How Ryan Hardy fits with Kyle Dubas and the Maple Leafs management team

[gamer1035]

Can we stop with the skill and speed movement? Dubas is trying to revolutionize the nhl, and has failed like everyone else before him.

The refs like to keep the penalties even in the regular season, and in the playoffs they like to call none. Either you build a team to how the nhl officiates, or you lose. And here we are, losers.

Skill and speed would be great if the nhl called all penalties properly and unbiased, but that isn't the case.

 

[deprw]

I would love to sit down and interview the Leafs organization on so many items relating to their philosophies and particularly this high minded a stance on skills:

Can you comment on the relative inexperience of your entire program leadership and what you feel are areas you can improve on?

Would be nice to know. In the end you are evaluating 18yo kids that aren't matured by any means, so they are pretty raw outside of those 1st rounders, that are way ahead of their age group. Worst brat with terrible attitude can grow in a one year physically and mentally a lot. Then there are some youngsters that were junior stars, but stagnate. I think game is so fast nowadays, that ability to read the game in NHL speed is the key, but there is no way to measure it in junior hockey. You can be mediocre defensive player in juniors, but if you can process game same way in NHL speed you probably can succeed. If you don't it doesn't help if you are bonafide skill player as junior.

Some organizations excel in some areas like Nashville has always been good with defense. Detroits european scouting was legendary during 90s, but they haven't had that much success in recent history. I can bet we have made as much research as possible and benchmarking.

 

[Stephen]

Would be nice to know. In the end you are evaluating 18yo kids that aren't matured by any means, so they are pretty raw outside of those 1st rounders, that are way ahead of their age group. Worst brat with terrible attitude can grow in a one year physically and mentally a lot. Then there are some youngsters that were junior stars, but stagnate. I think game is so fast nowadays, that ability to read the game in NHL speed is the key, but there is no way to measure it in junior hockey. You can be mediocre defensive player in juniors, but if you can process game same way in NHL speed you probably can succeed. If you don't it doesn't help if you are bonafide skill player as junior.

Some organizations excel in some areas like Nashville has always been good with defense. Detroits european scouting was legendary during 90s, but they haven't had that much success in recent history. I can bet we have made as much research as possible and benchmarking.

Yeah that’s a great point about high IQ being difficult to scout for. I would imagine mid second rounders like Patrice Bergeron or Anthony Beauvillier were somewhat underwhelming if not intelligent at that level but completely translated their games in the NHL without missing a beat.

Then you have guys like Brad Boyes who were also hyped as being super intelligent but their game didn’t translate to being that kind of dominant two way player but more of an opportunistic crafty scorer.

Seems like the issue trying to scout for that would be processing speed. Maybe you’re making the right plays at lower, slower levels but does the brain stay ahead of the curve when there’s less time, more duress and more speed?

 

[Stephen]

Can we stop with the skill and speed movement? Dubas is trying to revolutionize the nhl, and has failed like everyone else before him.

The refs like to keep the penalties even in the regular season, and in the playoffs they like to call none. Either you build a team to how the nhl officiates, or you lose. And here we are, losers.

Skill and speed would be great if the nhl called all penalties properly and unbiased, but that isn't the case.

I have no problem with that emphasis but at some point you get sick of all the talking points. Honest to goodness just find us a Cirelli, Gourde, Beauvillier. Rinse and repeat. Then we’ll talk about what a bright staff you have.

 

[deprw]

Yeah that’s a great point about high IQ being difficult to scout for. I would imagine mid second rounders like Patrice Bergeron or Anthony Beauvillier were somewhat underwhelming if not intelligent at that level but completely translated their games in the NHL without missing a beat.

Then you have guys like Brad Boyes who were also hyped as being super intelligent but their game didn’t translate to being that kind of dominant two way player but more of an opportunistic crafty scorer.

Seems like the issue trying to scout for that would be processing speed. Maybe you’re making the right plays at lower, slower levels but does the brain stay ahead of the curve when there’s less time, more duress and more speed?

I think one interesting example of this is Markus Nutivaara. I didn't see anything special in him when he was playing in Finland. He was good Liiga defender, but there was nothing special in him. Then Columbus signed him and next season he played 66 games in the NHL. He was just basically that same player in best league in the world. His game translated straight away. I think you might be able to learn that and find ways to survive, but if you want to thrive you have to be able to read the game in full speed. How you measure that when you can't see those players in that environment until they are drafted.

I think that Patrice Bergeron example is good one and he also came straight away to NHL from juniors. Never looked back and he was 2nd rounder. If Bruins knew how they could see that potential in Bergeron, they would have done it again and again.

 

[capfit9]

Expect more guys either drafted or signed from the USHL

 

[Mess]

When you top heavy spend on player salaries like the Leafs, then having offsetting cheap ELC contracts for players you drafted and develop is mission critical to overall success.

 

[Stephen]

I think one interesting example of this is Markus Nutivaara. I didn't see anything special in him when he was playing in Finland. He was good Liiga defender, but there was nothing special in him. Then Columbus signed him and next season he played 66 games in the NHL. He was just basically that same player in best league in the world. His game translated straight away. I think you might be able to learn that and find ways to survive, but if you want to thrive you have to be able to read the game in full speed. How you measure that when you can't see those players in that environment until they are drafted.

I think that Patrice Bergeron example is good one and he also came straight away to NHL from juniors. Never looked back and he was 2nd rounder. If Bruins knew how they could see that potential in Bergeron, they would have done it again and again.

Reminds me of the Stu Percy development path which was sort of the opposite of the Markus Nutivaara example. Percy was just advertised as this smart basic defenseman who would thrive in the NHL structure vs the chaos of the AHL. I would have pictured a Nutivaara type player. And then nothing.

Or you look at a player like Adam Brooks. Intelligent guy in juniors putting up big numbers with hockey sense more than physical talent like pure finesse skills or elite skating. What would be the gap between him and a more credible 3rd liner?

 

[JT AM da real deal]

With Dubas mortgaging so much of Leafs future draft picks on the past team, then internal player development will be even more vital.

Leafs only have 6 of their 14 picks remaining from future 2021 & 2022 drafts, and very few high picks, already missing 4 of their 7 picks from both future years and the only residual value is a 3rd from Jack Campbell.

Don't make a big deal of 2021 picks as this is NHL's Ontario worst draft ever except at pick #1 ..however 2022 is deep and we need to pick up some great Ontario kids next year with our new GM

 

[Stephen]

Don't make a big deal of 2021 picks as this is NHL's Ontario worst draft ever except at pick #1 ..however 2022 is deep and we need to pick up some great Ontario kids next year with our new GM

Chaos is a ladder though, so an organization like the Leafs should have circled this draft as a way to scoop up some hidden gems by loading up on a few lower picks if they had the scouting insight.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Chaos is a ladder though, so an organization like the Leafs should have circled this draft as a way to scoop up some hidden gems by loading up on a few lower picks if they had the scouting insight.

This is a draft for getting lucky on some Euro kid .. da O has close to nothing .. we got a 2nd to pick a Euro and hope for best

 

[Ciao]

And we also need to be open to the idea of giving internal guys extended looks.

Lets see what Brooks can do and how much further he can develop at the NHL level. Lets get Joey Anderson into the lineup. If Robertson can have a good off-season training wise, he should be on the team this year. Liljegren should get more of a chance this year.

People sometimes forget that development happens at the NHL level.

Liljegren has been the Marlies top D for like 3 seasons now lmao. We need to get him onto the roster. If it’s because Bogosian doesn’t come back, or if he does we can move Holl, but I’d love to see Liljegren beside Muzzin.

Well said. Build from within. I couldn't agree more.

And don't always expect overnight success with prospects and young players. They don't improve in straight lines.

If you're a day-trader with an itchy trade finger, then you would probably fit in well with a lot of the young turks in Leafs' nation. If you're an experienced investor with a focus on the long-term investment horizon, then you would probably grow tired of the change-now chatter around here. Personally, I prefer the long-term horizon thing.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

a prospect pool that he mostly built with his drafts and trades?

a pool that ranks in the top 10 despite us being a top 5-8 team. Yea I'm fine with Dubas making decisions when it comes to the Marlies. Wasn't a fan of Gilman's job there but Dubas probably wasn't either and made a move.

Leafs don’t have a top 10 pool and will drop further after this draft with no first round pick.

 

[ToneDog]

Can we stop with the skill and speed movement? Dubas is trying to revolutionize the nhl, and has failed like everyone else before him.

The refs like to keep the penalties even in the regular season, and in the playoffs they like to call none. Either you build a team to how the nhl officiates, or you lose. And here we are, losers.

Skill and speed would be great if the nhl called all penalties properly and unbiased, but that isn't the case.

Yet we do not draw many penalties in the regular season or playoffs. Many like to blame the refs and I agree they miss many calls but most fan bases probably think the same applies to their team.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Can we stop with the skill and speed movement? Dubas is trying to revolutionize the nhl, and has failed like everyone else before him.

The refs like to keep the penalties even in the regular season, and in the playoffs they like to call none. Either you build a team to how the nhl officiates, or you lose. And here we are, losers.

Skill and speed would be great if the nhl called all penalties properly and unbiased, but that isn't the case.

We are not a fast NHL team .. we have a few guys who can fly in Mik, Rielly, Willy, Kerfoot and Dermy .. after those guys we are average to below average NHL speed .. but we do have a top tier skilled team

 

[barilko05]

Has he had prior success with another NHL organization? If not, he shouldn't be with the Leafs. Leafs should be in a position to hire the best of the best, not kids who still need training wheels.

Leafs have tried to go the route of hiring a President with no experience, a GM with no experience, and a Head Coach with no experience. Results so far have been a DISASTER. Seems odd to continue down the no experience path over and over again.

Jeez, come down off the ledge! Having 4 1st overall picks in 6 years and STILL struggling to make the playoffs every year in a WEAK division...that's a disaster .

Drafting in the top 8 for 8 straight years, with a #1 and 2 #2s, including one of the most highly touted American born players to come along in a generation, and still having one of the worst records in the league...that's a disaster!

Taking a marquee franchise from the bottom to near the top of the standings in five years is something special. Yes, our playoff failure is...infuriating, hard to take, and
incredibly disappointing. But lets leave words like disaster to fans of Edmonton and Buffalo, who REALLY know what it means.

 

[barilko05]

Reminds me of the Stu Percy development path which was sort of the opposite of the Markus Nutivaara example. Percy was just advertised as this smart basic defenseman who would thrive in the NHL structure vs the chaos of the AHL. I would have pictured a Nutivaara type player. And then nothing.

Or you look at a player like Adam Brooks. Intelligent guy in juniors putting up big numbers with hockey sense more than physical talent like pure finesse skills or elite skating. What would be the gap between him and a more credible 3rd liner?

I think Percy may have had been able to carve out an NHL career as solid, 3rd pair D, but injuries killed his development big time. I have hopes for Brooks but time may be running out on him as well.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Can we stop with the skill and speed movement? Dubas is trying to revolutionize the nhl, and has failed like everyone else before him.

The refs like to keep the penalties even in the regular season, and in the playoffs they like to call none. Either you build a team to how the nhl officiates, or you lose. And here we are, losers.

Skill and speed would be great if the nhl called all penalties properly and unbiased, but that isn't the case.

Can you show me some proof that the refs call less penalties in the playoffs? How much less is it than the regular season? Because the problem I'm seeing is that we're not scoring on the PPs we get, but a team like Boston was able to destroy us at special teams despite getting outscored at ES.

Even against Montreal, we outscored them at ES but got outscored 4-3 on special teams. We had 23 PPs to their 19, we had 5 minute PPs and almost full 2 minute long 5-on-3s. 3 goals for and 1 against on 23 PP opportunities isn't a reffing issue, we should have had 5+ PPGs instead of a net 3. The PP difference would have been even more in our favor if we didn't take 3 back to back delay of game penalties as well as Keefe's missed challenge and a too many men call.

Vegas, Colorado, and Tampa are also skill and speed teams, they just execute that gameplan better and more aggressively than we do. Dubas isn't revolutionizing anything, he's (poorly) doing what other successful teams have already been doing for several years.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

Jeez, come down off the ledge! Having 4 1st overall picks in 6 years and STILL struggling to make the playoffs every year in a WEAK division...that's a disaster .

Drafting in the top 8 for 8 straight years, with a #1 and 2 #2s, including one of the most highly touted American born players to come along in a generation, and still having one of the worst records in the league...that's a disaster!

Taking a marquee franchise from the bottom to near the top of the standings in five years is something special. Yes, our playoff failure is...infuriating, hard to take, and
incredibly disappointing. But lets leave words like disaster to fans of Edmonton and Buffalo, who REALLY know what it means.

I’d say a franchise that has lost in the opening round of the playoffs in 5 consecutive years and lost to a Zamboni Driver just over a year ago qualifies as being a disaster. And both of those teams have won a playoff series more recently than us.

 

[gamer1035]

Can you show me some proof that the refs call less penalties in the playoffs? How much less is it than the regular season? Because the problem I'm seeing is that we're not scoring on the PPs we get, but a team like Boston was able to destroy us at special teams despite getting outscored at ES.

Even against Montreal, we outscored them at ES but got outscored 4-3 on special teams. We had 23 PPs to their 19, we had 5 minute PPs and almost full 2 minute long 5-on-3s. 3 goals for and 1 against on 23 PP opportunities isn't a reffing issue, we should have had 5+ PPGs instead of a net 3. The PP difference would have been even more in our favor if we didn't take 3 back to back delay of game penalties as well as Keefe's missed challenge and a too many men call.

Vegas, Colorado, and Tampa are also skill and speed teams, they just execute that gameplan better and more aggressively than we do. Dubas isn't revolutionizing anything, he's (poorly) doing what other successful teams have already been doing for several years.

I'm unsure if I accidentally implied anything, but I just wanna state I am not a Dubas fan. The guy is an idiot and I want him fired. He's been attempting to build a team based on skill and speed and failed, from my POV.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I'm unsure if I accidentally implied anything, but I just wanna state I am not a Dubas fan. The guy is an idiot and I want him fired. He's been attempting to build a team based on skill and speed and failed, from my POV.

I just don't think this sentence actually means anything. What are examples of competitive teams not building based on skill and speed? I can really only think of the Islanders, and their only star-level player is one of the fastest most skilled players in the league. Marner turning into a ghost isn't a question of speed and skill, there's plenty of small skilled players that turn their game up in the playoffs. It's an issue specific to the players and their fragile mental states.

The way people are talking about the speed and skill thing makes it sound like you'd need to do a scorched earth teardown of the team just to have a chance at one day being competitive. The reality is that you can bring in a trader with an eye for "killer instinct" competitors or whatever and turn this into a contender with a few dramatic moves without fundamentally changing the strategic approach, just getting more intense competitors to execute it. Ironically enough this would have been the situation to bring a Burke type into.

 

[as Pure as Evil]

well when we stumble next year and miss the playoffs they will sell off some of the fat and recover some of those valuable picks everyone's clamoring about. think the lightning didn't mortgage everything they did. but they also had a couple losing seasons which they recouped by selling at the deadline.

then you guys can complain about missing the playoffs but we will have lots of picks and lottery odds

at this point the best thing for the fan base and the team is to outright stumble and miss the playoffs next season

 

[gamer1035]

I just don't think this sentence actually means anything. What are examples of competitive teams not building based on skill and speed? I can really only think of the Islanders, and their only star-level player is one of the fastest most skilled players in the league. Marner turning into a ghost isn't a question of speed and skill, there's plenty of small skilled players that turn their game up in the playoffs. It's an issue specific to the players and their fragile mental states.

The way people are talking about the speed and skill thing makes it sound like you'd need to do a scorched earth teardown of the team just to have a chance at one day being competitive. The reality is that you can bring in a trader with an eye for "killer instinct" competitors or whatever and turn this into a contender with a few dramatic moves without fundamentally changing the strategic approach, just getting more intense competitors to execute it. Ironically enough this would have been the situation to bring a Burke type into.

I think Burkie would've been perfect to bring in three years ago, right when the rfa contracts happened. Now we'll get lesser value, but may be able to salvage something.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Has he had prior success with another NHL organization? If not, he shouldn't be with the Leafs. Leafs should be in a position to hire the best of the best, not kids who still need training wheels.

Leafs have tried to go the route of hiring a President with no experience, a GM with no experience, and a Head Coach with no experience. Results so far have been a DISASTER. Seems odd to continue down the no experience path over and over again.

Yes he has with Boston.

 

[Leaf Fans]

Leafs don’t have a top 10 pool and will drop further after this draft with no first round pick.

Sure they do. They might drop with no first round pick, or possibly hit a later round home run.