How Ryan Hardy fits with Kyle Dubas and the Maple Leafs management team

[Stonehands1990]

Not sure what salary has to do with anything. Your initial claim was that TB added grit and toughness, I responded with names of recent Leafs acquisitions that meet that criteria as well.

While we've done this, it hasn't changed the results at all.

As stated before adding 4th liners and 3rd pair D men doesn’t make your team physical. They don’t play. You need more Hymans

I listed those players because we CHOOSE to pay marshmallow soft players. Cmon man

 

[Stonehands1990]

Not sure what salary has to do with anything. Your initial claim was that TB added grit and toughness, I responded with names of recent Leafs acquisitions that meet that criteria as well.

While we've done this, it hasn't changed the results at all.

I’m not sure how this keeps getting lost in translation but if Simmonds plays 8 minutes a game the physicality is lost for 52 minutes a game

Half of Tbay are physical

 

[Gallagbi]

As stated before adding 4th liners and 3rd pair D men doesn’t make your team physical. They don’t play. You need more Hymans

I listed those players because we CHOOSE to pay marshmallow soft players. Cmon man

And Tampa is paying Tyler Johnson, all 5'8 of him, to center their 4th line.

The Leafs also acquired Foligno to play in the top 6, Muzzin to play top 4. You could argue Brodie and simmonds should be classified above 4th liners as well.

Tampa got swept by CBJ, they didn't go out and overhaul their key spots with grit. They basically shuffled Callahan and JT Mjller for Coleman and Goodrow. Then added Bogo/Schenn as their 6B on D. Honestly what they lost in grit upfront is every bit as physical as what they gained.

 

[Stonehands1990]

And Tampa is paying Tyler Johnson, all 5'8 of him, to center their 4th line.

The Leafs also acquired Foligno to play in the top 6, Muzzin to play top 4. You could argue Brodie and simmonds should be classified above 4th liners as well.

Tampa got swept by CBJ, they didn't go out and overhaul their key spots with grit. They basically shuffled Callahan and JT Mjller for Coleman and Goodrow. Then added Bogo/Schenn as their 6B on D. Honestly what they lost in grit upfront is every bit as physical as what they gained.

It’s starting to look like the Muzzin acquisition was more of a fluke than anything. Kapanen starts fighting gets shipped immediately LOL

 

[Stonehands1990]

And Tampa is paying Tyler Johnson, all 5'8 of him, to center their 4th line.

The Leafs also acquired Foligno to play in the top 6, Muzzin to play top 4. You could argue Brodie and simmonds should be classified above 4th liners as well.

Tampa got swept by CBJ, they didn't go out and overhaul their key spots with grit. They basically shuffled Callahan and JT Mjller for Coleman and Goodrow. Then added Bogo/Schenn as their 6B on D. Honestly what they lost in grit upfront is every bit as physical as what they gained.

At no point do I think we should overhaul key spots with grit. BUT when you have a Kadri maybe get him anger management. I don’t see Washington tossing Wilson to the wolves and he’s worse

 

[Gallagbi]

It’s starting to look like the Muzzin acquisition was more of a fluke than anything. Kapanen starts fighting gets shipped immediately LOL

Yup, definitely fighting is what caused Kap to be traded. Especially when they replaced him with known softie (checks notes)...Wayne Simmonds

 

[Stonehands1990]

Yup, definitely fighting is what caused Kap to be traded. Especially when they replaced him with known softie (checks notes)...Wayne Simmonds

Who does Kapanen play with in Pittsburgh? Do you believe Simmonds is an adequate replacement?

I guess Simmonds could skate next to Geno, bury 20 and PK

 

[Gallagbi]

Who does Kapanen play with in Pittsburgh? Do you believe Simmonds is an adequate replacement?

I guess Simmonds could skate next to Geno, bury 20 and PK

I think Kap has 10 points over 31 career playoff games. I'm fine with calling him an upgrade on Simmonds, but if we want to blame his departure on fighting we should probably think through that claim a little harder.

 

[Stonehands1990]

I think Kap has 10 points over 31 career playoff games. I'm fine with calling him an upgrade on Simmonds, but if we want to blame his departure on fighting we should probably think through that claim a little harder.

He was a cap casualty. But he’s a perfect example of someone who developed a gritty side to their game and is now gone. I’d honestly rather have Kapanen, 8 million in cap space and the 4 1sts of a Marner offer sheet

 

[Gallagbi]

He was a cap casualty. But he’s a perfect example of someone who developed a gritty side to their game and is now gone. I’d honestly rather have Kapanen, 8 million in cap space and the 4 1sts of a Marner offer sheet

Cool, he was also replaced by a tougher, more physical, albeit less skilled player.

 

[Stonehands1990]

Cool, he was also replaced by a tougher, more physical, albeit less skilled player.

Really? Last I checked Simmonds was on our 4th line. Interesting how he’s Kap’s replacement

 

[Gallagbi]

Really? Last I checked Simmonds was on our 4th line. Interesting how he’s Kap’s replacement

Both spent the majority of their seasons on 3rd line RW. I guess you could go Foligno instead if you want, but it's not helping your case.

Simmonds most common line in the playoffs was with Mik and Engvall by the way. Kap was Kerfoot and Robertson. Both our third lines

 

[SeaOfBlue]

At no point do I think we should overhaul key spots with grit. BUT when you have a Kadri maybe get him anger management. I don’t see Washington tossing Wilson to the wolves and he’s worse

Kadri is a lost cause, and I am sure Washington is fed up with Wilson by now too... But at least he won a Cup for them first.

Leafs need to take out guys like Simmonds and add grit guys who can do other things. That way you have a reason to put Simmonds out there for more than 8 minutes a game. Tampa is not putting out physical guys just so they can hit. That is why they dumped Erne, Callaghan, etc. in the first place. They want them to score, or at least prevent the other team from scoring while their scorers rest. If Simmonds can't do any of that, and really he could not, then why should he play more?

And you don't even need to pay a lot for those guys. They are out there, and many of them are not overly expensive either. We've got Mikheyev, Semyonov, Brooks, Anderson, Simmonds, and Spezza for our 4th line. I think we are fine in that area. Mikheyev or Anderson may even play 3rd line.

So you need a couple of guys, and there are some solid options. Foligno, local guys like McGinn and Goodrow, guys like Armia, etc. None of them are earth shattering, but they should give an honest and consistent effort in a bottom 6, and then you just look for some guys who can outperform expectations a little bit.

 

[Stonehands1990]

Kadri is a lost cause, and I am sure Washington is fed up with Wilson by now too... But at least he won a Cup for them first.

Leafs need to take out guys like Simmonds and add grit guys who can do other things. That way you have a reason to put Simmonds out there for more than 8 minutes a game. Tampa is not putting out physical guys just so they can hit. That is why they dumped Erne, Callaghan, etc. in the first place. They want them to score, or at least prevent the other team from scoring while their scorers rest. If Simmonds can't do any of that, and really he could not, then why should he play more?

And you don't even need to pay a lot for those guys. They are out there, and many of them are not overly expensive either. We've got Mikheyev, Semyonov, Brooks, Anderson, Simmonds, and Spezza for our 4th line. I think we are fine in that area. Mikheyev or Anderson may even play 3rd line.

So you need a couple of guys, and there are some solid options. Foligno, local guys like McGinn and Goodrow, guys like Armia, etc. None of them are earth shattering, but they should give an honest and consistent effort in a bottom 6, and then you just look for some guys who can outperform expectations a little bit.

Disagree on Kadri. I’ve been in his position being the only gritty guy on a soft team playing against a dirty team like Boston. You lose your shit

this year was bad luck he missed a shoulder check by 3 inches and got head. Kadri won’t be suspended in the playoffs again after this

 

[Stonehands1990]

Both spent the majority of their seasons on 3rd line RW. I guess you could go Foligno instead if you want, but it's not helping your case.

Simmonds most common line in the playoffs was with Mik and Engvall by the way. Kap was Kerfoot and Robertson. Both our third lines

Because Tavares and Foligno were hurt. Healthy he’s possibly a healthy scratch. But you believe a 900k player is as good as a 3.2 million winger who can PK so no point discussing this further

 

[Gallagbi]

Because Tavares and Foligno were hurt. Healthy he’s possibly a healthy scratch. But you believe a 900k player is as good as a 3.2 million winger who can PK so no point discussing this further

He actually started on the third line with both healthy.

And you seem to keep missing the point. I'm not saying Simmonds is an equal player to Kapanen. I've said the opposite actually. I'm saying Simmonds is a tougher, grittier player which is exactly what you said was needed. While ignoring the additional toughness in Foligno and Bogo as well.


I'm fine to say we need to upskill our team. I'd love to focus on players who can skate and pressure better throughout the lineup while being able to think well (Kaps issue). I'd also love to replace a guy like Thornton on our fourth line, even if it costs us grit.

But all of this seems to contradict the very basic claim you made to start this and that was Dubas not being able to add physical players. Oddly enough, he may have done that to his own detriment and the example your using in TBay may have even taken a step back on the physical front. While Goodrow and Coleman are definitely capable physically, they replaced Miller and Callahan who are at least as physical IMO

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Disagree on Kadri. I’ve been in his position being the only gritty guy on a soft team playing against a dirty team like Boston. You lose your shit

this year was bad luck he missed a shoulder check by 3 inches and got head. Kadri won’t be suspended in the playoffs again after this

When they have literally nobody else on the team with any spine and Babcock kept pumping Kadri as greasy...it got in his head that he had to stand up for the whole team. I blame Babcock and Bettman more than Kadri for the suspensions he had. The first was ridiculous and the second didn't cause that twerp debrusk to even miss a shift. We can't have only 1 guy with a spine and expect him to fight everyones battles...especially if he is important like Kadri was.

 

[Stephen]

When they have literally nobody else on the team with any spine and Babcock kept pumping Kadri as greasy...it got in his head that he had to stand up for the whole team. I blame Babcock and Bettman more than Kadri for the suspensions he had. The first was ridiculous and the second didn't cause that twerp debrusk to even miss a shift. We can't have only 1 guy with a spine and expect him to fight everyones battles...especially if he is important like Kadri was.

Kadri was gaming the system for the longest time with his sneaky non dives to draw penalties and I think there was a major reaction the other way against him... the thing that was ironic about the first suspension on Wingels is Wingels made the same hit on Marner just a split second prior. Anyway, water under the bridge now.

 

[Stonehands1990]

He actually started on the third line with both healthy.

And you seem to keep missing the point. I'm not saying Simmonds is an equal player to Kapanen. I've said the opposite actually. I'm saying Simmonds is a tougher, grittier player which is exactly what you said was needed. While ignoring the additional toughness in Foligno and Bogo as well.


I'm fine to say we need to upskill our team. I'd love to focus on players who can skate and pressure better throughout the lineup while being able to think well (Kaps issue). I'd also love to replace a guy like Thornton on our fourth line, even if it costs us grit.

But all of this seems to contradict the very basic claim you made to start this and that was Dubas not being able to add physical players. Oddly enough, he may have done that to his own detriment and the example your using in TBay may have even taken a step back on the physical front. While Goodrow and Coleman are definitely capable physically, they replaced Miller and Callahan who are at least as physical IMO

Tampa’s physical players:
Killorn, Coleman, Goodrow, Hedman, McD, Cernak, Savard, Maroon

Toronto can’t hold a candle to it but you think toughness was addressed. Train plays 9 minutes of 5 on 5 per game

 

[Gallagbi]

Tampa’s physical players:
Killorn, Coleman, Goodrow, Hedman, McD, Cernak, Savard, Maroon

Toronto can’t hold a candle to it but you think toughness was addressed. Train plays 9 minutes of 5 on 5 per game

So when you said this

...Brisebois would clearly be the exception. He at least understands that playoff hockey is physical and addressed his roster accordingly. Still waiting on Dubas…

What you actually meant was that after an embarrassing sweep, Brisebois added speed and tenacity to his group? Because Coleman and Goodrow were swapped in for Miller and Callahan. Seems like like wash for physical play, but they're definitely quicker and play more uptempo.

It can't be the bottom players like Maroon and Savared (or Bogo/Schenn added last year), you've clearly instructed me to ignore bottom line players.

You know what the funniest part of all this is? I want them to add Goodrow and Cizikas this summer. I just think it's odd to completely ignore the physical additions made by Dubas throughout the lineup, while praising Brisebois for his changes because they're "physical"

 

[ToneDog]

So when you said this

What you actually meant was that after an embarrassing sweep, Brisebois added speed and tenacity to his group? Because Coleman and Goodrow were swapped in for Miller and Callahan. Seems like like wash for physical play, but they're definitely quicker and play more uptempo.

It can't be the bottom players like Maroon and Savared (or Bogo/Schenn added last year), you've clearly instructed me to ignore bottom line players.

You know what the funniest part of all this is? I want them to add Goodrow and Cizikas this summer. I just think it's odd to completely ignore the physical additions made by Dubas throughout the lineup, while praising Brisebois for his changes because they're "physical"

Which physical additions are you referring to?

 

[Gallagbi]

Which physical additions are you referring to?

Foligno, Simmonds, Thornton, Bogo, Muzzin and Holl are the ones who jump to mind for me.

 

[Brobust]

He was a cap casualty. But he’s a perfect example of someone who developed a gritty side to their game and is now gone. I’d honestly rather have Kapanen, 8 million in cap space and the 4 1sts of a Marner offer sheet

By cap casualty, you mean they traded him so they could sign TJ Brodie?

Yeah, and I don't think many rational fans would have any sort of issue with that tradeoff. Especially when you consider the fact that Kapanen was invisible unless attacking off the rush and didn't really mesh with either Matthews or Tavares and their possession game.

 

[ToneDog]

Foligno, Simmonds, Thornton, Bogo, Muzzin and Holl are the ones who jump to mind for me.

Foligno was a good add but he was a bust due to injuries. Muzz was a great add. Bogo was a good add. The rest were MEH wrt grit. Too slow and too many miles on 97 and 24. Cliffy was a better add but he turned us down and it would have cost us a pick to resign him. There will be some good UFAs available this summer. Gotta sign at least one forward and hopefully Bogo.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

The entire third line needs to be re-worked. I could give a shit about Simmonds on the fourth line, they won’t play enough for him to have any impact, not that he can really do anything anymore. No we need guys who can play in the middle six and can add some jam and toughness. Not softies like Engvall and Mikheyev.

At the very least the third line needs some type of identity. It can’t be just “fast” and nothing else. If Nylander plays with Kerfoot on that line then at least it’s a line that’s not only fast but a legitimate threat to actually score. Still would need like a Coleman or Goodrow flanking them too though.