I have serious concerns for next year (2023-24)

  • Xenforo Cloud will be upgrading us to version 2.3.5 on March 3rd at 12 AM GMT. This version has increased stability and fixes several bugs. We expect downtime for the duration of the update. The admin team will continue to work on existing issues, templates and upgrade all necessary available addons to minimize impact of this new version. Click Here for Updates
Good players sure, but the team is a playoff loser. I don't know where I can get these numbers easily and I'm too lazy to get my calculator out but if you were to compile our PTS% over the last 6 seasons, regular season vs playoffs, that would tell you all you need to know right there.

pt% as a team? No need to find stats, it is common sense, if you lose in the playoffs your pt% won't be good.

pt% for players? Tons drop off a lot. I think Crosby was a big one that stuck out and he is considered a good playoff performer.

For some, a sample size of 6 is not enough. Might take 4 more failures for them to admit this core is not going to get it done as a group.

They lost for sure, they are just over halfway there to the amount of times Washington's or Colorado's core lost.

I was fine with change, but the new GM isn't.
 
Good players sure, but the team is a playoff loser. I don't know where I can get these numbers easily and I'm too lazy to get my calculator out but if you were to compile our PTS% over the last 6 seasons, regular season vs playoffs, that would tell you all you need to know right there.
NHL.com

1693924221354.png
 
For some, a sample size of 6 is not enough. Might take 4 more failures for them to admit this core is not going to get it done as a group.
I'm pretty sure there is no number of failures that would be enough for some people, after all, there's no limit to the number of times you can get "out-goalied". ;)

pt% as a team? No need to find stats, it is common sense, if you lose in the playoffs your pt% won't be good.

pt% for players? Tons drop off a lot. I think Crosby was a big one that stuck out and he is considered a good playoff performer.


They lost for sure, they are just over halfway there to the amount of times Washington's or Colorado's core lost.

I was fine with change, but the new GM isn't.
PTS% for team of course.

Did WSH and COL really have stretches where they lost 7 out of 8 playoff series? Are you sure those teams had stretches that were so bad, that we're not even halfway there yet? Is this what we're down to now, desperately scouring the history books to find an example that we can point to and say - see we're not the worst of all-time, check out these losers?

Thank you sir, that's exactly what I was after. Seems like 44 games is a big enough number that it can't easily be dismissed because playoffs are a small sample size either.
 
PTS% for team of course.

Did WSH and COL really have stretches where they lost 7 out of 8 playoff series? Are you sure those teams had stretches that were so bad, that we're not even halfway there yet? Is this what we're down to now, desperately scouring the history books to find an example that we can point to and say - see we're not the worst of all-time, check out these losers?

Same amount of 2nd round wins as those teams.

Colorado missed the playoffs tons.

Washignton is a mix.

Is 1 series win now good?

Just pointing out the immense failure before winning it all of some teams.

People acting like playoff success is linear just need to look at the year before Tampa won.
 
Same amount of 2nd round wins as those teams.

Colorado missed the playoffs tons.

Washignton is a mix.

Is 1 series win now good?

Just pointing out the immense failure before winning it all of some teams.

People acting like playoff success is linear just need to look at the year before Tampa won.
Did Tampa do anything different after they lost to Columbus?
 
Same amount of 2nd round wins as those teams.

Colorado missed the playoffs tons.

Washignton is a mix.

Is 1 series win now good?

Just pointing out the immense failure before winning it all of some teams.

People acting like playoff success is linear just need to look at the year before Tampa won.
Based on the bolded, I guessing those teams did indeed have more playoff success then we've had. But since you want us to look as good as possible so to this end, you're dismissing 1st round wins as irrelevant.

That would be sweet now wouldn't it? We lose in the 1st round almost always, but if we pretend that that's irrelevant ...

If you actually believe this nonsense then fine. I think you know better and I suggest you try to be more objective if you expect to be taken seriously.
 
Based on the bolded, I guessing those teams did indeed have more playoff success then we've had. But since you want us to look as good as possible so to this end, you're dismissing 1st round wins as irrelevant.

That would be sweet now wouldn't it? We lose in the 1st round almost always, but if we pretend that that's irrelevant ...

If you actually believe this nonsense then fine. I think you know better and I suggest you try to be more objective if you expect to be taken seriously.

What is playoff success? Winning a round? I hardly think that is anything.

All it means moving forward is your pick is lower in the draft, nothing else.

I've always said this, losing is losing, a round is nothing.
 
Everybody keeps saying just be glad they're making the playoffs.

That it wasn't that long ago things were worse.

That may be true but guess what? Things could also be better too. In fact things SHOULD be better.

A lot better.

Are we really gonna compare this team to those dumpster fires from years past and tell ourselves to be satisfied with what we have?

Because it's better than what we had. Meanwhile ignoring the fact it's still not good enough. I wish my standards were that low.

For some fans respect in the handshake lineup is good enough.

Getting to the playoffs is easy when half the teams in the league make it every year. Lol... once you take out the teams that are tanking it's actually pretty hard to not make the playoffs. I'll never understand why clinching a playoff spot is enough for some fans to call it a successful season.

Whereas I see it as the lowest level of achievement for this team.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 57 Years No Cup
What is playoff success? Winning a round? I hardly think that is anything.

All it means moving forward is your pick is lower in the draft, nothing else.

I've always said this, losing is losing, a round is nothing.
What's more successful, winning a round or losing a round?

In other news, I decided to humor you and took a look Colorado's history to see if this earlier post of yours had any validity.

They lost for sure, they are just over halfway there to the amount of times Washington's or Colorado's core lost.

Here's what I found.

Colorado
2014-15 - missed playoffs
2015-16 - missed playoffs
2016-17 - missed playoffs
2017-18 - 95 points, lost to a team with 117 points
2018-19 - 90 points, beat a team with 107, lost to a team with 101
2019-20 - 92 points, beat a team with 74, lost to a team with 82
2020-21 - 82 points, beat a team with 63, lost to a team with 82
2021-22 - won the cup

So after missing the playoffs for 3 years, in the next 4 seasons (before winning the cup in the 5th season), COL played 7 playoff series.

3 times they faced a team that finished higher in the standings they won one and lost two, exactly what you'd expect.
3 times they faced a team that finished lower in the standings they won two and lost one, exactly what you'd expect.
1 time they faced a team they were tied with in the standing, they lost.

Or to put it another way, their playoff performance in those years was almost exactly what you'd expect based on where they finished during the regular season while our team is now 1-7 in playoff series, some of those losses coming when we were massive favorites and some coming where we were either pickem, or slight underdogs.


Conclusion - Colorado performed as expected in the playoffs whereas we have been massive underachievers so thinking COL is a comparable to us is ... :biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh:

Like I said earlier, I suggest you try to be more objective if you expect to be taken seriously.

Are we really gonna compare this team to those dumpster fires from years past and tell ourselves to be satisfied with what we have?
That question has been answered thousands of times in a roundabout way by people posting here - of course we are!

It's not what I do, but it seems that that comparison is enough for some people, no make that many people.
 
What's more successful, winning a round or losing a round?

In other news, I decided to humor you and took a look Colorado's history to see if this earlier post of yours had any validity.

They lost for sure, they are just over halfway there to the amount of times Washington's or Colorado's core lost.

Here's what I found.

Colorado
2014-15 - missed playoffs
2015-16 - missed playoffs
2016-17 - missed playoffs
2017-18 - 95 points, lost to a team with 117 points
2018-19 - 90 points, beat a team with 107, lost to a team with 101
2019-20 - 92 points, beat a team with 74, lost to a team with 82
2020-21 - 82 points, beat a team with 63, lost to a team with 82
2021-22 - won the cup

So after missing the playoffs for 3 years, in the next 4 seasons (before winning the cup in the 5th season), COL played 7 playoff series.

3 times they faced a team that finished higher in the standings they won one and lost two, exactly what you'd expect.
3 times they faced a team that finished lower in the standings they won two and lost one, exactly what you'd expect.
1 time they faced a team they were tied with in the standing, they lost.

Or to put it another way, their playoff performance in those years was almost exactly what you'd expect based on where they finished during the regular season while our team is now 1-7 in playoff series, some of those losses coming when we were massive favorites and some coming where we were either pickem, or slight underdogs.


Conclusion - Colorado performed as expected in the playoffs whereas we have been massive underachievers so thinking COL is a comparable to us is ... :biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh:

Like I said earlier, I suggest you try to be more objective if you expect to be taken seriously.

So regular season is an important measuring stick now? Awesome, good to know.

So Tampa was never expected to beat us.

Columbus was a toss-up.

The Leafs can fail in the playoffs and there still be a chance they win this year.

Series are too short to have guaranteed winners.

 
This is funny to me since the crowd who hated Dubas is now saying this offseason is a win by Treliving doing exactly what Dubas has done for the last few years... we made 0 big changes.

I've liked most of the signings because we got more scoring depth which has been needed, but let's not pretend like the team is not 90% the same as last year... Keefe is back (people seem to be alright with it now), all the core players are back, we signed some depth scoring, and a #4/5D that you hope can rebound into a top 3.

We all cheer for the same team and hope for success, we just disagree on what is best for the team.

Treliving has only made 2 bad signings so far, I am happy with him thus far and I don't think anyone is a fan of Dubas, they are Leafs fans.
Well, at least he hasn't signed someone we don't need for $11.55M (13.83%) for 7 years, so there is that much of an improvement.

I'm not sure who you think the "2 bad signings" were. If one is Keefe, I agree, but the signing is really meaningless (keeping him as coach is a different story).

But yes, I haven't seen anything particularly impressive, although I don't think he really could have done anything about the core.

I think if someone can look at our three highest paid players and insist that there were absolutely no mistakes or overpayments, they have to be classified as primarily Dubas fans rather than Leafs fans.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ShaneFalco
Well, at least he hasn't signed someone we don't need for $11.55M (13.83%) for 7 years, so there is that much of an improvement.

I'm not sure who you think the "2 bad signings" were. If one is Keefe, I agree, but the signing is really meaningless (keeping him as coach is a different story).

But yes, I haven't seen anything particularly impressive, although I don't think he really could have done anything about the core.

I think if someone can look at our three highest paid players and insist that there were absolutely no mistakes or overpayments, they have to be classified as primarily Dubas fans rather than Leafs fans.

2 bad signings are Kampf (overpaid) and Reaves (useless and overpaid).

I've always said Marner is overpaid by a couple of million.

Tavares was paid his worth but in hindsight is overpaid.

We projected a cap increase for Tavares and we didn't get it, and now the same people whining about that contract are whining that we didn't bank on one for Matthews, it is ironic.

The issue is people look at a contract after signing and decide if it is a good signing instead of looking at it at the time of signing.

Boston taking discounts is always brought up when none of them took discounts, their contracts just aged well.
 
So regular season is an important measuring stick now? Awesome, good to know.

Playoff expectations have always been mostly based on how teams play in the regular season, adjusting of course for changes made at the TDL and injuries. Or what, you think color of jerseys are a factor?

So Tampa was never expected to beat us.
LOL nice obfuscation there pal. It's not a matter of "expect", it's a matter of probability and based on probability, we've been massive underachievers with this core.

Columbus was a toss-up.
And our colors are blue and white. Not sure what cluttering up discussion with random facts achieves, seems like more obfuscation to me.

The Leafs can fail in the playoffs and there still be a chance they win this year.
Any team that plays, has a chance to win. Again, not sure what cluttering up discussion with random facts achieves, seems like more obfuscation to me.

Series are too short to have guaranteed winners.

There are never any guaranteed winners no matter what the length of series are. Again, this is nothing more than obfuscation.

Most of the time I've seen you as a quality poster regardless of whether or not we agree (and we agree on quite a bit) but this series of posts from you today is the worst I can remember seeing from you. Hopefully you won't be this cringeworthy going forward.

The issue is people look at a contract after signing and decide if it is a good signing instead of looking at it at the time of signing.
This I agree with completely, and I would say the same applies to trades.
 
Playoff expectations have always been mostly based on how teams play in the regular season, adjusting of course for changes made at the TDL and injuries. Or what, you think color of jerseys are a factor?


LOL nice obfuscation there pal. It's not a matter of "expect", it's a matter of probability and based on probability, we've been massive underachievers with this core.


And our colors are blue and white. Not sure what cluttering up discussion with random facts achieves, seems like more obfuscation to me.


Any team that plays, has a chance to win. Again, not sure what cluttering up discussion with random facts achieves, seems like more obfuscation to me.



There are never any guaranteed winners no matter what the length of series are. Again, this is nothing more than obfuscation.

Most of the time I've seen you as a quality poster regardless of whether or not we agree (and we agree on quite a bit) but this series of posts from you today is the worst I can remember seeing from you. Hopefully you won't be this cringeworthy going forward.


This I agree with completely, and I would say the same applies to trades.

Do you think there was a better probability that we beat Tampa the year after they won the cup than Columbus the year we lost to them?

This aligns with your post.
 
Last edited:
So regular season is an important measuring stick now? Awesome, good to know.

So Tampa was never expected to beat us.

Columbus was a toss-up.

The Leafs can fail in the playoffs and there still be a chance they win this year.

Series are too short to have guaranteed winners.


That just makes the Leafs look even worse considering they lost in the 1st round how many years in a row?
 
Do you think there was a better probability that we beat Tampa the year after they won the cup than Columbus the year we lost to them?

This aligns with your post.
More obfuscation.

You mentioned Colorado, I showed you that their playoff performance leading up to when they won the cup was pretty much exactly what could be expected based on their regular season performance whereas our playoff performance has fallen well short of expectations.

Those are the facts. You can pick a cherry here and a cherry there in a hopeless attempt at obfuscation but that doesn't change the fact that the big picture is what it is. Or are you unable to see the big picture for some reason? Are you incapable of seeing things that don't suit your agenda?

Take a step back, look at the big picture, admit that what you said about COL made no sense and let's move on.
 
Last edited:
More obfuscation.

You mentioned Colorado, I showed you that their playoff performance leading up to when they won the cup was pretty much exactly what could be expected based on their regular season performance whereas our playoff performance has fallen well short of expectations.

Those are the facts. You can pick a cherry here and a cherry there in a hopeless attempt at obfuscation but that doesn't change the fact that the big picture is what it is. Or are you unable to see the big picture for some reason? Are you incapable of seeing things that don't suit your agenda?

No one is arguing that we didn't disappoint in the postseason, I am arguing past results do not equal future results.

Not sure about the issue with comprehension here.

Now about the pointless argument you are making, Washington is the same as Colorado? Poor regular seasons and their post-season record matched? I gave you two teams and you picked one, no way you'd cherry-pick, they must be the same (they aren't).
 
2 bad signings are Kampf (overpaid) and Reaves (useless and overpaid).

I've always said Marner is overpaid by a couple of million.

Tavares was paid his worth but in hindsight is overpaid.

We projected a cap increase for Tavares and we didn't get it, and now the same people whining about that contract are whining that we didn't bank on one for Matthews, it is ironic.

The issue is people look at a contract after signing and decide if it is a good signing instead of looking at it at the time of signing.

Boston taking discounts is always brought up when none of them took discounts, their contracts just aged well.
Reaves definitely, Kampf maybe (imo).

Tavares signed to be a 1C, the contract would be OK, but signed as a 2C, no. A lot of people are reaching that conclusion now, but I felt that way "at the time of signing" - does that make me smarter or luckier (or just grumpier)?

Agree about the cap increase, and I've never been one to complain - I figure the lack of increase applied to all teams.

Was Boston given 'discounts' (no) or just smarter with player assessments and negotiations (yes).
 
  • Like
Reactions: myleafs
Playoff expectations have always been mostly based on how teams play in the regular season, adjusting of course for changes made at the TDL and injuries. Or what, you think color of jerseys are a factor?
There was a study done several years ago (of NFL, NBA, and NHL teams, if memory serves) that concluded that the more black in the uniform, the more penalties you were assessed, or the more likely you were to be penalized for a particular level of infraction.

(Irrelevant to the discussion, but interesting.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gary Nylund
Reaves definitely, Kampf maybe (imo).

Tavares signed to be a 1C, the contract would be OK, but signed as a 2C, no. A lot of people are reaching that conclusion now, but I felt that way "at the time of signing" - does that make me smarter or luckier (or just grumpier)?

Agree about the cap increase, and I've never been one to complain - I figure the lack of increase applied to all teams.

Was Boston given 'discounts' (no) or just smarter with player assessments and negotiations (yes).

Tavares is a 2C the same way Malkin or Draisaitl are.

Cap increase applied to all teams but it'd be naive to think it affected everyone equally.

Option 3 with Boston was their player development was much slower.
 
Tavares is a 2C the same way Malkin or Draisaitl are.

Cap increase applied to all teams but it'd be naive to think it affected everyone equally.

Option 3 with Boston was their player development was much slower.
Option 4 with Boston is that the grass is always greener. This team never won a cup with this core (they did win when this core was young and supporting a previous core). They bowed out in the first round last year, are without any top centres, dumped Hall to sign mediocre players to fill out a roster, have no cap space at all, no picks and no real prospects. We would much rather be the Leafs, no?
 
How are you making these determinations in August?
How are you not making these determinations. Defense wins cups. Gio and Brodie are old. We need a young stud dman. That's all. Go look at Samsonovs playoff record.He can't win a round on his own. We lost OReilly, Accarri and Schenn. Three character guys.
 
I have serious concerns about threads that have serious concerns that are created on August 5th.

It's possible that Treliving is done most of his roster construction, but no one can really say with any certainty that this is the team.

Who will impress in training camp? Do we have anyone (Marlies/Prospects) that can fill holes in our defensive depth? Is TOR really going with THAT bottom 6? There's certainly work to be done there.

I'm not the only one noticing these issues and holes. Can we still say what this team will be with this many questions and bodies to put in places?
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad