Hurricanes sale formally closed, Tom Dundon now majority owner

[Killion]

Greenberg should walk away if PK won't be fair...

Hard to say whats goin on MM. Greenbergs a Lawyer & Lawyers dont usually just "walk away" from a fight or a disagreement, will do whatever takes to the turn the tables & tide in their own or their clients favor. There could be any number of possibilities playing out behind the scenes. Greenbergs been around the track. He represented Mario Lemieux which saw him winning ownership stakes in the Penguins and he was instrumental in getting the new arena built down there in Steel Town. He also took a run at the Dallas Stars during Hick's BK, ultimately losing out to Gaglardi..... He's obviously having some difficulties with financing as reported but I dont know that I'd write this off quite yet. He had an exclusive period to negotiate & consummate the transaction & there is still time on the clock.

Remember the situation with Charles Wang & Andrew Barroway? Wang purportedly breaching that exclusive negotiating contract & reneging, demanding more for the Islanders than the agreed upon price in the wake of the Clippers sale? Barroway (also a Lawyer & a guy who many wondered where/how he could come up with the $$$ to buy the Islanders in the first place) then threatening all manner of Lawsuits when Wang upped the price well into the stratosphere.... Well, I'm sure Karmanos & the NHL's Legal Beagles recall that situation & dont want to be breaching an exclusive negotiating & sale agreement with Lawyer Greenberg nes pa? Look what happened last time & how they wound up essentially "gifting" a franchise to Andrew Barroway to make that threatened suit go away. Greenbergs good Buddies with Mark Cuban as well, 3-4 yrs younger than Cuban. Obviously good buddies with Mario Lemieux etc etc etc, well connected. Stellar track record at the minor-pro level. He'd be a great owner, welcome addition to the NHL.

So look at his track record, the guys no Dummy, not a Moonshot Artist, several notches better than a guy like Barroway so.... maybe he's hoping Peter Karmanos does breach the agreement so he can then let the paper fly, let the courts decide. Like I said, could be any number of strategies being employed. We just dont know, everyone under NDA's. I think its pretty much universally accepted, understood that Peter Karmanos doesnt play nice, isnt "fair" as you suggest he be. So maybe Greenberg's decided he's going to be the Giant Slayer. He's going to force a breach, drive PK sideways just as PK is driving any realistic offers away with his outrageous sticker price. Only way to deal with the guy. Greenberg would be doing the NHL a big favor as I'm quite certain the last thing the League wants to see happen is for that team to have to move, to have to acquiesce to Peter Karmanos & allow him to sell that club to Seattle, Houston or Quebec interests..... Thats just one possibility, theory..... I gots lots more... but.... were shootin in the dark here. Disinformation campaign underway. Should make fir fun times ahead & lets hope for the sake of the market & the fans its resolved sooner rather than later & PK can eff the **** back to Michigan, Florida or wherever it is that his child bride decides they wanna call home.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Hard to say whats goin on MM. Greenbergs a Lawyer & Lawyers dont usually just "walk away" from a fight or a disagreement, will do whatever takes to the turn the tables & tide in their own or their clients favor. There could be any number of possibilities playing out behind the scenes. Greenbergs been around the track. He represented Mario Lemieux which saw him winning ownership stakes in the Penguins and he was instrumental in getting the new arena built down there in Steel Town. He also took a run at the Dallas Stars during Hick's BK, ultimately losing out to Gaglardi..... He's obviously having some difficulties with financing as reported but I dont know that I'd write this off quite yet. He had an exclusive period to negotiate & consummate the transaction & there is still time on the clock.

Remember the situation with Charles Wang & Andrew Barroway? Wang purportedly breaching that exclusive negotiating contract & reneging, demanding more for the Islanders than the agreed upon price in the wake of the Clippers sale? Barroway (also a Lawyer & a guy who many wondered where/how he could come up with the $$$ to buy the Islanders in the first place) then threatening all manner of Lawsuits when Wang upped the price well into the stratosphere.... Well, I'm sure Karmanos & the NHL's Legal Beagles recall that situation & dont want to be breaching an exclusive negotiating & sale agreement with Lawyer Greenberg nes pa? Look what happened last time & how they wound up essentially "gifting" a franchise to Andrew Barroway to make that threatened suit go away. Greenbergs good Buddies with Mark Cuban as well, 3-4 yrs younger than Cuban. Obviously good buddies with Mario Lemieux etc etc etc, well connected. Stellar track record at the minor-pro level. He'd be a great owner, welcome addition to the NHL.

So look at his track record, the guys no Dummy, not a Moonshot Artist, several notches better than a guy like Barroway so.... maybe he's hoping Peter Karmanos does breach the agreement so he can then let the paper fly, let the courts decide. Like I said, could be any number of strategies being employed. We just dont know, everyone under NDA's. I think its pretty much universally accepted, understood that Peter Karmanos doesnt play nice, isnt "fair" as you suggest he be. So maybe Greenberg's decided he's going to be the Giant Slayer. He's going to force a breach, drive PK sideways just as PK is driving any realistic offers away with his outrageous sticker price. Only way to deal with the guy. Greenberg would be doing the NHL a big favor as I'm quite certain the last thing the League wants to see happen is for that team to have to move, to have to acquiesce to Peter Karmanos & allow him to sell that club to Seattle, Houston or Quebec interests..... Thats just one possibility, theory..... I gots lots more... but.... were shootin in the dark here. Disinformation campaign underway. Should make fir fun times ahead & lets hope for the sake of the market & the fans its resolved sooner rather than later & PK can eff the **** back to Michigan, Florida or wherever it is that his child bride decides they wanna call home.

Agreed Killion. I only think that it has hit a snag because Greenberg saw the books and he didn't like what was in there. I don't think people want to take a loss here.

 

[aqib]

Agreed Killion. I only think that it has hit a snag because Greenberg saw the books and he didn't like what was in there. I don't think people want to take a loss here.

I don't think there would be anything in the books that would have surprised him. He has owned sports teams before and had bid on a bankrupt hockey team. Its rounding up the other investors he is having a problem with. Its Greg Jamison all over again.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I don't think there would be anything in the books that would have surprised him. He has owned sports teams before and had bid on a bankrupt hockey team. Its rounding up the other investors he is having a problem with. Its Greg Jamison all over again.

Yup I just don't think the money is there either.

 

[Fairview]

Greenberg= Greg Jamison. Nice idea but not a large enough bank account to pull it off. If you are having difficulty raising funds to purchase the team, then who is going to cover the operating expenses of the team over the years? $500 million is a huge hole to try get out of, and then you add in the operating expenses...YIKES!!!

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

none of the posters here have 500 M to CAR/ARI, but love to whine as if they have a real solution, come on folks, let's buy a pro franchise instead of blaming owners who are in the process of such.

 

[Mightygoose]

It appears the prospective owners don't have 500 million to buy this pro franchise either. There's the problem.

Granted PK says he's not in a hurry to sell and hope that's the case. Otherwise he's going to have a wait on his hands. This does nothing for consumer confidence, a franchise in limbo is never a good thing.

Mr. Karmanos could always sell based on what the market can bear. There's a solution.

 

[Fairview]

It appears the prospective owners don't have 500 million to buy this pro franchise either. There's the problem.

Granted PK says he's not in a hurry to sell and hope that's the case. Otherwise he's going to have a wait on his hands. This does nothing for consumer confidence, a franchise in limbo is never a good thing.

Mr. Karmanos could always sell based on what the market can bear. There's a solution.

If he sells it at market value, they could always announce that it sold for the bogus $500 million amount, to save face. It is not like the NHL has never done that before

 

[Hulkacaniac]

Karmanos wants his $500 million. The timing of this around expansion isn't coincidental on his part. Evidently he needs that "liquidity." It's funny how people do this kind of stuff for their family, but really what's the difference between $100 m or $500 m or even $1 billion to a family? I suppose that's a whole other discussion. It's also probable PK's got some other debts and such to take care of.

 

[Fenway]

Karmanos wants his $500 million. The timing of this around expansion isn't coincidental on his part. Evidently he needs that "liquidity." It's funny how people do this kind of stuff for their family, but really what's the difference between $100 m or $500 m or even $1 billion to a family? I suppose that's a whole other discussion. It's also probable PK's got some other debts and such to take care of.

The only hint we have into Karmanos' thinking is his selling his beloved OHL team in Michigan. He could have gotten more from a city in Ontario than Flint but he will be America First when he finally sells the Caines. I have no doubt he wants to find a buyer in Carolina but if he can't get his price there he will look elsewhere in the US instead of talking to Quebec and with Houston now an option everything gets murky.

 

[Acesolid]

The only hint we have into Karmanos' thinking is his selling his beloved OHL team in Michigan. He could have gotten more from a city in Ontario than Flint but he will be America First when he finally sells the Caines. I have no doubt he wants to find a buyer in Carolina but if he can't get his price there he will look elsewhere in the US instead of talking to Quebec and with Houston now an option everything gets murky.

You know, I dont mind if that's what happens. If Carolina moves to Houston, then Quebec has gotta be expansion team 32. Since a spot opens up east.

 

[Howie Hodge]

John Spanos and Boots Del Biaggio III are interested in buying The Canes. They will bring in Len Barrie if they need another investor.......

 

[Melrose Munch]

The only hint we have into Karmanos' thinking is his selling his beloved OHL team in Michigan. He could have gotten more from a city in Ontario than Flint but he will be America First when he finally sells the Caines. I have no doubt he wants to find a buyer in Carolina but if he can't get his price there he will look elsewhere in the US instead of talking to Quebec and with Houston now an option everything gets murky.

You know, I dont mind if that's what happens. If Carolina moves to Houston, then Quebec has gotta be expansion team 32. Since a spot opens up east.

that's clean and nice. the league gets in to houston and quebec gets a clean slate.

 

[Mightygoose]

The only hint we have into Karmanos' thinking is his selling his beloved OHL team in Michigan. He could have gotten more from a city in Ontario than Flint but he will be America First when he finally sells the Caines. I have no doubt he wants to find a buyer in Carolina but if he can't get his price there he will look elsewhere in the US instead of talking to Quebec and with Houston now an option everything gets murky.

I don't think the countey really matters. There were no Canadian options to move the Whalers at the time. He was looking seriously at Chatham first but that city wasn't going to build a new arena.

The Flint group originally wanted in the USHL but that league wasn't interested so the match happened to work. Hamilton opened up after the Whalers sale so that could have been an option.

He'll see to whoever is going to give him the best $$$

 

[LadyStanley]

Progress?

 

[Acesolid]

that's clean and nice. the league gets in to houston and quebec gets a clean slate.

Exactly, I think that'd be the best option. But is someone in Houston willing to pay PK around 500 millions plus a relocation fee the NHL will ask for? I think if that's the case (and no savior comes out of thin air in Carolina), it's a clean solution.

Carolina goes to Houston and to the Central division. You expand to Québec in the Atlantic. And move both Florida teams to the Met. Division.

There you go, even conferences close time-zones and grouped by geography.

 

[Killion]

The only hint we have into Karmanos' thinking is his selling his beloved OHL team in Michigan. He could have gotten more from a city in Ontario than Flint but he will be America First when he finally sells the Caines. I have no doubt he wants to find a buyer in Carolina but if he can't get his price there he will look elsewhere in the US instead of talking to Quebec and with Houston now an option everything gets murky.

Yeah I dont know about that Fenway. Do you think the women sitting in the windows of the Red Light district in Amsterdam are selective in only dealing with those holding a Dutch Passport? That they'd ask or even care?... I get the distinct impression that all Karmanos cares about is maximizing that asset in receiving the highest possible sale price and would be open to offers from Canadian destinations.... and at this time or near term I dont see Seattle (not ready) or Portland (price is too steep) or Houston (I'd be surprised if the new owner of the NBA team down there wants to dig that deeply into his jeans though he might be interested in a minority share) so really that would only leave QC willing to pay him $500M.

Thanks to his mismanagement the Hurricanes are a distressed asset where is as is & that asking price is a huge obstacle to securing a local sale at that price in North Carolina; the $500M price tag a bridge too far domestically in the Lower 48. You'd need another Bill Foley type riding to the rescue be it a local or US domestic sale. An extremely wealthy buyer motivated by vanity & emotion, justifying the price paid post sale with flawed logic but as whomever having billions, who cares? People like that dont grow on tree's. Practically speaking the only business model that rationalizes that price tag is that of Quebecor's, media content, TVA etc, a rabid fan base, hefty enough corporate support locally to make it work. They have an arena, willing buyer, good to go..... and while I'd like to "believe" Peter Karmanos would be willing to take a $100M or $150M haircut to keep the team in Raleigh I'm afraid I'm not all that optimistic about that nor would I ascribe "loyalty" to a market or country for that matter to that particular individual given his track record of the past 30+ years. Cold, calculating, entirely pragmatic. Remember when he balked at the $50M Expansion Fee for Tampa? Offered $25M & was shown the door. Now the shoes on the other foot. Very interesting situation, dynamic.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Progress?

PK is lying. If there was buyers in Raleigh, we would have heard something by now.

Exactly, I think that'd be the best option. But is someone in Houston willing to pay PK around 500 millions plus a relocation fee the NHL will ask for? I think if that's the case (and no savior comes out of thin air in Carolina), it's a clean solution.

Carolina goes to Houston and to the Central division. You expand to Québec in the Atlantic. And move both Florida teams to the Met. Division.

There you go, even conferences close time-zones and grouped by geography.

Greenberg and Tilman Fertitta can go 200m a piece. That takes a lot of the pressure off. 400m right there.

 

[Killion]

Greenberg and Tilman Fertitta can go 200m a piece. That takes a lot of the pressure off. 400m right there.

Something like that might work however your still not only $100M short but you'd also need a "float" of roughly half the franchise sale price, another $250M on top of that to kick-start operations in Houston, carrying costs for the first several years.... And MM?.... were not even close to discussing a total Sale For Relocation yet according to comments coming out of the Karmanos camp. That they supposedly do have other interested parties. That Greenberg either needs to show the money or get out of the way, that "Plan B" is to start talking to these groups. Or am I misunderstanding things; that "Plan B" is to entertain offers for Relocation?.... Because I dont think so. Thats probably "Plan C" and if it's ever permitted to go that far, if thats what this guys ultimately headed for, his real objective, hidden agenda then one can only hope the NHL intervenes & blows the wheels clean off his little red wagon before they ever touch the ground.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Something like that might work however your still not only $100M short but you'd also need a "float" of roughly half the franchise sale price, another $250M on top of that to kick-start operations in Houston, carrying costs for the first several years.... And MM?.... were not even close to discussing a total Sale For Relocation yet according to comments coming out of the Karmanos camp. That they supposedly do have other interested parties. That Greenberg either needs to show the money or get out of the way, that "Plan B" is to start talking to these groups. Or am I misunderstanding things; that "Plan B" is to entertain offers for Relocation?.... Because I dont think so. Thats probably "Plan C" and if it's ever permitted to go that far, if thats what this guys ultimately headed for, his real objective, hidden agenda then one can only hope the NHL intervenes & blows the wheels clean off his little red wagon before the wheels ever touch the ground.

Question is does he want 400m or 500m Kil. Seems he is playing with the price here. And I think that the NHL would only step in if there was bad PR from this. Which is likely.

 

[Killion]

Question is does he want 400m or 500m Kil. Seems he is playing with the price here. And I think that the NHL would only step in if there was bad PR from this. Which is likely.

Again, unless I've totally missed something here he wants $500M, stuck on that price, wont be retreating from it under any circumstances. Doesnt want to retain any equity in the club for himself or for his kids. And unless I miss my mark not interested in receiving stocks or shares or whatever as partial payment from a potential buyer in lieu of dollars. Wants to totally cash out. Figured if Wang could get nearly $500M & based on what Foley paid $500M a reasonable price. Initially that wasnt the case. He did want to retain a minority share while retaining majority control, calling the shots. An impossible situation. Absolutely irrational in fact but then Ive always thought of him as being somewhat unhinged so I guess not so surprising but still. Even to a crazy person that doesnt make any sense. So here we are. Personally I think by any reasonable & sane valuation of that club he's asking for about $200M more than what its worth but there ya go. He aint budgin.

 

[Melrose Munch]

Again, unless I've totally missed something here he wants $500M, stuck on that price, wont be retreating from it under any circumstances. Doesnt want to retain any equity in the club for himself or for his kids. And unless I miss my mark not interested in receiving stocks or shares or whatever as partial payment from a potential buyer in lieu of dollars. Wants to totally cash out. Figured if Wang could get nearly $500M & based on what Foley paid $500M a reasonable price. Initially that wasnt the case. He did want to retain a minority share while retaining majority control, calling the shots. An impossible situation. Absolutely irrational in fact but then Ive always thought of him as being somewhat unhinged so I guess not so surprising but still. Even to a crazy person that doesnt make any sense. So here we are. Personally I think by any reasonable & sane valuation of that club he's asking for about $200M more than what its worth but there ya go. He aint budgin.

Initial selling price PK wanted was 400m and then Greenberg signed a deal for 500m
http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/nhl/carolina-hurricanes/article10068434.html
https://sports.yahoo.com/chuck-greenberg-buying-hurricanes-500m-staying-carolina-182107363.html

He jacked the price up by 100m despite the fact the franchise hasn't been in the black at this time. Why?

 

[Slashers98]

My bet is Carolina to Quebec City, Phoenix to Houston and expansion to Seattle when they are finally ready. Just my 2 cents.

Two dumpster fires gone and Gary gets his long-time dream of a new team in the Pacific North West.

I might be totally wrong though.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

He jacked the price up by 100m despite the fact the franchise hasn't been in the black at this time. Why?

I agree the franchise is not worth near 500 million, but they made a meager profit last year.

 

[Killion]

Initial selling price PK wanted was 400m and then Greenberg signed a deal for 500m
http://www.newsobserver.com/sports/nhl/carolina-hurricanes/article10068434.html
https://sports.yahoo.com/chuck-greenberg-buying-hurricanes-500m-staying-carolina-182107363.html

He jacked the price up by 100m despite the fact the franchise hasn't been in the black at this time. Why?

Well that was 3yrs ago MM. A lots changed in 3yrs. Also always interesting to read (re-read) some of his comments from then & now. Ballpark figure is $400M + in 2014, that "hopefully team stays in Carolina" & so on. As you'll recall the Coyotes "valuation" went from a supposed purchase price of $170M (over 80% financed at that along with league loans) to being declared to be actually worth $305M, nearly double in less than 12mnths after IceArizona had been running the team, and drowning in red ink. Between 2014 & October 2017, today, Ballmer purchase, Islanders sale, Expansion.

I dont think for a minute the Hurricanes are worth $500M including arena operations however thats what Karmanos now wants and in setting that price he's priced that franchise out of the market. The only way he'll get that is through poratability, a sale for relo, and you just have to figure he GD well knows it. So who's zoomin who here? Is Chuck Greenberg simply trying to talk reason to Karmanos who doesnt speak that language and instead then declares Greenberg needs to show me the money, all $500M or what?

Hell of a job to rope in any prudent investors at that price for that club after Karmanos has been driving it through the ditch for the past decade & even before then, notoriously cheap. Weve seen this before just with different wrinkles in Atlanta. So I dunno. But Karmanos like Wang, Melnyk, King & Co in Calgary along with others, always a hidden agenda, forever on the make. Sense of entitlement beyond all reason. Theres precedent for the price he's demanding & no matter that its irrelevant for that club where is as is and thats that. Wait for the other shoes to drop. What Greenberg has to say if he cant close & the clock runs out. The evaporation of this supposed lineup of local buyers (hopefully I'm wrong about this), how the NHL reacts, how they handle this.