I'd give Keefe till the 20 game mark

[ITM]

Because that's what a minority of this fan base does.

Like immediately wanting to fire Dubas for trading a 6'9" AHL player, for a serviceable NHL right shot Dman........because......size?

That's an abstraction. There may be some who independent of the team's recent history just became fans and want that because of something so incidental to the team's ultimate goal.

For myself, I didn't want him fired (and I've been a glass half-full member here) at all, but took exception to the idea of moving Douglas having not given him a trial as a 4C. Could we have gotten Timmins with another asset that would be just as cost effective?

Small potatoes. Timmins is fine right now. Perhaps he holds up. Douglas was always an AHLer, moving on...

Think of our coaching situation this way. You can choose between Jack Campbell or Matt Murray as you're investment. Our history with Campbell was, statistically speaking, very good. We had no history with Matt Murray but knew he won Cups and was instrumental in doing so.

Hindsight afoot, we know Dubas made a very good decision. At the time, if only from a qualitative standpoint, Campbell wouldn't have been a bad decision. Murray was and is the better decision for a number of reasons that are now clearer than when we were faced with the difficult decision of letting go one singularly important position to be filled by the then as yet unknown (as a Leaf) asset.

Now...Is it so dissimilar, 20 games, let's even say 20 straight wins in, to posit that given the option of Keefe vs Trotz, it's reasonable that the better decision is always going to be Barry Trotz, given all the facts of this club's overall performance?

 

[therealkoho]

Best new thing I did not know

Matthews makes trades

Never change LeaFland, never change

 

[therealkoho]

Hard working teams will always be in the fight. Late 90's and early 2000's leaf teams under Pat Quinn had the fight. Not much skill, but Quinn got the best out of the guys who were willing to work hard.

I enjoy watching the high end skill but I enjoy hard nosed hard working hockey more.

If only this Leafs team had their very own

Lanny Bohonos

 

[therealkoho]

holy crap- how many times do you have to be told, am/mm will never be split up because of mm and daddy.

And you sir are wrong

 

[Racer88]

Not whining?

No winning

 

[Stephen]

I stand by all the extreme negativity during the Leafs early season struggles at the time. The fact that they're able to pull a complete 180 since and prove the doubts to be wrong has been a pleasure to watch. But it did take a dramatic course change.

 

[Ciao]

. . . Think of our coaching situation this way. You can choose between Jack Campbell or Matt Murray as you're investment. Our history with Campbell was, statistically speaking, very good. We had no history with Matt Murray but knew he won Cups and was instrumental in doing so.

Hindsight afoot, we know Dubas made a very good decision. At the time, if only from a qualitative standpoint, Campbell wouldn't have been a bad decision. Murray was and is the better decision for a number of reasons that are now clearer than when we were faced with the difficult decision of letting go one singularly important position to be filled by the then as yet unknown (as a Leaf) asset.

Now...Is it so dissimilar, 20 games, let's even say 20 straight wins in, to posit that given the option of Keefe vs Trotz, it's reasonable that the better decision is always going to be Barry Trotz, given all the facts of this club's overall performance?

I would rather think of the Leafs' coaching situation this way:

Sheldon Keefe has the highest winning percentage of any head coach in Toronto Maple Leafs history, save and except for two interludes of ten and 15 games each by King Clancy in 1966 and 1972 -- and the one-game 1-0-0 record of Conn Smythe as an interim coach in 1931. That's no mean feat.

Keefe's career win percentage of .678 at the end of last season is better than Barry Trotz' best-ever single season win percentage of .667 with the 2017-18 Stanley Cup champion Washington Capitals. Forget about the great work that Trotz did with the expansion Nashville Predators because anyone would have low win percentage with an expansion team under the pre-Vegas rules, Keefe's record with Toronto is better than that of Trotz with either the Capitals or the New York Islanders.

Like Trotz, Keefe won the Calder Cup as a coach before reaching the NHL.

Unlike Trotz, he is 18 years younger -- 42 y.o. as opposed to 60 y.o.

Trotz reached the finals and won the Stanley Cup once in his 23-year career. It took him 19 years with two franchises to get to his first and only Stanley Cup finals appearance.

Given their overall performance, I would take the younger coach on the rise, especially where the older one has said he doesn't want to coach this year.

 

[Dreakmur]

I would rather think of the Leafs' coaching situation this way:

Sheldon Keefe has the highest winning percentage of any head coach in Toronto Maple Leafs history, save and except for two interludes of ten and 15 games each by King Clancy in 1966 and 1972 -- and the one-game 1-0-0 record of Conn Smythe as an interim coach in 1931. That's no mean feat.

Keefe's career win percentage of .678 at the end of last season is better than Barry Trotz' best-ever single season win percentage of .667 with the 2017-18 Stanley Cup champion Washington Capitals. Forget about the great work that Trotz did with the expansion Nashville Predators because anyone would have low win percentage with an expansion team under the pre-Vegas rules, Keefe's record with Toronto is better than that of Trotz with either the Capitals or the New York Islanders.

Like Trotz, Keefe won the Calder Cup as a coach before reaching the NHL.

Unlike Trotz, he is 18 years younger -- 42 y.o. as opposed to 60 y.o.

Trotz reached the finals and won the Stanley Cup once in his 23-year career. It took him 19 years with two franchises to get to his first and only Stanley Cup finals appearance.

Given their overall performance, I would take the younger coach on the rise, especially where the older one has said he doesn't want to coach this year.

Trotz spent 15 years with an expansion team that ran a budget lower than the cap for his entire tenure.

Keefe, on the other hand, took over the reigns of a team coming off back to back 100 point seasons, with the most expensive support system in the league.

Their records are not even comparable.

 

[ITM]

I would rather think of the Leafs' coaching situation this way:

Sheldon Keefe has the highest winning percentage of any head coach in Toronto Maple Leafs history, save and except for two interludes of ten and 15 games each by King Clancy in 1966 and 1972 -- and the one-game 1-0-0 record of Conn Smythe as an interim coach in 1931. That's no mean feat.

Keefe's career win percentage of .678 at the end of last season is better than Barry Trotz' best-ever single season win percentage of .667 with the 2017-18 Stanley Cup champion Washington Capitals. Forget about the great work that Trotz did with the expansion Nashville Predators because anyone would have low win percentage with an expansion team under the pre-Vegas rules, Keefe's record with Toronto is better than that of Trotz with either the Capitals or the New York Islanders.

Like Trotz, Keefe won the Calder Cup as a coach before reaching the NHL.

Unlike Trotz, he is 18 years younger -- 42 y.o. as opposed to 60 y.o.

Trotz reached the finals and won the Stanley Cup once in his 23-year career. It took him 19 years with two franchises to get to his first and only Stanley Cup finals appearance.

Given their overall performance, I would take the younger coach on the rise, especially where the older one has said he doesn't want to coach this year.

Scotty Bowman set a regular season record for most wins with 62 during the '95-'96 season. The following year his Wings won 38 games.

What separates those two full seasons (regular and playoffs) isn't the the difference of 24 regular season wins. It's the Cup Detroit won the year after they set the regular season wins record.

If 90 year old Scotty Bowman announced he wanted to coach and I was Brendan Shanahan, I announce Jan. 1st that Scotty Bowman is the head coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs. He'll make three decisions more than Keefe will that would be the difference between the first round and two or three.

Age in the comparison between Trotz and Keefe is entirely inconsequential. Keefe's regular season record is meaningless in the comparison. Substitute Quenneville for Trotz if you like, the idea, like the Campbell - Murray comparison, is that while it's reasonable to place faith in a coach of a certain pedigree, like a seasoned goalie, the smart money is on all the intangibles plus experience and accomplishment if it's available.

I didn't think that would be as controversial an idea as it seems to be here.

 

[Stephen]

Scotty Bowman set a regular season record for most wins with 62 during the '95-'96 season. The following year his Wings won 38 games.

What separates those two full seasons (regular and playoffs) isn't the the difference of 24 regular season wins. It's the Cup Detroit won the year after they set the regular season wins record.

If 90 year old Scotty Bowman announced he wanted to coach and I was Brendan Shanahan, I announce Jan. 1st that Scotty Bowman is the head coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs. He'll make three decisions more than Keefe will that would be the difference between the first round and two or three.

Age in the comparison between Trotz and Keefe is entirely inconsequential. Keefe's regular season record is meaningless in the comparison. Substitute Quenneville for Trotz if you like, the idea, like the Campbell - Murray comparison, is that while it's reasonable to place faith in a coach of a certain pedigree, like a seasoned goalie, the smart money is on all the intangibles plus experience and accomplishment if it's available.

I didn't think that would be as controversial an idea as it seems to be here.

The issue I would have with Trotz is the fact that he's a name brand that may not fit with the team he would be given in Toronto in that hypothetical scenario. This Leafs team has gotten a lot of mediocre results over the past 15 years courting GM's and coaches who recently won cups under different circumstances, and none of them really translated in Toronto because the personnel wasn't the same. Brian Burke, Randy Carlyle, Mike Babcock.

Keefe has done a great job weathering the injury storm and really settled things down after the terrible start. It looked like he was having a personal meltdown, but that's all been resolved as far as we've seen over the past 1.5 months. Now the team is on a 2 game losing streak and it will be time to start up another winning streak, win this month and bank points.

 

[The Podium]

 

[Mess]

I agree with the complete different team and I have to say it looks promising.

In the past the Leafs with 3 X $11 players including the Rocket winner would sit in the top 3 offensively and believe and play pond hockey with a game plan that last goal wins and trying to win games 6-5 by outscoring their mistakes and prove "offense wins championships" ..

This year its a complete 180 turnaround and Leafs sitting 15th overall in Goals For, with all their offensive fire power.. In fact expansion Seattle in 2 less games played have more goals scored then the Leafs. With all the injuries to defense the Leafs have now decided to play a defense first attitude and "defense wins championships" .. However now then sit 2nd overall in goals against, due to their new focus, and it insulates their goalies better with limited shots and HDSC against.

Leafs are finally playing a style of game that is transferable to playoff success when the games get tighter and lower scoring, and Leafs are learning during the season how to play this style and also buying into "defense wins championships"..

 

[ChickenMcNugget]

I wish i could share the same optimism as all of you but I dont see a big step from last year. They are similar in standings as of last year. They have the same core, Same coaching style of relying entirely on core players. Sandin and Lili have stepped up but they will likely be back to low mins when players recover.

The only thing is that it looks like the backup situation is better with Samsonov but we have already seen this with the Andersen Campbell era.

It's hard to forget that this team with the same core has so many first round exits. However, its possible that they'll win the cup this year! Why? because they signed Giordano ? Murray is going to have a miracle year ?

I don't get it. I still cheer for the leafs but the pain still lingers as if the wound was left untreated.

 

[Jojalu]

I agree with the complete different team and I have to say it looks promising.

In the past the Leafs with 3 X $11 players including the Rocket winner would sit in the top 3 offensively and believe and play pond hockey with a game plan that last goal wins and trying to win games 6-5 by outscoring their mistakes and prove "offense wins championships" ..

This year its a complete 180 turnaround and Leafs sitting 15th overall in Goals For, with all their offensive fire power.. In fact expansion Seattle in 2 less games played have more goals scored then the Leafs. With all the injuries to defense the Leafs have now decided to play a defense first attitude and "defense wins championships" .. However now then sit 2nd overall in goals against, due to their new focus, and it insulates their goalies better with limited shots and HDSC against.

Leafs are finally playing a style of game that is transferable to playoff success when the games get tighter and lower scoring, and Leafs are learning during the season how to play this style and also buying into "defense wins championships"..

Pretty good analysis Mess.

Normally I like to poke at your takes, but Merry Christmas.

 

[Dekes For Days]

In the past the Leafs with 3 X $11 players including the Rocket winner would sit in the top 3 offensively and believe and play pond hockey with a game plan that last goal wins and trying to win games 6-5 by outscoring their mistakes and prove "offense wins championships" ..

Leafs never did that under Keefe. They just now have goaltending that matches the defensive excellence they've had for years.

 

[kb]

I wish i could share the same optimism as all of you but I dont see a big step from last year. They are similar in standings as of last year. They have the same core, Same coaching style of relying entirely on core players. Sandin and Lili have stepped up but they will likely be back to low mins when players recover.

The only thing is that it looks like the backup situation is better with Samsonov but we have already seen this with the Andersen Campbell era.

It's hard to forget that this team with the same core has so many first round exits. However, its possible that they'll win the cup this year! Why? because they signed Giordano ? Murray is going to have a miracle year ?

I don't get it. I still cheer for the leafs but the pain still lingers as if the wound was left untreated.

If people can't see the difference in the way they play and execute especially in the D play, then

A) they simply watch the standings, and not the games, or
B) they are being willfully obtuse.

This team has had their top 3 G down all at once, and then their top 3 D all down at once. And then look at the goaltending they have received from last year to this year. They are currently second in GAA.

Might be one of the sillier takes I have read on here.....

 

[SmoggyTwinkles]

I was a bit down on the team at the start of the season, especially *itch Marner and wondering if the team was imploding.....

But I was never worried because just watch the games....after all this time and all the failure, expect the worst and hope for the best.

Leafs are doing great at this point of the season. Murray and Samsonov look awesome to me.

Lili has been amazing (gotta get his jersey!)

I mean, we shouldn't be doing as well as we are but there it is.

We were blessed with Shanahan is all I'm going to say. Prior to that there was no hope, he came in and gave us a massive window to go somewhere, we haven't gone anywhere post-season though so hopefully that will happen sooner than later, but I'm not blind to the teams we've had to play in the first round and certain things that have happened.

I'm not gonna complain about this current team because I think I'm done worrying about it, I'll just watch and cheer them on.

 

[Jojalu]

If people can't see the difference in the way they play and execute especially in the D play, then

A) they simply watch the standings, and not the games, or
B) they are being willfully obtuse.

This team has had their top 3 G down all at once, and then their top 3 D all down at once. And then look at the goaltending they have received from last year to this year. They are currently second in GAA.

Might be one of the sillier takes I have read on here.....

There is no place for excuses in sports(or life) but the fact remains that the Leafs have been just a hair short of being on a very impressive run. 3 out of the past 4 years the team they have lost to has gone to the Finals.

I am not saying if the Leafs had won their fate would have seen that much success, but they have been knocking on the door for awhile.

No doubt their new identity will translate to further success.

 

[kb]

There is no place for excuses in sports(or life) but the fact remains that the Leafs have been just a hair short of being on a very impressive run. 3 out of the past 4 years the team they have lost to has gone to the Finals.

I am not saying if the Leafs had won their fate would have seen that much success, but they have been knocking on the door for awhile.

No doubt their new identity will translate to further success.

This is what people miss. Because they were 'oh so very close', no one could have faulted them if they ran it back hoping for another year of maturity and tinkering around the bottom of the lineup would be the missing piece.

However, they recognized that they had to play a different way to succeed in tight games, and have stepped up, bought in, and play that way. The tracking and swarming of the puck carriers by the forwards coming back is very impressive, and a far cry from the 'cheating for offense' mindset they would get into.

Makes it much easier to implement when you have 2 keepers who make the stops they are supposed to make (by and large).

 

[IceColdOx]

Who would have thought that Torts got it right about Keefe?

 

[Gary Nylund]

I wish i could share the same optimism as all of you but I dont see a big step from last year. They are similar in standings as of last year. They have the same core, Same coaching style of relying entirely on core players. Sandin and Lili have stepped up but they will likely be back to low mins when players recover.

The only thing is that it looks like the backup situation is better with Samsonov but we have already seen this with the Andersen Campbell era.

It's hard to forget that this team with the same core has so many first round exits. However, its possible that they'll win the cup this year! Why? because they signed Giordano ? Murray is going to have a miracle year ?

I don't get it. I still cheer for the leafs but the pain still lingers as if the wound was left untreated.

It's understandable that as you say, "the pain still lingers" and that's probably why as you say, "you don't get it".

This team has been among the top 5 or so cup contenders for a number of years now, so it's not like massive changes are required in order for the team to win and there's no reason they can't put it all together this season. I would only add that our goaltending situation looks to be improved to a much greater degree than as you put it, "the backup situation is better". We don't need anyone to have "a miracle year", we just need one goalie to play really well in the playoffs and ATM it's looks like we have not one, but two goalies, either of which could maybe get the job done.

GLG!!

 

[ChickenMcNugget]

If people can't see the difference in the way they play and execute especially in the D play, then

A) they simply watch the standings, and not the games, or
B) they are being willfully obtuse.

This team has had their top 3 G down all at once, and then their top 3 D all down at once. And then look at the goaltending they have received from last year to this year. They are currently second in GAA.

Might be one of the sillier takes I have read on here.....

Well of course i look at the standings and stats. If I watch the games i would likely absorb only what suits my narrative. For example i love Engvall so Im going to remember all the crispy passes and blocks and miss all the missed assignments. Its the same way for most. That is why its important to look at the stats as they represent the big picture objectively.

Their performance for the first 30 games has not been all that different from years past.

on a 95% confidence level this year is statistically not different at all from last year. I also did some high level review on other stats and nothing really stands out.

As i said i want to believe. I still cheer but its hard to be invested fully when the same core has lost so many times in the same way and the team is still putting on the same stats.

i guess maybe I am just silly lol.

 

[Ciao]

@ChickenMcNugget -- Yes, you are just silly if you value watching the stats over watching the actual games.

If that's what you like to do, then maybe Stock Ticker is your game and the stock market is your sport? Especially so if what you want to do is "invest" instead of just "enjoy".

This year, the Leafs are hard not to enjoy, if that’s what you were looking for. They don't demand any investment of you.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Their performance for the first 30 games has not been all that different from years past.

View attachment 626477

on a 95% confidence level this year is statistically not different at all from last year. I also did some high level review on other stats and nothing really stands out.

View attachment 626478

As i said i want to believe. I still cheer but its hard to be invested fully when the same core has lost so many times in the same way and the team is still putting on the same stats.

i guess maybe I am just silly lol.

What difference in the stats were you expecting to see? We've consistently been one of the best teams in the league. There's only so much you can improve on that.
The thing is, your assessment that we're not significantly different from the past couple years is not all that wrong. What's wrong is your assessment that we need to be to win.
By far the most important area to target was goaltending, and that's the area we have seen a significant improvement in compared to years past.

 

[Its not your fault]

I have no f***ing clue what is going on with AM and MM but they are doing absolutely nothing 5v5. Rielly playing like shit is helping things either. Whatever is going on with them it should cost Keefe his job

So what about now? 23 game point streak AM doing alright on defence. No Rielly.