OT: Hurricanes Lounge XLVI: Really, It's All About Beer and Bojangles

[MrazeksVengeance]

Oh come on, IT’S NOT A SECRET.

I OPENLY STAND FOR VIOLENCE AND WISHED AN INJURY UPON SEVERAL ATHLETES AND DEATH UPON SEVERAL POLITICIANS ACROSS THE WORLD.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

US crime stats dramatically change if you exclude like 5 cities. Yes there is an issue with young urban areas culture.

Which 5? There are 24 cities with a violent crime rate of > 1000 per 100,000 people? Not all of those are the largest cities.

List of United States cities by crime rate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You can sort by total violent crimes.

EDIT: I do agree that there are issues in urban areas, particularly poor urban areas, where the rates are much higher for a variety of reasons.

School shootings is a mental illness issue, issues we didn't have when you could mail order guns to your house with out a background check.

That's nonsense. There have been school shootings throughout time. For instance, in 1940, 7 people were shot in Pasadena. The University of Texas shooting was 1966. 7 were shot by a student in Mesa AZ in 1966.

I won't deny that it seems to have gotten more prevalent now, but to say that we didnt' have an issue before isn't correct.

I also agree there is a mental health component to this, but I also think that neither you, nor me, nor all the GOOGLE U posters on Social Media don't know enough about mental illness to act like experts on it.

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

It's almost like 2a haters don't know that well regulated meant "well equipped" in the textual language of the time and convinently miss the 'shall not be infringed' part.

Despite your fetish for controlling my property, and 2a rights you'll never do it without force. So if you're willing to go that far, so am I.

"Envision that however you want"

Regulation can be downwards… and upwards. Sides picking to ignore whichever they find to be unfitting for their arguments will not change that.

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

YO HO HO.

I KILLED A FLY.

 

[cptjeff]

It's almost like 2a haters don't know that well regulated meant "well equipped" in the textual language of the time and convinently miss the 'shall not be infringed' part.

Despite your fetish for controlling my property, and 2a rights you'll never do it without force. So if you're willing to go that far, so am I.

"Envision that however you want"

No, it didn't mean that. That's just a straight up lie created by the gun lobby.

Here's a former Chief Justice on the subject- a man who was considered an arch conservative in his day:

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

The ACA certainly helped a lot of people who didn't have insurance to get insurance, but it also DRASTICALLY reduced the quality and coverage of insurance. Unless you were in the poverty level where you got great health insurance for cheap, most of those folks only got "catastrophic" plans (cheap premium with super-high deductibles & OOP maximums) basically just to avoid the penalties. My company, to keep our rate from tripling immediately, switched us from a copay-based health insurance to a HDHP, as did countless other companies. Now I get to pay an insurance premium AND for all my healthcare costs until I hit that high-deductible and then pay coinsurance until a higher out of pocket maximum. So now I have health insurance that is cost-prohibitive to use unless I'm in dire need. And of course because EVERYONE has insurance, there's less competition and that's really just given them even more power over networks, coverage, and medical decisions.

What you aren't considering are 2 things.
1) Many of these companies used this as a means to pass along more costs to employees so they could increase their own bottom line.
2) Many of these insurance companies used this to significantly increase profit.

As I showed in the chart above, the cost of insurance was increasing in a straight line trend that didn't change before or after the ACA, yet the revenue generated by private insurers increased dramatically over that same stretch.

I worked for a fortune 500 company that in 2005, stopped all defined retirement benefits (including Medical) and a few years later started making employees to start paying part of their medical premiums. Even for employees that had been there for 15 years, it was taken away. This was years before ACA was ever a thing.

Don't underestimate how much Employer and Insurers revenue and profit impacted this. I'm convinced that if ACA was never a thing, we'd be in the exact same spot today.

 

[BOTH]

@ both I’d say USA isn’t a land of unified culture

@Borsig to follow up on this, I’d say poorly taught respect to ownership and usage of firearms transcends political spectrum (I don’t consider you be a typical part of either camp)

On a personal note - I like guns. Dad had a revolver (currently is with my brother in law, because he has a license) and I’d like to get a license once me and D-V get our own property of some size. It’s just… approach of some US folks to guns is as alien to me as to US people the idea of 19 and 17 year old having a casual hook up without issues.

Always liked this one from Samuel L. Jackson

Los Angeles Times

"I don't think it's about more gun control," said Samuel L. Jackson. "I grew up in the South with guns everywhere, and we never shot anyone. This [Newtown shooting] is about people who aren't taught...

www.facebook.com

EDIT: apparently there is a user named “BOTH”

Guilty. Air Force callsigns die hard.

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Again, if we all agree that there's a mental health issue component to (a majority) of these school shootings, why is there such resistance towards allowing good mental health treatment in this country? Especially in schools, where it's probably needed the most.

 

[Unsustainable]

Which 5? There are 24 cities with a violent crime rate of > 1000 per 100,000 people? Not all of those are the largest cities.

List of United States cities by crime rate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

You can sort by total violent crimes.

EDIT: I do agree that there are issues in urban areas, particularly poor urban areas, where the rates are much higher for a variety of reasons.

That's nonsense. There have been school shootings throughout time. For instance, in 1940, 7 people were shot in Pasadena. The University of Texas shooting was 1966. 7 were shot by a student in Mesa AZ in 1966.

I won't deny that it seems to have gotten more prevalent now, but to say that we didnt' have an issue before isn't correct.

I also agree there is a mental health component to this, but I also think that neither you, nor me, nor all the GOOGLE U posters on Social Media don't know enough about mental illness to act like experts on it.

Normally the school shootings was committed by the government in the 60s and prior.

Again, if we all agree that there's a mental health issue component to (a majority) of these school shootings, why is there such resistance towards allowing good mental health treatment in this country? Especially in schools, where it's probably needed the most.

Reagan i think did away the mental asylums

 

[cptjeff]

Again, if we all agree that there's a mental health issue component to (a majority) of these school shootings, why is there such resistance towards allowing good mental health treatment in this country? Especially in schools, where it's probably needed the most.

But every other country has the same incidence of mental illness. Some treat it better than others, but the difference is that we allow absolutely f***ing anyone to buy a gun, and other countries don't.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Normally the school shootings was committed by the government in the 60s and prior.

Ah, I completely forgot about your tinfoil hat. My bad.

 

[tarheelhockey]

LOL to this.

ETA - nevermind, not worth it in the echo chamber of statism.

And however you imagine that going, is also for you. Theres a reason it hasn't been tried on a national level.

So you challenge the room to think of a way to address the 2A without violating it; and when immediately presented with one, your response is “I will never compromise”, refusal to discuss further, and vague threats of violence?

I love ya, Borsig, but this is ain’t it. We have to be able to discuss and compromise. If not, this whole “respecting your Constitutional rights” thing becomes irrelevant in a hurry.

 

[Svechhammer]

Again, if we all agree that there's a mental health issue component to (a majority) of these school shootings, why is there such resistance towards allowing good mental health treatment in this country? Especially in schools, where it's probably needed the most.

There's no money in treating mental health. Better to push pills and social agendas to have people bickering over symptoms than address the root cause of the problems (some people are just f***ed in the head, and no amount of surgeries or murdering will resolve it)

 

[Blueline Bomber]

Reagan i think did away the mental asylums

And continuously cutting the budget of the Department of Education has eliminated the "guidance counselor" positions in many schools. They're not professional healthcare workers in any sense of the word, but they're better than having no one catching the 15-year-old Neo-Nazi before she shoots up the school.

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

Guilty. Air Force callsigns die hard.

 

[Unsustainable]

Ah, I completely forgot about your tinfoil hat. My bad.

Kent State. Jackson State, Wounded Knee...

 

[WreckingCrew]

What you aren't considering are 2 things.
1) Many of these companies used this as a means to pass along more costs to employees so they could increase their own bottom line.
2) Many of these insurance companies used this to significantly increase profit.

As I showed in the chart above, the cost of insurance was increasing in a straight line trend that didn't change before or after the ACA, yet the revenue generated by private insurers increased dramatically over that same stretch.

I worked for a fortune 500 company that in 2005, stopped all defined retirement benefits (including Medical) and a few years later started making employees to start paying part of their medical premiums. Even for employees that had been there for 15 years, it was taken away. This was years before ACA was ever a thing.

Don't underestimate how much Employer and Insurers revenue and profit impacted this. I'm convinced that if ACA was never a thing, we'd be in the exact same spot today.

Oh I don't disagree at all, those things are fully considered...but the ACA did, through various rules and provisions, increase the cost to the employer of employer-provided health insurance, so it became a springboard for them to find a way of meeting guidelines while countering those costs...and if they could find an excuse to swing it further, of course they're going to do that. I'm not absolving them of that corruption, but the ACA had a lot of predictable "unforseen" negative consequences that got ignored.

I am curious in that chart, is that the cost of insurance on an average? Or is that the cost of a certain type of plan of insurance? Because again, my insurance premium has always increased in an approximately "linear" fashion, but my coverage worsened while deductible and OOP max have also steadily gotten higher every year (quality has decreased while cost has increased)

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Just to give everyone a real life example of what corporations have done to benefits. Example: IBM

For years, the company had one of the best benefits plan in the US. Many times, employees took lower salaries because of job security and great benefits, including full medical and full retirement plan.

1999: IBM told employees under 40 or with less than 15 years, that they no longer get those benefits. They would now get a "cash balance"plan for retirement, which would mean an employee would need to work 40+ years to get the same amount as 25-30 years in the old plan. Also, they did away with retiree medical and gave employees a "Future Health Account" where they put money in an account that you could use ONLY for the purpose of helping to buy medical insurance from IBM.

Then in 2008, they "Froze" those accounts and would no longer contribute to them. Instead, they increased their 401K matching from $0.5 per dollar on the first 6% to $1 per $1 on the first 5% and would add another 1% on top of that. A decent 401K, but they completely eliminated retiree medical other than the amount that employees had in their FHA. They also started requiring employees to start contributing to their medical premiums at this time.

So now, long time employees had whatever they had (not much) in their cash balance plan (for most $100k or less) and whatever they had in their FHA ($35K or less and retiree benefits for 2 cost about $1800 / month) for retirement + their 401K.

Fast forward to 2024. IBM changed again. Still no medical benefits, but they completely stopped any contributions to the 401K. No matching, no automatic contribution. None. They went back to a "cash balance" plan where they would contribute a certain amount to each account and interest related to the 10-year Treasury yield in years thereafter.

Here's the kicker, IBM has enough funds in their retirement account and they are investing that with a return higher than what they are giving employees, so they NEVER have to put money into their retirement funds again. A huge boon to the bottom line.

A long progression of making it harder for employees and retirees and better for the corporation.

 

[tarheelhockey]

the root cause of the problems (some people are just f***ed in the head, and no amount of surgeries or murdering will resolve it)

While there are a certain number of people who come out of the womb that way, it seems that a lot of these shooters and other violent criminals aren’t just irredeemable nutcase supervillains. A good number of them are coming out of environments where they aren’t receiving meaningful treatment, and in many cases their home life is unstable or neglectful. I’m not so sure there’s really A root cause in those cases… more like a root system where contributing factors add up over time.

Ideally we’d operate our society in such a way that homes lives are more stable, and schools are more orderly and enriching, and mental illness can be identified and treated early. There are a bunch of root issues that need to be addressed in those areas.

One thing that really needs to be done, and done yesterday, is to get serious about identifying and treating students for mental illness. I don’t think a lot of people are going to like what that means in practice, because it involves an army of psychologists and social workers that need to be paid a living wage, but that’s the reality of where we are.

This is just unacceptable:

Circa Virginia Tech and Sandy Hook, we all felt that school violence was out of hand and needed addressing. Well, it’s WAY worse now than it was back then. And we’re all still waiting on leadership with the stones to actually make an unpopular decision in order to do something about it.

 

[Svechhammer]

Just to give everyone a real life example of what corporations have done to benefits. Example: IBM

For years, the company had one of the best benefits plan in the US. Many times, employees took lower salaries because of job security and great benefits, including full medical and full retirement plan.

1999: IBM told employees under 40 or with less than 15 years, that they no longer get those benefits. They would now get a "cash balance"plan for retirement, which would mean an employee would need to work 40+ years to get the same amount as 25-30 years in the old plan. Also, they did away with retiree medical and gave employees a "Future Health Account" where they put money in an account that you could use ONLY for the purpose of helping to buy medical insurance from IBM.

Then in 2008, they "Froze" those accounts and would no longer contribute to them. Instead, they increased their 401K matching from $0.5 per dollar on the first 6% to $1 per $1 on the first 5% and would add another 1% on top of that. A decent 401K, but they completely eliminated retiree medical other than the amount that employees had in their FHA. They also started requiring employees to start contributing to their medical premiums at this time.

So now, long time employees had whatever they had (not much) in their cash balance plan (for most $100k or less) and whatever they had in their FHA ($35K or less and retiree benefits for 2 cost about $1800 / month) for retirement + their 401K.

Fast forward to 2024. IBM changed again. Still no medical benefits, but they completely stopped any contributions to the 401K. No matching, no automatic contribution. None. They went back to a "cash balance" plan where they would contribute a certain amount to each account and interest related to the 10-year Treasury yield in years thereafter.

Here's the kicker, IBM has enough funds in their retirement account and they are investing that with a return higher than what they are giving employees, so they NEVER have to put money into their retirement funds again. A huge boon to the bottom line.

A long progression of making it harder for employees and retirees and better for the corporation.

And it's also a big reason why so many have learned to stay away from working for IBM, at least in my circles. I've had many associates at companies that were acquired by IBM who immediately started looking externally the minute the purchase was announced.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Oh I don't disagree at all, those things are fully considered...but the ACA did, through various rules and provisions, increase the cost to the employer of employer-provided health insurance, so it became a springboard for them to find a way of meeting guidelines while countering those costs...and if they could find an excuse to swing it further, of course they're going to do that. I'm not absolving them of that corruption, but the ACA had a lot of predictable "unforseen" negative consequences that got ignored.

I am curious in that chart, is that the cost of insurance on an average? Or is that the cost of a certain type of plan of insurance? Because again, my insurance premium has always increased in an approximately "linear" fashion, but my coverage worsened while deductible and OOP max have also steadily gotten higher every year (quality has decreased while cost has increased)

See my example of IBM I just posted. These companies were doing this even before ACA and continued after. It had very little to do with ACA and way more to do with bettering their bottom line.

We've all been fed by those with a vested interest to say that the ACA is the cause of all this, and it's what they want us believing. If ACA went away tomorrow, I guarantee you that your rates will continue to rise and your coverage will be less.

It's not just IBM.

And it's also a big reason why so many have learned to stay away from working for IBM, at least in my circles. I've had many associates at companies that were acquired by IBM who immediately started looking externally the minute the purchase was announced.

It's not just IBM. Companies big and small are doing the same thing.

 

[MrazeksVengeance]

While there are a certain number of people who come out of the womb that way, it seems that a lot of these shooters and other violent criminals aren’t just irredeemable nutcase supervillains. A good number of them are coming out of environments where they aren’t receiving meaningful treatment, and in many cases their home life is unstable or neglectful. I’m not so sure there’s really A root cause in those cases… more like a root system where contributing factors add up over time.

Ideally we’d operate our society in such a way that homes lives are more stable, and schools are more orderly and enriching, and mental illness can be identified and treated early. There are a bunch of root issues that need to be addressed in those areas.

One thing that really needs to be done, and done yesterday, is to get serious about identifying and treating students for mental illness. I don’t think a lot of people are going to like what that means in practice, because it involves an army of psychologists and social workers that need to be paid a living wage, but that’s the reality of where we are.

This is just unacceptable:

Circa Virginia Tech and Sandy Hook, we all felt that school violence was out of hand and needed addressing. Well, it’s WAY worse now than it was back then. And we’re all still waiting on leadership with the stones to actually make an unpopular decision in order to do something about it.

From recent memory… Uvalde was such a fu^king disgrace.

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

Kent State. Jackson State, Wounded Knee...

U Texas Tower shooting. 1940 Pasadena school shooting, 1960 Hartford IN shooting, 1966 Mesa AZ shooting.....etc..

 

[Svechhammer]

While there are a certain number of people who come out of the womb that way, it seems that a lot of these shooters and other violent criminals aren’t just irredeemable nutcase supervillains. A good number of them are coming out of environments where they aren’t receiving meaningful treatment, and in many cases their home life is unstable or neglectful. I’m not so sure there’s really A root cause in those cases… more like a root system where contributing factors add up over time.

Ideally we’d operate our society in such a way that homes lives are more stable, and schools are more orderly and enriching, and mental illness can be identified and treated early. There are a bunch of root issues that need to be addressed in those areas.

One thing that really needs to be done, and done yesterday, is to get serious about identifying and treating students for mental illness. I don’t think a lot of people are going to like what that means in practice, because it involves an army of psychologists and social workers that need to be paid a living wage, but that’s the reality of where we are.

This is just unacceptable:

Listen, I was at one of those listed landmark shootings when it happened. I fully agree that something has to be done, and I fully agree that it has to start with mental health treatment.

But if we aren't going to do that, at least regulate how easy it is for someone to get a gun. In the case of VT where I was, the kid went downtown, got a weapon basically 48 hours before it happened and there was nothing anyone could legally do to stop it. The school knew he was f***ed in the head, the warning signs were there and documented but because of laws and regulations in place they legally could not do anything about it.

So I'm not surprised to see it continuing. The same problems that existed in 2007 exist today, and we have done absolutely nothing to try and fix anything while at the same time saying we have run out of ideas.

 

[Unsustainable]

While there are a certain number of people who come out of the womb that way, it seems that a lot of these shooters and other violent criminals aren’t just irredeemable nutcase supervillains. A good number of them are coming out of environments where they aren’t receiving meaningful treatment, and in many cases their home life is unstable or neglectful. I’m not so sure there’s really A root cause in those cases… more like a root system where contributing factors add up over time.

Ideally we’d operate our society in such a way that homes lives are more stable, and schools are more orderly and enriching, and mental illness can be identified and treated early. There are a bunch of root issues that need to be addressed in those areas.

One thing that really needs to be done, and done yesterday, is to get serious about identifying and treating students for mental illness. I don’t think a lot of people are going to like what that means in practice, because it involves an army of psychologists and social workers that need to be paid a living wage, but that’s the reality of where we are.

This is just unacceptable:

Circa Virginia Tech and Sandy Hook, we all felt that school violence was out of hand and needed addressing. Well, it’s WAY worse now than it was back then. And we’re all still waiting on leadership with the stones to actually make an unpopular decision in order to do something about it.

I think what constitutes as a school shooting definition has changed, ie a shootings 2 blocks away not involving anyone at a school is being counted since it was in proximity.