should be fine without the NHL, shouldn't it?

Big six? About 80.

And mocking the relevance of lesser countries is no argument, because the situation is the same in every sport. No matter the venue, no matter the tournament, the participants with a realistic shot at winning can be counted with single digits. Such are things when national teams are involved.

Let's say that I believe an olympic tournament without NHLers would still be hockey worth watching. And I genuinely pity the poor fools who think that isn't the case with everything that does not involve the NHLers. But the ideal solution would obviously be the NHL cooperating with the rest of the hockey-playing world to provide the best tournament possible. Because neither the rest of the world nor the NHL can do it alone.

 

[sandysan]

Big six? About 80.

And mocking the relevance of lesser countries is no argument, because the situation is the same in every sport. No matter the venue, no matter the tournament, the participants with a realistic shot at winning can be counted with single digits. Such are things when national teams are involved.

Let's say that I believe an olympic tournament without NHLers would still be hockey worth watching. And I genuinely pity the poor fools who think that isn't the case with everything that does not involve the NHLers. But the ideal solution would obviously be the NHL cooperating with the rest of the hockey-playing world to provide the best tournament possible. Because neither the rest of the world nor the NHL can do it alone.

you are almost certainly going to get a chance to test your hypothesis when the nhl doesnt go to korea and the olympic gold hockey ( played under those illustriuous 5 rings) looks like a beer league pickup game where some guys started the victory celebration a little early.

If you really REALLY like olympic hockey, what you want is for the next olympics to be sans the NHL AND a disaterous flop. Like ishtar level bad. Because that is the only way the IOC will be compelled to do the right and just thing and start compensating the players upon whose backs they get fat. If nbc ( who owns the american broadcast rights) sees that no one is going to watch a bunch of no namers fumble around for the puck, the fact that they are the broadcaster for both the olympics and the nhl going forward means that someone, sommewhere is likely to put up some dough.

I suspect that the owners and the players might buy into the " olympics are special" idea and might chose to be less compensated to participate in the olympics. If the ioc sticks to its guns and says no money for THE draw then nhl participation in the olympics is DONE, unless its in NA where the NHL gets granted, for the first time, the ability to use olympic footage to promote the shield.

so if you like the olympics, hope the next winter games and the next world cup are both dumpster fires. Some people seem to have no problem hoping for the latter and we will see. but if the world cup is a success, EVEN if its a local or regional success, then there is no reason the nhl players should turn their noses at the money they could make and slide it all over to the ioc for not going a GD thing.

 

[sandysan]

Hah. If the NHL really has all the necessary talent to organize a proper international tournament, what are teams like the Leftovers and YoungStarz doing in this upcoming show then?

The very evidence showing that your argument is a load of crock is right under your eyes. The participants in international competitions are national teams. If the NHL really had all the pieces required to organize a proper event that rivals the Olympics, they would have no issues drawing enough proper NTs from the contracts they control.

But they don't. So they've no business acting like a global body of hockey.

and, by their own admission, the next time they will.

and if you are a fan of parity, team leftover europe will be more talented because we wont have to see a nhl star from a country that is poorly represented in the NHL take the entire load on his back or watch him set up guys who gut fish for a true living and hope for the best.

 

[FiLe]

you are almost certainly going to get a chance to test your hypothesis when the nhl doesnt go to korea and the olympic gold hockey ( played under those illustriuous 5 rings) looks like a beer league pickup game where some guys started the victory celebration a little early.

If you really REALLY like olympic hockey, what you want is for the next olympics to be sans the NHL AND a disaterous flop. Like ishtar level bad. Because that is the only way the IOC will be compelled to do the right and just thing and start compensating the players upon whose backs they get fat. If nbc ( who owns the american broadcast rights) sees that no one is going to watch a bunch of no namers fumble around for the puck, the fact that they are the broadcaster for both the olympics and the nhl going forward means that someone, sommewhere is likely to put up some dough.

What I really don't get why someone who (probably) is simply a viewer and not an owner would defend the owners' rights to their money so vehemently.

Because as a viewer, the only thing you should hope for is the best tournament possible, no matter who ends up getting the profit. It's not going to be you either way. And the best way to get the best tournament possible is for the NHL to cooperate with the IIHF and the rest of the leagues of the world to set up one.

Of course, if you are someone who gets kicks out of making other people feel like crap for hoping to see more of the thing they enjoy, then carry on by all means...

and if you are a fan of parity, team leftover europe will be more talented because we wont have to see a nhl star from a country that is poorly represented in the NHL take the entire load on his back or watch him set up guys who gut fish for a true living and hope for the best.

Frick the parity. The lack of it has never been an issue in international sports, but I guess I can't expect someone who's never seen the world outside his own precious league to get that.

And those "fish-gutters" actually beat the odds in the last olympics and made it to the QF. And that was far more exhilirating to watch than watching this millionaire all-star team figure skate will ever be.

And I dare you to go and say that out loud in a bar in Ljubljana.

 

[sandysan]

What I really don't get why someone who (probably) is simply a viewer and not an owner would defend the owners' rights to their money so vehemently.

Because as a viewer, the only thing you should hope for is the best tournament possible, no matter who ends up getting the profit. It's not going to be you either way. And the best way to get the best tournament possible is for the NHL to cooperate with the IIHF and the rest of the leagues of the world to set up one.

Of course, if you are someone who gets kicks out of making other people feel like crap for hoping to see more of the thing they enjoy, then carry on by all means...

Frick the parity. The lack of it has never been an issue in international sports, but I guess I can't expect someone who's never seen the world outside his own precious league to get that.

And those "fish-gutters" actually beat the odds in the last olympics and made it to the QF. And that was far more exhilirating to watch than watching this millionaire all-star team figure skate will ever be.

And I dare you to go and say that out loud in a bar in Ljubljana.

[Mod]

I 'm for this because I beleive in fairness. I think that the players should be paid for the risks that they uniquely are taking. What the HELL has the IOC EVER done to promote hockey ? Zip. They didnt seem to mind looking away as pros from certain countries beat up on college kids for decades and they certainly dont mind cashing those broadcast right checks when the clear jewel of the team sport section for the winter olympics is largely, if not exclusively driven by NHL talent.

and there is no rationalization ( other than wanting to be a soccer wannabe) that the NHL should cooperate with the IIHF. Screw the IIHF, they haven't done crap either.

and I am looking for best on best tournaments which is why no one gives a crap about the world shampionships that are assumbled at the last moment with ANY willing NHL talent that didnt make the nhl playoffs. The olympics were great, but the world cup which will be olympics lite is good enough for now because I dont think that the 5 rings somehow makes everything they touch magical. its WAY better than the world shampionships.

you seem to think that the IIHF is some superpowerful over arching federation that is bigger than the NHL. It's not. And more importantly, the NHL needs the IIHF a whole hell of a lot less than the IIHF needs the nhl. The nhl can, and should, tell the iihf to go pound sand and if they don't like it they can have all of the international tournaments they want, mabey even the fish gutters will get a chance to ice a team to play in front of empty arenas for another championship that no one cares a whit about.

 

[FiLe]

I 'm for this because I beleive in fairness. I think that the players should be paid for the risks that they uniquely are taking. What the HELL has the IOC EVER done to promote hockey ? Zip. They didnt seem to mind looking away as pros from certain countries beat up on college kids for decades and they certainly dont mind cashing those broadcast right checks when the clear jewel of the team sport section for the winter olympics is largely, if not exclusively driven by NHL talent.

If the main stars of this show, namely the players, have no issue with this and don't think it's unfair, you're defending something that needs no defending and nobody's asked to you defend.

and there is no rationalization ( other than wanting to be a soccer wannabe) that the NHL should cooperate with the IIHF. Screw the IIHF, they haven't done crap either.

Except organizing international tournaments where various national federations get to use whatever players they wish for to build what they believe is the best possible team, as opposed to the NHL which is trying to rig things in a way that restricts the feds from picking the teams they'd pick if they had a free rein about it.

and I am looking for best on best tournaments which is why no one gives a crap about the world shampionships that are assumbled at the last moment with ANY willing NHL talent that didnt make the nhl playoffs. The olympics were great, but the world cup which will be olympics lite is good enough for now because I dont think that the 5 rings somehow makes everything they touch magical. its WAY better than the world shampionships.

you seem to think that the IIHF is some superpowerful over arching federation that is bigger than the NHL. It's not. And more importantly, the NHL needs the IIHF a whole hell of a lot less than the IIHF needs the nhl. The nhl can, and should, tell the iihf to go pound sand and if they don't like it they can have all of the international tournaments they want, mabey even the fish gutters will get a chance to ice a team to play in front of empty arenas for another championship that no one cares a whit about.

For someone who doesn't seem to care about the WHC you sure seem to enjoy bashing the tournament. Or is it because you actually enjoy bashing the people who enjoy it? Because there are people like that, and people who care about it, even in its current form, no matter what childish nicknames for it you come up with.

Here's the thing: Let us enjoy the things we enjoy and we let you enjoy the things you enjoy. Unless, of course, the thing you enjoy is acting in an aggravating manner in the Internet. And in case being a person of ill repute is not something you aspire to be, a friendly bit of advice: Work with your delivery a bit. Because it's real easy to mistake you for one.

(If your answer to this is now that you don't care about what you seem like, you've just proved that you actually are one. QED.)

 

[stv11]

This thread has gone off topic a long time ago and nothing new comes out of it. Time to close.