How will Erik Karlsson be remembered?

[sr edler]

He had 4 points tonight but was still –1 for the game, all 11 goals in the game were ES. One empty netter against, but still. I watched the extended highlights and Karlsson looked absolutely terrible on Pius Suter's 6-4 goal with around 3:45 to go, just looking lazy and letting the guy sweep by way too easily. That's a 1-goal game with almost 4 minutes to go, and he's doing that lethargic act again.

I'll just point out that I'm not one of these "lol the guy's always been awful defensively" type of people, because I think he's showed at various times during his career (2014 Olympics, 2017 SC playoffs, et cetera) that he can be good enough defensively if he wants to. Not necessarily great defensively or some shutdown guy, but good enough.

To me it just doesn't look like he's enjoying the D game very much, or that he takes a ton of pride in it. Sometimes it's almost like he's got this "why are we even in the D-zone in the first place, this isn't fun" type of body language.

A dialed-in Karlsson who cares defensively is obviously an incredible player though and will remembered fondly.

 

[JianYang]

One of the most high event players ever.... And I mean that as a both a compliment and a criticism.

 

[Leafshater67]

Honestly, I always thought Mike Green had the better offensive season in that timeframe. Hell, I'll even venture to say he'd have been the better offensive D if he doesn't get injured.

2009: 31-42-73 in 68 games, age 23
2010: 19-57-76 in 75 games, age 24

Then misses ~130 games over the next 3 seasons from injuries and is never the same player.

Green did that on an offensive powerhouse with a stacked lineup of offensive stars like Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin (40 goal man back then) ect.

Karlsson drug a bottom feeder to the playoffs single handedly and almost carried them to the finals as an offensive D.

Not taking away from Green’s seasons because they were fun to watch but I thought Karlsson was quite a bit more impressive. He was a driver, not a passenger and carried play every single time he was on the ice. IMO, he was the most dominant offensive dman I’ve ever seen play in the last 20+ years.

I’m sure if you put a prime, pre injury Karlsson on that team, in those positions like Green, he would have hit 90 points for sure and possibly more.

 

[MadLuke]

Scoring was significantly higher (specially on the caps) than during Karlsson peak, we have not fully integrated in our mind that Karlsson peak saw scoring lower than the worst of the dpe at the top of the nhl.

Season	referencePPG
20212022	1.22
20202021	1.11
20192020	1.03
20182019	1.16
20172018	1.09
20162017	0.9
20152016	0.9
20142015	0.88
20132014	1.03
20122013	1.09
20112012	0.97
20102011	1.05
20092010	1.01
20082009	1.02
20072008	1.09
20062007	1.24
20052006	1.13
20032004	0.91
20022003	0.99
20012002	0.96
20002001	1.04
19992000	1.04
19981999	0.94
19971998	0.98
19961997	1.11
19951996	1.31
19941995	1.1
19931994	1.27
19921993	1.46
19911992	1.3
19901991	1.35

in 2015-2016 when Karlsson scored 82 that was the same has Joe Thornton-Crosby, that season was a special season from Patrick Kane away to have 0 90 points scorer like we were in 2003-2004 all over again.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Many players have that sort of "oasis" big year in their 30s.

Larry Robinson in 1986
Joe Thornton in 2016
Jaromir Jagr in 2006
Mark Messier in 1996
Paul Coffey in 1995
Al MacInnis in 1999
Alex Ovechkin last year (2022)

Those are just a few that comes to mind, but it's a career pattern I've seen many times where the player looks rejuvenated and back to his prime days.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Many players have that sort of "oasis" big year in their 30s.

Larry Robinson in 1986
Joe Thornton in 2016
Jaromir Jagr in 2006
Mark Messier in 1996
Paul Coffey in 1995
Al MacInnis in 1999
Alex Ovechkin last year (2022)

Those are just a few that comes to mind, but it's a career pattern I've seen many times where the player looks rejuvenated and back to his prime days.

i don't agree with all those examples (macinnis had an even better year in 2003) but there does seem to be one most years doesn't there?

2014 marleau
2015 sedins
2016 thornton
2018 eric staal
2019 toews
last year pavelski

 

[markymarc1215]

Many players have that sort of "oasis" big year in their 30s.

Larry Robinson in 1986
Joe Thornton in 2016
Jaromir Jagr in 2006
Mark Messier in 1996
Paul Coffey in 1995
Al MacInnis in 1999
Alex Ovechkin last year (2022)

Those are just a few that comes to mind, but it's a career pattern I've seen many times where the player looks rejuvenated and back to his prime days.

I'd add Leetch in 2002 as well.

Erik Karlsson will end up being the best known offensive defenseman of the 2010s. No cup but lots of respect.

 

[Buffalowing1988]

Green did that on an offensive powerhouse with a stacked lineup of offensive stars like Ovechkin, Backstrom, Semin (40 goal man back then) ect.

Karlsson drug a bottom feeder to the playoffs single handedly and almost carried them to the finals as an offensive D.

Not taking away from Green’s seasons because they were fun to watch but I thought Karlsson was quite a bit more impressive. He was a driver, not a passenger and carried play every single time he was on the ice. IMO, he was the most dominant offensive dman I’ve ever seen play in the last 20+ years.

I’m sure if you put a prime, pre injury Karlsson on that team, in those positions like Green, he would have hit 90 points for sure and possibly more.

Interesting points. I'll focus on the him dragging a bottom feeder to the playoffs/a deep run.

In my mind, that was Karlsson's perfect role. I don't think he would have conformed well with better teams and unlike a say, Letang, I don't think he would have known when to distribute as to when to carry it himself. This year will certainly be the outlier because we have seen in SJ already that he doesn't mesh entirely when the team has a better lineup.

Idk, at the end of the day, is he in the realm of great defensemen we expected him to join 5-10 years ago? Not in my book.

 

[JianYang]

A Hall of Famer. No doubt. Not the best defenseman of his generation though, but probably the most offensive one. There was a time when he definitely had a trajectory that was higher than he ended up. He isn't done of course, but maybe is done as an elite d-man.

Yeah, I think thats fair. In his prime, he was a high event player. Most likely, he was going to do something special for his team with the puck, or sometimes, he was going to cost his team with a weird decision.

 

[Matsun]

What timing I had when I made this thread, gonna pat myself on the back for that. So Karlsson had a pretty epic bounceback season and made sure that he wont be forgotten anytime soon. Having said that we are in an insane period for offensive d-men so I wouldn't be shocked at all to see more 100 point seasons from others soon. This season though should further cement Karlsson in the top 3 offensive d-man category.

 

[frisco]

A rich man's Housley.

Who is currently 471 points ahead of Karlsson all-time.

My Best-Carey

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

As a poor man's Coffey. Worse both offensively and defensively

 

[seventieslord]

Who is currently 471 points ahead of Karlsson all-time.

My Best-Carey

You must be joking

Housley's VsX against all players in the league, including forwards, 3y, 5y, 7y, 10y:
71-69-67-65

Same for Karlsson:
89-85-81-69

Housley's VsX against defensemen only, 3y, 5y, 7y, 10y:
107-103-101-98

Same for Karlsson:
139-133-124-108

Housley's best ten leaguewide rankings in points among defensemen:
1-2-2-4-4-4-5-5-5-5

Same for Karlsson:
1- 1-1-1-1-3-6-17-18-18

Housley's adjusted points, best 10 seasons:
79-76-75-68-68-64-62-61-60-57

Same for Karlsson:
97-92-86-82-78-73-63-48-47-45

This is like comparing Marcel Dionne to Mario Lemieux, offensively. In the same way that Lemieux is just three injuries away from having better 8th, 9th and 10th-best seasons than Dionne, the same can easily be said for Karlsson with regards to Housley. But we have seen enough to know - he's better: offensively, defensively, overall. Regular season, playoffs, whatever you want.

I know this was entirely an "offensive" comparison, but that's honestly what it is to even make it in the first place - offensive.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Probably not even adjusting for Housley's time at forward, eh?

 

[seventieslord]

Probably not even adjusting for Housley's time at forward, eh?

Nope, I've never been able to. Can't seem to get a definitive answer of how long he did it for.

It doesn't bother me all that much because of the lack of a noticeable spike or evidence that being a forward made his numbers any better.

 

[frisco]

You must be joking.

Housley's best ten leaguewide rankings in points among defensemen:
1-2-2-4-4-4-5-5-5-5

Same for Karlsson:
1- 1-1-1-1-3-6-17-18-18

Well, no matter how you might want to slice the numbers 1232 - 761 = 471. That's a fact despite how one feels about things.

Karlsson average top 10 finish: Karlsson = 6.6. Housley = 3.2. Karlsson had some big seasons offensively, but Housley was more consistent.

I won't bring the fact that Karlsson's main competition has usually been Brent Burns or Mike Green, rather than Ray Bourque, Paul Coffey, Chris Chelios, Larry Murphy, Doug Wilson, etc., like Housley was contending with his whole career.

I mean what was more impressive, Karlsson's 3rd place showing in 2017 or Housley 4th place in 1984?

2017 D-man scoring: 1) Burns-77, 2) Hedman-72, 3) Karlsson-71, 4) Shattenkirk-56.

1984 D-man scoring: 1) Coffey 126, 2) Bourque-96, 3) Potvin-85, 4) Housley-77.

My Best-Carey

 

[Michael Farkas]

Nope, I've never been able to. Can't seem to get a definitive answer of how long he did it for.

It doesn't bother me all that much because of the lack of a noticeable spike or evidence that being a forward made his numbers any better.

Yeah, it doesn't bother me much either. He probably played the same level of defense anyhow. But looking at G:A ratios and shooting percentage, probably pretty fair to say that 1984, 1988, and 1989 he played wing often. Lindy Ruff had significant shoulder injuries around that time.

I'll put on a couple of Sabres games before I go to bed for the next little while and see if they mentioned it on the broadcast. There's 2,000 more whistles per game back in those days because if the puck touched the boards, it's like that game Operation. So there's a lot of chitter chatter...

 

[Professor What]

Well, no matter how you might want to slice the numbers 1232 - 761 = 471. That's a fact despite how one feels about things.

Karlsson average top 10 finish: Karlsson = 6.6. Housley = 3.2. Karlsson had some big seasons offensively, but Housley was more consistent.

I won't bring the fact that Karlsson's main competition has usually been Brent Burns or Mike Green, rather than Ray Bourque, Paul Coffey, Chris Chelios, Larry Murphy, Doug Wilson, etc., like Housley was contending with his whole career.

I mean what was more impressive, Karlsson's 3rd place showing in 2017 or Housley 4th place in 1984?

2017 D-man scoring: 1) Burns-77, 2) Hedman-72, 3) Karlsson-71, 4) Shattenkirk-56.

1984 D-man scoring: 1) Coffey 126, 2) Bourque-96, 3) Potvin-85, 4) Housley-77.

My Best-Carey

I'll take Karlsson's 2017 over Housley's 1984 rather easily. Scoring rates have been talked about around here ad nauseum, but that has to be brought up in this comparison. Not to mention that the 2016-17 season is one of the times in Karlsson's career that even his critics tend to admit that he played a more solid defensive game. Was Karlsson's competition in 2017 as tough? No. But he also didn't get lapped by them offensively, and I'll go to my grave believing that he was robbed of that Norris.

 

[Staniowski]

I don't think Housley played much forward...he did play some, but it would be a pretty small percentage of his career, probably less than Reinhart did. And I wouldn't assume he scored more playing forward anyway.

Obviously most people are going to favour Karlsson in a comparison, but Housley was pretty slick, one of the '80s guys who'd probably be more prominent in today's league (like Loob and others).

Housley would probably easily score 100 points on this year's Oilers, and probably on some other teams too. Certainly he would score a lot, whatever it would be.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

Well, no matter how you might want to slice the numbers 1232 - 761 = 471. That's a fact despite how one feels about things.

Karlsson average top 10 finish: Karlsson = 6.6. Housley = 3.2. Karlsson had some big seasons offensively, but Housley was more consistent.

I won't bring the fact that Karlsson's main competition has usually been Brent Burns or Mike Green, rather than Ray Bourque, Paul Coffey, Chris Chelios, Larry Murphy, Doug Wilson, etc., like Housley was contending with his whole career.

I mean what was more impressive, Karlsson's 3rd place showing in 2017 or Housley 4th place in 1984?

2017 D-man scoring: 1) Burns-77, 2) Hedman-72, 3) Karlsson-71, 4) Shattenkirk-56.

1984 D-man scoring: 1) Coffey 126, 2) Bourque-96, 3) Potvin-85, 4) Housley-77.

My Best-Carey

I must admit, it took the longest time for me to get what the hell you’re smoking in some debates, but I’ve come to appreciate your contributions to the HoH for being perhaps the most consistent champion of longevity, consistency and durability in the face of every asshole talking peaks and prime and wanting to convolute numbers by comparing eras and utilization and whatnot.

I actually mean that sincerely, these discussions have a tendency to turn into echo chambers sometimes, and arguments like yours are indeed pretty unique.

Like Karlsson’s 2017 as compared to Housley 1984…

Housley I think led his team in points twice, both times later on in Winnipeg, and they would be interesting seasons to have a closer look at. The one year — his only post-season allstar nod — he led the team in points in a big way.

That Housley had tougher competition for the Norris and stuff than Karlsson, valid enough. I just struggle to place Housley in the competition most of the time: where was he in the races with Coffey and Bourque? Right there or a mile behind?

2017 Karlsson, yes, he was 3rd in scoring behind Burns and Hedman. Housley was 4th behind Coffey, Bourque, and Potvin in defenseman scoring in 1984, so yeah, big big names, tough competition. But he was closer in scoring to 5th place Brad Maxwell, a name I learned just now, than any of them. He was 3rd on his team, 46th in the league.

2017 Karlsson was right there offensively, 5 points off Burns in his career year despite 5 fewer games, 17th in the league while leading his team in scoring by 10 points and actually playing good defense. It’s such an odd season to display as a mediocre one for Karlsson: the year before he not only led all defensemen in points, but he finished fourth in scoring period. Coffey and Orr are the only ones to fare better in the scoring race as defensemen. However, he had a lot of detractors calling out his defense for being poor, and he lost the Norris to a defenseman with a more well rounded game in Drew Doughty. In 2016-17, Karlsson stepped up, continued to carry the team offensively, but also committed defensively, finishing 2nd (behind Kris Russell) in blocked shots among other things. Add his run the following postseason… good year for Karlsson.

But yeah, I don’t see it likely that Karlsson matches Housley’s 1200+ career points so.

 

[Dingo]

Well, no matter how you might want to slice the numbers 1232 - 761 = 471. That's a fact despite how one feels about things.

Karlsson average top 10 finish: Karlsson = 6.6. Housley = 3.2. Karlsson had some big seasons offensively, but Housley was more consistent.

I won't bring the fact that Karlsson's main competition has usually been Brent Burns or Mike Green, rather than Ray Bourque, Paul Coffey, Chris Chelios, Larry Murphy, Doug Wilson, etc., like Housley was contending with his whole career.

I mean what was more impressive, Karlsson's 3rd place showing in 2017 or Housley 4th place in 1984?

2017 D-man scoring: 1) Burns-77, 2) Hedman-72, 3) Karlsson-71, 4) Shattenkirk-56.

1984 D-man scoring: 1) Coffey 126, 2) Bourque-96, 3) Potvin-85, 4) Housley-77.

My Best-Carey

Well, as long as you are willing to call Crosby a poor man’s Francis, it works for me!

 

[BraveCanadian]

As a poor man's Coffey. Worse both offensively and defensively

Pretty much how I see it.

 

[frisco]

Granted, saying Housley is the equal of Karlsson is not the popular choice and I wouldn't really say Housley was better. But mostly I was taking some offence at the "rich man's Housley" statement and noting that Karlsson, while universally praised as a legend, and Housley. almost always ridiculed as a horrible HOF selection, that Housley does have some strong points. You just don't put up 1232 points in any era as a D-man without skill. I mean Karlsson has some runway left but he'd have to put up five more seasons like this one at age 33-34-35-36-37 to catch Housley in points.

BTW, Phil played forward maybe 35 games in his career. And even in those, he played point on the PP.

My Best-Carey

 

[MadLuke]

I am not sure about the insistence of comparing raw points totals between someone that had his prime in the 80s and early 90s versus someone that peaked in some of the lowest scoring season of all time in comparison.

Housley having really strong competition in some of his era is certainly true, but he played in the highest scoring era in the league history is also true.

Karlsson lead his team in scoring like 6 times was a couple of points of his third Top 10 points finish, had the iconic Conn Smythe playoff run, with an Hart conversation peak.

The offensive gap with Housley is maybe not a big one but still a clear one

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I must admit, it took the longest time for me to get what the hell you’re smoking in some debates, but I’ve come to appreciate your contributions to the HoH for being perhaps the most consistent champion of longevity, consistency and durability in the face of every asshole talking peaks and prime and wanting to convolute numbers by comparing eras and utilization and whatnot.

I actually mean that sincerely, these discussions have a tendency to turn into echo chambers sometimes, and arguments like yours are indeed pretty unique.

Like Karlsson’s 2017 as compared to Housley 1984…

Housley I think led his team in points twice, both times later on in Winnipeg, and they would be interesting seasons to have a closer look at. The one year — his only post-season allstar nod — he led the team in points in a big way.

That Housley had tougher competition for the Norris and stuff than Karlsson, valid enough. I just struggle to place Housley in the competition most of the time: where was he in the races with Coffey and Bourque? Right there or a mile behind?

2017 Karlsson, yes, he was 3rd in scoring behind Burns and Hedman. Housley was 4th behind Coffey, Bourque, and Potvin in defenseman scoring in 1984, so yeah, big big names, tough competition. But he was closer in scoring to 5th place Brad Maxwell, a name I learned just now, than any of them. He was 3rd on his team, 46th in the league.

2017 Karlsson was right there offensively, 5 points off Burns in his career year despite 5 fewer games, 17th in the league while leading his team in scoring by 10 points and actually playing good defense. It’s such an odd season to display as a mediocre one for Karlsson: the year before he not only led all defensemen in points, but he finished fourth in scoring period. Coffey and Orr are the only ones to fare better in the scoring race as defensemen. However, he had a lot of detractors calling out his defense for being poor, and he lost the Norris to a defenseman with a more well rounded game in Drew Doughty. In 2016-17, Karlsson stepped up, continued to carry the team offensively, but also committed defensively, finishing 2nd (behind Kris Russell) in blocked shots among other things. Add his run the following postseason… good year for Karlsson.

But yeah, I don’t see it likely that Karlsson matches Housley’s 1200+ career points so.

Hey, wait a minute....