How would we blow it all up?

[Tatar Shots]

Let me preface this thread by stating that I have never been in the tear it all down and rebuild camp. I just wanted to discuss how possible a full blown rebuild would actually be for this team.

Our most valuable assets that we would look to trade away in a scorched earth rebuild would be Tatar (even though he has been brutal this year) and Nyquist. Both skilled wingers that teams would look to acquire to add secondary scoring to their roster. But besides for these two, who else would other teams actually look to acquire?

Abdelkader has 6 more years after this season and I doubt there is any interest at all in that contract. It is nowhere near comparable to other players of his caliber and skill set.
Helm has 4 more years after this season and might draw mild interest from other teams.
Nielsen Could probably be moved if the team told him they decided to finally blow it up, apologize to him, and it wouldn't be to hard to trade him to the Islanders.
Zetterberg has 4 more years left on his contract and could be an incredibly hard sell to fans to trade, not to mention to other teams with his bad back and age.
Vanek Could be moved as a rental at the deadline easily.

Other forwards (Larkin, AA, Mantha are very unlikely to be moved during a full rebuild. While Sheahan, Glendening, Jurco don't really have much value and don't really impact whether the team wins or not. Could be traded away but doesn't make much of a difference.

On defense we have:

Green There would definitely be strong interest in him and could rather easily be moved
Dekeyser Signed for 5 more years after this one. Could be interest for him but would probably be best kept to continue to just eat minutes through a rebuild.
Kronwall Knees are shot and has 2 more years, can't see much interest out there.
Ericsson While he has been better this year, he will always be hampered by injuries and with 3 more years on his contract. I can't see there being anyone interested.
Smith Would likely be easy to move him at the deadline
Marchenko, Sproul, Ouellet Wouldn't have much value and would likely stick around through a rebuild.

And in net we have Howard and Mrazek. Could be some interest in Howard by Vegas or a team that is getting desperate for a better starter. Mrazek would likely stick around through a rebuild.

So lets say the team does try and go full rebuild and Nyquist, Tatar, Nielsen, Green, and Howard are moved. That would leave the team with something along the lines of:

Athanasiou - Zetterberg - Abdelkader
Mantha - Larkin - Sheahan
Jurco - Helm - Bertuzzi
xxx - Glendening - xxx
(Almost certainly would be some cap dumps mixed in here)

Dekeyser - Marchenko
Ericsson - Sproul
Kronwall - Ouellet
(Russo likely 7th d filling in for Kronwall)
Mrazek
Coreau

So after all of this, my question is, how much worse would trading what few valuable assets we have actually make us? The defense would be a bit worse without Green, but not much worse than the inability to transition this team already struggles with. We would lose quite a bit of depth at forward, but would be replacing Tatar and Nyquist with bigger roles to Athanasiou and Mantha. Probably not to big of a drop off. Biggest depth loss would be not having Nielsen at center. No doubt the team would be worse off, but this still doesn't look bad enough to finish bottom 3.

Anyways, my main point is that even if Holland wanted to blow it all up, (almost certainly not with the new arena on the way) he has made it nearly impossible to do so with all of the long term contracts he has signed.

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[Run the Jewels]

There was a time to make the transition to becoming good again. It involved trading Howie, Abby and Helm before they signed their crippling new deals. Of course everyone swore up and down that those guys were worth their contracts and if you didn't sign them you basically wanted to be the Edmonton Oilers and be terrible for at least a decade. Yes, Jimmy Howard, Justin Abdelkader and Darren Helm were the keys to preventing us from sliding into the depths of the worst teams in the NHL.

It was a strawman but who really has time to continue having those conversations? Ken Holland did his best to maintain the status quo and hope it would keep the playoff streak alive. Once his contract is over it's no longer his concern and the bottom will truly fall out with all those awful contracts and pretty much none of the first round picks they held onto turning into elite players.

The irony of course is we're 5 years into retooling on the fly - if you begin when Nick Lidstrom retired - and there's no end in sight to seeing some point in the future where we emerge as a team that can compete for a conference, division or presidents trophy. Ken Holland himself said this past offseason that if you are talking about Stanley Cups you are in the wrong league. The translation from Holland-speak is he has no confidence this team can compete with the rest of the league.

There's an old saying that pride comes before the fall. The people who said they didn't want to blow it up or rebuild were talking from pride. The Wings have absolutely no say about needing to rebuild. Not with a roster loaded with awful contracts and no prospect pool that can eventually develop into an elite core.

Depending on what happens after Holland retires we may become competitive again in 2022 or 2023. That's the best case scenario though, it could take much longer if we don't get high draft picks and draft elite talent.

 

[Flowah]

1. Trade away guys like Howie, Abby, Helm. I'd add Sheahan and Jurco in there too at this point. Even if the return isn't great, who cares. They don't seem to be part of the future and the future is a long way away.

2. Be the new dumping ground for teams needing cap relief. Take picks/prospects for being that.

3. Tell Blashill his new mission is to develop players, like he's already done in GR. No focus on playoffs, all focus on molding the players to play in the NHL. Reduce minutes for veterans, see if the kids that we've identified as core players are worth anything at all. See if Sproul can handle 1PP. Give Larking 20 games as 1C. See if AA can handle middle6 C duties. *Stop playing Zetterberg 20 minutes a night or whatever ********.*

4. Honestly, unless Mrazek goes full beast mode, he could even be on the chopping block. Coreau looks pretty decent and I've never been a fan of relying on goalies. We can win with Osgood. Hawks can win with Niemi. You don't need anything approaching Carey Price. What you need is a top notch team and a goalie who won't suck donkey balls. Goalies go hot and cold too often and when they're cold you are really **** out of luck. There's no "depth" there. If Larkin goes cold there's at least 2 other lines who can do something. If a goalie goes cold it's 2-3 goals into the net and good luck climbing out. Goalie reliance sucks.

All focus now should be on development and core identification. Find out who's the future and who's not. Forget playoffs. If we make it, fine. If we don't, who cares? This is the cap era NHL. Lock up core, trade away non-core, surround core with rotating group of cheap veterans and ELC/RFA contracts. Rinse, repeat.

So far the Wing's plan has been "sign non-difference makers like Abby, Helm to long term, expensive contracts." Whoopeeeee.

 

[Frk It]

-Trade Mike Green and we have the worst defensive unit in the NHL by a mile.

-Trade Mrazek because he has trade value and you can.

-Trade Howard on 50% salary retention or bury him in GR.

-Ask for a scrub backup goalie in one of the 3 deals mentioned above, or sign a UFA goalie journeyman looking for work. Let Coreau be the other goalie. Play whatever goalie does worse.

IMO you do this and you get an easy top 5-10 pick. Without touching the forwards. And even with the long term deals we have to so-so players.

I do not think this is the draft class to do this for, but maybe next year.

 

[InGusWeTrust]

-Trade Mike Green and we have the worst defensive unit in the NHL by a mile.

-Trade Mrazek because he has trade value and you can.

-Trade Howard on 50% salary retention or bury him in GR.

-Ask for a scrub backup goalie in one of the 3 deals mentioned above, or sign a UFA goalie journeyman looking for work. Let Coreau be the other goalie. Play whatever goalie does worse.

IMO you do this and you get an easy top 5-10 pick. Without touching the forwards. And even with the long term deals we have to so-so players.

I do not think this is the draft class to do this for, but maybe next year.

I think you try and wait just because it is one less year on all of our bad contracts, maybe a team might bite on them eventually Then you add in what talent is coming in the draft. When is the next Crosby/Ovechkin/McDavid due?

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

Blow it up right.

Trade Nyquist, Tatar, Green, Smith, Vanek, for prospects and picks.

If you can get ANYTHING for Helm, Abdelkader, Ericsson, Howard, trade them.

You can let Z and Kronwall retire here, they deserve it. Mrazek and Larkin are the future of the team. I'm willing to let Sheahan and Jurco keep working and develop here. Keep Dekeyser for a bit.

Just load up with kids and picks for upcoming drafts.

 

[Frk It]

Blow it up right.

Trade Nyquist, Tatar, Green, Smith, Vanek, for prospects and picks.

If you can get ANYTHING for Helm, Abdelkader, Ericsson, Howard, trade them.

You can let Z and Kronwall retire here, they deserve it. Mrazek and Larkin are the future of the team. I'm willing to let Sheahan and Jurco keep working and develop here. Keep Dekeyser for a bit.

Just load up with kids and picks for upcoming drafts.

Depends if you think we need multiple years of drafting high, or just 1. If you think it is the former, then I might go this route.

I'm not sure trading Nyquist and Tatar makes sense, because I'm not sure you would return a better player with the draft pick or prospect you would get for them. Odds don't really seem great to me there. And it's not like they cost a ton.

 

[Tatar Shots]

Depends if you think we need multiple years of drafting high, or just 1. If you think it is the former, then I might go this route.

I'm not sure trading Nyquist and Tatar makes sense, because I'm not sure you would return a better player with the draft pick or prospect you would get for them. Odds don't really seem great to me there. And it's not like they cost a ton.

The point of trading Nyquist and Tatar would be to fall further in the standings. Its not the late first round picks that are especially valuable, its making your team worse enough that you get to draft potential stars. You then hope that if everything pans out right, the stars you draft are surrounded by talented secondary options to fill out the roster.

 

[Frk It]

The point of trading Nyquist and Tatar would be to fall further in the standings. Its not the late first round picks that are especially valuable, its making your team worse enough that you get to draft potential stars. You then hope that if everything pans out right, the stars you draft are surrounded by talented secondary options to fill out the roster.

Trade Mike Green and put a bum in net and it doesn't matter if you have them in your top 6. They're not gonna save you from being bad. They're not saving us from anything right now.

 

[Tatar Shots]

Trade Mike Green and put a bum in net and it doesn't matter if you have them in your top 6. They're not gonna save you from being bad. They're not saving us from anything right now.

Right but they likely stop you from being bad enough to finish bottom 3.

It also sucks how the draft rules changed just as we start being really bad

 

[Frk It]

Right but they likely stop you from being bad enough to finish bottom 3.

It also sucks how the draft rules changed just as we start being really bad

I really, really doubt that. But we can agree to disagree.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

the time to properly rebuild on the fly was this past june and holland blew it

the second stamkos and his agent could not or would not 100% commit to detroit was the second I would have said "its over." I would have held onto datsyuks contract and drafted Church, not resigned helm and miller and bought out JE or JH and traded smith for any draft pick i could. Vanek signing was good and i would have gone after a tough guy to really protect larkin and mantha and AA

NOW we need to
-trade green at the deadline and very likely get a 1st plus for him
-trade smith at the deadline for a 4th at best
-trade vanek at the deadline for a 2nd and maybe more
-waive miller
-dump marchenko back to GR
-buyout JE in the offseason and hope to lose 1 of helm, abby or howard to expansion

 

[Tatar Shots]

I really, really doubt that. But we can agree to disagree.

Fair enough. You could very well be right. It's just when I look at recent bottom 3 teams there forward groups are a decent amount worse than we would be if we kept Tatar and Nyquist in addition to everyone else. Though they are not exactly doing anything to prove me right right now

 

[njx9]

Smith is unmoveable - no one is going to give you anything for the worst defenseman on the league's worst defense. I don't understand why anyone thinks otherwise. If we were really going full tank, we'd want him on our top pair, anyways.

 

[Tatar Shots]

Smith is unmoveable - no one is going to give you anything for the worst defenseman on the league's worst defense. I don't understand why anyone thinks otherwise. If we were really going full tank, we'd want him on our top pair, anyways.

Not true. Look at recent history at the deadline. Teams are more than willing to give up a 2nd round pick to get a third pairing Dman.

 

[njx9]

Not true. Look at recent history at the deadline. Teams are more than willing to give up a 2nd round pick to get a third pairing Dman.

He's not a 3rd pairing defender for any other team in the league. Again, if we, the league's worst defense by a mile, hate him and want him gone, why would anyone else in the league possibly want to touch him, let alone for anything of any remote value? No one else wants our garbage.

 

[Reddwit]

-Trade Mike Green and we have the worst defensive unit in the NHL by a mile.

-Trade Mrazek because he has trade value and you can.

-Trade Howard on 50% salary retention or bury him in GR.

-Ask for a scrub backup goalie in one of the 3 deals mentioned above, or sign a UFA goalie journeyman looking for work. Let Coreau be the other goalie. Play whatever goalie does worse.

IMO you do this and you get an easy top 5-10 pick. Without touching the forwards. And even with the long term deals we have to so-so players.

I do not think this is the draft class to do this for, but maybe next year.

I really like this plan. Gut our goaltending, and we don't have anywhere near a good enough defense (or defensive forwards) to make it out alive. Although I'm not sure that Mrazek has that much value.

If Jimmy continues to play well, I think you could find a taker this summer if you retain $1-2M.

Edmonton fans keep on yammering on about wanting a RHD PPQB. If Green continues to play well and Edmonton continues to look like a playoff team, I think you can get their late 1st round pick for Green with $1-1.5M retained at the deadline or or at the draft.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Smith is unmoveable - no one is going to give you anything for the worst defenseman on the league's worst defense. I don't understand why anyone thinks otherwise. If we were really going full tank, we'd want him on our top pair, anyways.

Disagree i'm pretty sure that a contending team would give up a 2nd or 3rd for Smith at the TDL. He's still a decent 3rd pairing D man pretty sure quite a few teams would trade for Smith.

 

[Frk It]

Fair enough. You could very well be right. It's just when I look at recent bottom 3 teams there forward groups are a decent amount worse than we would be if we kept Tatar and Nyquist in addition to everyone else. Though they are not exactly doing anything to prove me right right now

Jets got a #2 pick with Schiefele and Wheeler, Tampa got a #3 pick with Stamkos and St. Louis.

I think we would be fine.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

I'd trip over myself if we got Nolan Patrick.

 

[Tatar Shots]

Jets got a #2 pick with Schiefele and Wheeler, Tampa got a #3 pick with Stamkos and St. Louis.

I think we would be fine.

Yea you are right. Just need a little luck

 

[InjuredChoker]

Jets got a #2 pick with Schiefele and Wheeler, Tampa got a #3 pick with Stamkos and St. Louis.

I think we would be fine.

jets won in the lottery for #2. they were better in the standings.

 

[Retire91]

Wait a minute is there a general consensus now that this team is a dumpster fire and a rebuild was needed? Is there going to be a general apology to the posters that said this was coming for the last 5 years and got piled on for being too negative.

Any move towards getting better starts by getting rid of Holland or promoting him out of a roll of decision making. I don't know who you replace him with but I do know the team doesn't improve under his watch.

Any blowing of the team up needs to start with moving on from Holland.

Need to trade away all these negative value contracts like Howie, Abby, Helm Zetterberg, Kronwall even if you have to send picks with them, they must be gotten rid of at all costs.
Trade away or bury middling veterans like Green, Vanek that serve no purpose other than getting into the playoffs and getting destroyed in the first round.
Trade some players that are good but no longer considered core players because their primes will come and go by the time the rebuild starts working. Tartar Nyquist
Start loading up on picks and stop wasting them on rentals. Start drafting more D and higher in the draft.
Build around Larkin and Mrazek and DD to some respect

That should about do it.

 

[njx9]

Disagree i'm pretty sure that a contending team would give up a 2nd or 3rd for Smith at the TDL. He's still a decent 3rd pairing D man pretty sure quite a few teams would trade for Smith.

I really, really want you to be right. That said, Smith is terrible. He's our worst regular defenseman according to basically every Wings fan, right? I don't see any reason any other team gives up anything for that. We won't be the only team with a bad defender for sale, and teams have watched Smith be mostly bad or benched for several years. I will concede that his contract makes him slightly more valuable, since it expires, but I still don't see anyone giving up a draft pick for him.

(This is all ignoring that I don't think there's any chance KH would be a TDL seller in the first place.)

 

[Tatar Shots]

I really, really want you to be right. That said, Smith is terrible. He's our worst regular defenseman according to basically every Wings fan, right? I don't see any reason any other team gives up anything for that. We won't be the only team with a bad defender for sale, and teams have watched Smith be mostly bad or benched for several years. I will concede that his contract makes him slightly more valuable, since it expires, but I still don't see anyone giving up a draft pick for him.

(This is all ignoring that I don't think there's any chance KH would be a TDL seller in the first place.)

Also Smith has shown very well in the playoffs. I'm sure other GMs have taken notice and would be willing to give up a pick to put him on their 3rd pairing.