Ideas and suggestions for a true World Cup

[habsrule4eva3089]

The problem is americans don't have a single comprehension for international sports and an international setting.

The nhl is an american league run by americans for americans, that's sole goal is to build it in one country, what other view point would fans of that league have. For goodness sakes they might give a team in usa before going to Quebec, how ridiculous is that.

It's surrounded by two idiotic sports that are not international in nature like american baseball (no it's not international when it's usa and it's puppet states) and football, and the one that's global in basketball is rarely copied when their ideas of growing the game are fascinating.

Hockey is the one unique global entity that has a identify in so many countries because of our game being a winter sport. They can try all they want,but tbjs international tournament will never mean anything to Hockey fans around the World, let alone a growth model for our game across this planet. Hold it in Europe all they want, no one will still care.

Worlds and Olympics will always be the only tournament of significance. Thank goodness.

We'll talk when this tournament can hit 1 billion cumulative viewers Worldwide like the Worlds does. But let's be honest, they'll be lucky to get 10 million in Canada for one game for this silly cash grab.

 

[sandysan]

The problem is americans don't have a single comprehension for international sports and an international setting.

The nhl is an american league run by americans for americans, that's sole goal is to build it in one country, what other view point would fans of that league have. For goodness sakes they might give a team in usa before going to Quebec, how ridiculous is that.

It's surrounded by two idiotic sports that are not international in nature like american baseball (no it's not international when it's usa and it's puppet states) and football, and the one that's global in basketball is rarely copied when their ideas of growing the game are fascinating.

Hockey is the one unique global entity that has a identify in so many countries because of our game being a winter sport. They can try all they want,but tbjs international tournament will never mean anything to Hockey fans around the World, let alone a growth model for our game across this planet. Hold it in Europe all they want, no one will still care.

Worlds and Olympics will always be the only tournament of significance. Thank goodness.

We'll talk when this tournament can hit 1 billion cumulative viewers Worldwide like the Worlds does. But let's be honest, they'll be lucky to get 10 million in Canada for one game for this silly cash grab.

the best of the rest tournament known as the world hockey shampionships are a significant tournament ? Really ? Since when ?

but sure assume that its the north americans that " dont understand international sport" We understand it plenty and have decided that looking outside of talent, we don't need to keep fassel rolling in mustache wax and we can have our own tournament with the best collection of talent outside of the olympics by a mile.

We might not understand " international tournaments" in the sense that there is not a whole lot of appeal to cheer for the guy who drove you to the arena as he straps them on to play is some no meaning tourney against a bunch of other guys with other real jobs.

Small fish, small pond = meh. You can gussy it up all you want, get your supporters, sing dance, shoot of fireworks, throw in some needless nationalism its still doesnt change the quality of the game.

 

[FiLe]

the best of the rest tournament known as the world hockey shampionships are a significant tournament ? Really ? Since when ?

Best of the "rest"? "Rest" compared to what? The NHL playoffs?

Just FYI, they don't have all the World's best players year in year out either. For example, I don't remember seeing Crosby there last spring.

 

[sandysan]

Best of the "rest"? "Rest" compared to what? The NHL playoffs?

Just FYI, they don't have all the World's best players year in year out either. For example, I don't remember seeing Crosby there last spring.

rest compared to the concurrently playing best and deepest league on the planet. so yes compared to the nhl playoffs.

and its funny you think that a league, where team success matters, means that the best players will be represented in the playoffs. where did you get such an idea ?

and I think its great that crosby and some friends can go over there on 2- 3 days notice and dominate a tournament. But win lose or draw, the talent at the world championships is decidely lower than what will be on display at the world cup, which although its not the olympics, its a hell of a lot closer than the world shampionships.

 

[FiLe]

rest compared to the concurrently playing best and deepest league on the planet. so yes compared to the nhl playoffs.

and its funny you think that a league, where team success matters, means that the best players will be represented in the playoffs. where did you get such an idea ?

and I think its great that crosby and some friends can go over there on 2- 3 days notice and dominate a tournament. But win lose or draw, the talent at the world championships is decidely lower than what will be on display at the world cup, which although its not the olympics, its a hell of a lot closer than the world shampionships.

I take it you've never been to worlds, have you? I have, multiple times. Great people in the rafters, great fun. I think it's a treat for any player to be playing in front of a crowd like that.

Now, my experiences of the NHL playoffs are a bit more limited. Which means I can't say I can tell with full accuracy what kind of people go to those games. I've only had the pleasure to converse with a just a scant handful.

But if the rest are like that... I feel sorry for the players.

 

[1Gold Standard]

I take it you've never been to worlds, have you? I have, multiple times. Great people in the rafters, great fun. I think it's a treat for any player to be playing in front of a crowd like that.

Now, my experiences of the NHL playoffs are a bit more limited. Which means I can't say I can tell with full accuracy what kind of people go to those games. I've only had the pleasure to converse with a just a scant handful.

But if the rest are like that... I feel sorry for the players.

I've been to 3 WHC. great fun

I've also been to 12 NHL playoff games. home team, away team and a quite a few with no particular rooting interest other than I managed to score tics.

NHL playoff fan experience + hockey >>>>>>>>>WHC. It's not even close really. And I was in attendance for a Canadian gold medal performance in 07.

having said that, I'm not a fan of this particular NHL format World Cup and I won't be watching it. I hope we get a real World Cup in 2020 and continued NHL participation in the Olympics. sadly, I'm not optimistic that either will happen.

 

[habsrule4eva3089]

Attending nhl playoff games is not really an experience unless you watch Hockey in Canada. From the arena's I've been in the States nothing sticks out whatsoever playoff time.

Worlds, my goodness, I wish I could go everywhere. People from across the planet coming together for the love of the game, it's a party like no other. I don't even think the Olympics is as big as a Worldwide party as the World Championships. It's a experience every ''Hockey fan'' must experience in their lifetime.

Watching with Europeans and Russians is way more fun then sitting in arena's in North America where there's no really no atmosphere with people glued to their phones. It really hit home when I took a friend from Switzerland to the Bell Centre for a Habs game and for all she's heard about the Montreal vibe, the atmosphere was pure s*hit compared to anything in Switzerland.

nhl prices will always ruin the atmosphere in Canada, it's only really targeted to really rich people to attend many games at the lowerbowl and therefore it's really horrible crowd in most arena's.

The sheer interaction with people from across the World is really fun, you learn about the game across the globe, whereas the nhl game is I mean, people treat the game as a world war, I don't know, I love this game for other reasons so maybe it's just me.

 

[JackSlater]

There really is no need to care about who organizes the tournament. What matters is how good the product is. Who puts it on (and who profits) is for the bureaucrats to fight over. Unfortunately the NHL has lost its mind when it comes to this tournament. All it has to do is look at some past editions of this very tournament to see how the tournament should be run.

 

[sandysan]

I take it you've never been to worlds, have you? I have, multiple times. Great people in the rafters, great fun. I think it's a treat for any player to be playing in front of a crowd like that.

Now, my experiences of the NHL playoffs are a bit more limited. Which means I can't say I can tell with full accuracy what kind of people go to those games. I've only had the pleasure to converse with a just a scant handful.

But if the rest are like that... I feel sorry for the players.

its such a treat for the players that they would sacrifice pretty much anything to NOT be there and be one of the 16 teams left still playing.

why would you feel sorry for the players ? If you asked the players, of any nationality, rank these three in terms of importance " stanley cup/ olympic gold/ world championship, the WC's finish fourth in a three choice race.

the "atmosphere" of the games might be great, its still a bunch of guys thrown together at the literal last minute based on availability playing other guys from the NHL in a similar situation with the extra roster spots filled by decidedly far less talented players.

I'm sure the players want to win, I'm sure they play hard. I'm also sure that any tournament that expressly prevents a major percentage of the best players on the planet from representing their country is gonna be highly suspect, hence best of the rest.

 

[FiLe]

And now... I feel even more sorry for them.

 

[sandysan]

And now... I feel even more sorry for them.

It must be nice to actually enjoy the whc, cause im sure you get to hear " gpod tickets are still available" a whole lot.

The tournament has zero relative appeal in NA going head to head with the stanley cup playoffs. Zero. But I glad you seem to like a tournament of hastily thrown togethet nhl players, has beens and never weres over a best of 7 all out war betwren two teams who largely played 82 games together because not enough of them look like you for your liking.

 

[FiLe]

Nah, it's not the players, really. It's the lack of kinship with the rest of the audience. The risk of running into all kinds of lowlifes and other undesirables seems a bit too high to my liking.

At least the guys in the rink get paid pretty well for playing in front of 'em.

 

[ForumNamePending]

if the notion is, that european fans will watch whatever league their best homegrown players are in, why does the NHL " need" europe ? They already have the best talent, and if the eyes will follow the talent why do they need to make concessions to europeans who want nothing but a recreation of fifa and the soccer model ?

If they "need" Europe or not will depend on what they want the WCup to be. If the NHL(PA) are fine with the tournament being something with limited significance outside of Canada, and they very well could be perfectly fine with that, they can continue to run it like they always have. Even then, it would appear plenty of people in this part of the world don't seem to like what the NHL(PA) has put together for '16 and don't have a lot of faith in the tournament moving forward.

As for nationalism, I'm GLAD the nhl lacks it. I appreciate all that has been done by those who have put on the maple leaf at international tournaments, but as for the NHL I couldn't care less who wears the CH so long as they are good. I'm from the same small town as a nhl all star and I HATE that guy as a player ( I've never met him, he could be lovely). The captain of the habs has been american, and a FINN and the notion that we should care less about the habs because they fail to represent their fans the way we would like lumps us in with the same crazies who worry about whether the habs coach speaks perfect french or not. Thanks but no thanks.

If you are only watching hockey to see certain players based on what's in their passports, then I have no problem saying that your fandom of the game is 100% coincidental. And to suggest that these types of people should get more say in how the game goes forward is a bad idea on so many levels.

Correct, Canadian NHL fans generally don't care about the passport the players on their favourite team carry as long as the players help the team win (or lose). Most fans in Canada (and the US) develop their fandom via the local(ish) team or the team that is most accessible on TV. When the nearest NHL team is at least 5000+km, 5 time zones, and an entire ocean away, people are going develop a connection or interest with a team (or league) in a different way. Given all this, I fail to see what is so hard to grasp, or what's so terrible, about connections with a given team (and/or general interest in a league) being developed because the roster includes a player(s), that due to coming up through their local league or playing for their "home" team internationally, they are familiar with.

With all that said, we actually do see glimpses of at least some Canadians caring about whether the passport says Canada or not. The first intermission of the league's flagship broadcast is at times a pretty good example. There was also some hand wringing back in the 90's when the % of Canadians in the NHL was in a steady decline.

Finally, like I said up thread, interest a specific country takes in a something being driven by the involvement and success of talent from that country isn't a form of "nationalism" unique to Europe or European hockey fans... We've seen the same thing in Canada/from Canadians.

 

[sandysan]

Nah, it's not the players, really. It's the lack of kinship with the rest of the audience. The risk of running into all kinds of lowlifes and other undesirables seems a bit too high to my liking.

At least the guys in the rink get paid pretty well for playing in front of 'em.

You can get that kinship lots of places. If that is your primary draw, then I reiterate your hockey fandom is 100% coincidental.

And Ive been in hostile arenas, no big deal. If you want to spend three hours of kinship and singing and dancing there are special places for this, they are called clubs and or bars.

 

[mattihp]

From the thread about Quebec in the world champs:

I have always wondered about this. I would split up Ontario into Northern Ontario (Starting Ottawa, continuing NW) and take out the territories because there are barely any AHLers nvm NHLers. I would be cool to have some US states in there too.

Group A:
ATL
MA
QC
NY

Group B:
MI
MN
NON
SON

Group C:
BC
SK
MB
AB

That would make an awesome World Cup. Run with that instead. Perhaps two Euro teams as well, not nations.

 

[holyprime]

People from NA might care less what passport a player has (altough tbh, outside of foreigner status and playing style, no one cares here in europe either), but i have never seen as much brimborium about national anthems and the whole army-PR than in an NHL game. Anyway, i think the point was that international games matter more bc of the added significance of national rivalries, especially bc a lot of people only watch sport on that level (like that in football too, not half as many care for the swiss league than for the national team for instance).

I also don't understand the whole WHC hate. First of all, the teams aren't thrown together in last minute, they have a camp and friendlies before the tournament starts (they can also only add a certain amount of new players once they submitted roster). But more important, if only one more league would agree with all the others, it wouldn't have to be such a mess. But the owners of that league rather throw together a silly tournament that is played in pre season than sit together with the rest of the world and make the WHC more significant or morph it with the WC to a good best-on-best tourney.

That's what boggles the mind of us europeans, that the NHL even goes all the lengths to look silly, just to not have to cooperate with other entities to create smth worthwhile for all of us. Feels like a rich kid that rather plays alone than sharing some of his toys sometimes (doesnt mean IIHF is perfect).

It can't be that hard if even fifa can handle it with a herd of buffoons as execs while running a criminal outfit as main business.

 

[sandysan]

People from NA might care less what passport a player has (altough tbh, outside of foreigner status and playing style, no one cares here in europe either), but i have never seen as much brimborium about national anthems and the whole army-PR than in an NHL game. Anyway, i think the point was that international games matter more bc of the added significance of national rivalries, especially bc a lot of people only watch sport on that level (like that in football too, not half as many care for the swiss league than for the national team for instance).

I also don't understand the whole WHC hate. First of all, the teams aren't thrown together in last minute, they have a camp and friendlies before the tournament starts (they can also only add a certain amount of new players once they submitted roster). But more important, if only one more league would agree with all the others, it wouldn't have to be such a mess. But the owners of that league rather throw together a silly tournament that is played in pre season than sit together with the rest of the world and make the WHC more significant or morph it with the WC to a good best-on-best tourney.

That's what boggles the mind of us europeans, that the NHL even goes all the lengths to look silly, just to not have to cooperate with other entities to create smth worthwhile for all of us. Feels like a rich kid that rather plays alone than sharing some of his toys sometimes (doesnt mean IIHF is perfect).

It can't be that hard if even fifa can handle it with a herd of buffoons as execs while running a criminal outfit as main business.

the nhl is acting like "a rich kid that would rather alone than sharing some of his toys" because the people who think they are entitled to these toys NEVER put skin in the game.

The NHL is a PRIVATE FOR PROFIT league. Its job, as is the case for all other businesses, is TO MAKE MONEY. It's not to make friends. its not to make friends by showcasing the talent it has under contract to others who will revel in the tourney then go back to ignoring, or demeaning the NHL.

The NHL knows whose is buttering their bread, and it aint the IIHF no those who feel entitled to see the worlds best hockey talent for free.

and thanks for the statement that the IIHF isnt perfect, I needed a good laugh.

and let me get this straight, you thik that its a reasonable accomodation that the NHL interrupt or move the stanley cup playoffs to a bunch of people who wont commit a dime to the development of the NHL so that the IIHF can look, slightly less ineffectual or incompetent ?

pass.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Nah, it's not the players, really. It's the lack of kinship with the rest of the audience. The risk of running into all kinds of lowlifes and other undesirables seems a bit too high to my liking.

At least the guys in the rink get paid pretty well for playing in front of 'em.

So, people who go to NHL games are lowlifes and undesirables?

 

[Reindl87]

Ideal Format:
- IHF sanctioned = real international tournament:
- takes place every four years (Takes place in years when there are no major Soccer tournaments;or olympics so for example: 17, 21,25......)
- Teams have a decent amount of time to prepare and train (like in the Soccer world Cup; Training camps of arround 4weeks)
- Tournament lasts for about 4 weeks

Primiraly Round:
20 competitors

4 Groups with 5 Teams each: Round Robin System x 2 (so everybody Plays each other twice, 8 games per Team)
Group winners + the best ranked 2nd place advance to the quarter finals automatically

Qualification round:

Teams that finished 2nd, 3r + the best 4th. place play single game eliminators for the missing 4 quaterfinal spots:

Medals round: Quaterfinal + Semifinal + Final

Soccer Eurocup style Format:
There are always 2 games per matchup. The Team that wins on Aggregate of those two matchup advances.

 

[Zero Pucks Given]

Just replace the 2 joke teams with real national teams, have the IIHF be involved in some way, and this tournament is otherwise legit.

Ideal Format:
- IHF sanctioned = real international tournament:
- takes place every four years (Takes place in years when there are no major Soccer tournaments;or olympics so for example: 17, 21,25......)
- Teams have a decent amount of time to prepare and train (like in the Soccer world Cup; Training camps of arround 4weeks)
- Tournament lasts for about 4 weeks

Primiraly Round:
20 competitors

4 Groups with 5 Teams each: Round Robin System x 2 (so everybody Plays each other twice, 8 games per Team)
Group winners + the best ranked 2nd place advance to the quarter finals automatically

Qualification round:

Teams that finished 2nd, 3r + the best 4th. place play single game eliminators for the missing 4 quaterfinal spots:

Medals round: Quaterfinal + Semifinal + Final

Soccer Eurocup style Format:
There are always 2 games per matchup. The Team that wins on Aggregate of those two matchup advances.

Oh, god no. PLEASE no aggregate scoring.

 

[JackSlater]

Medals round: Quaterfinal + Semifinal + Final

Soccer Eurocup style Format:
There are always 2 games per matchup. The Team that wins on Aggregate of those two matchup advances.

That's horrible. Best of three or a one off match. No need for hockey to emulate bad parts of soccer.

 

[Zine]

the nhl is acting like "a rich kid that would rather alone than sharing some of his toys" because the people who think they are entitled to these toys NEVER put skin in the game.

The NHL is a PRIVATE FOR PROFIT league. Its job, as is the case for all other businesses, is TO MAKE MONEY. It's not to make friends. its not to make friends by showcasing the talent it has under contract to others who will revel in the tourney then go back to ignoring, or demeaning the NHL.

The NHL knows whose is buttering their bread, and it aint the IIHF no those who feel entitled to see the worlds best hockey talent for free.

and thanks for the statement that the IIHF isnt perfect, I needed a good laugh.

and let me get this straight, you thik that its a reasonable accomodation that the NHL interrupt or move the stanley cup playoffs to a bunch of people who wont commit a dime to the development of the NHL so that the IIHF can look, slightly less ineffectual or incompetent ?

pass.

You do realize the IIHF is made up of the federations that develop the NHL's talent, right?

Of course the NHL is a business and its job is to make money. However Bettman and co. are acting like a logging company that does very little to care for the forest were it receives its resources. But hey, why give back to the forest?...the company gets nothing out of it, right? Damn entitled forest.

In light of this, is 2 weeks every 4 years (olympics) really too much to ask? Is working with the IIHF to get more NHLers into the WC really too much to ask?....especially considering a successful WC goes a long way in funding the federations that churn out eventual NHL talent?

Your quote above actually exemplifies everything that is greedy, unscrupulous and short-sighted with the NHL's position.

 

[FiLe]

So, people who go to NHL games are lowlifes and undesirables?

Not exclusively. But there is some evidence that the risk of running into some seems quite a bit higher when compared to an international game.

 

[Loffer]

Not exclusively. But there is some evidence that the risk of running into some seems quite a bit higher when compared to an international game.

I'm not sure I follow you here, mr. File. (And don't be offended by my harmless and inoffensive, i.e. only playful, remark on the prospect board.) - I have always considered the NHL game audience wise "down-tuned", "well-off", "civilized" and a bit "detached" or should I say only they look like "paying customers" just enjoying jolly good time. No "ultras", so to speak. The American sports culture just doesn't know such things like ultra fans, I guess.


But I might have misunderstood you here: Lowlifes? Undesirables? What or who are they?

 

[Loffer]

That's horrible. Best of three or a one off match. No need for hockey to emulate bad parts of soccer.

One minor corrections if you may. No need for hockey to emulate soccer or any spesific part of it, at least, not just for the sake of it.

But those parts are part and parcel of soccer, and no "bad" parts of it. They only become "bad" or unbecoming when transferred directly and uncritically to hockey.