Player Discussion How overpaid is Tavares

[Gary Nylund]

It's not just Buffalo and Detroit. The entire Atlantic division is far worse this season. Florida is about to lose again tonight.

Sigh....Skinner.

You really need to stop saying shit like this.

 

[meefer]

I would expect that Tavares' court case re: taxation rates, will have some impact on the discussions.

Tavares’ Tax Battle: The Crux of the Dispute

In July 2018, John Tavares signed a lucrative seven-year, $77 million contract with the Maple Leafs, which included a hefty $15.3 million signing bonus. Tavares’ legal team argues that due to his U.S. residency at the time of signing—stemming from his nine-year tenure with the New York Islanders—his bonus should be taxed at only 15% under the Canada-U.S. Tax Treaty. However, the CRA contends that the bonus is not truly a bonus but regular income, subject to a higher tax rate exceeding 50%, due to attached conditions such as repayment if Tavares retired early.
(from CPA4IT website)

15% to 50% would certainly dent the old savings account.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I would expect that Tavares' court case re: taxation rates, will have some impact on the discussions.

Tavares’ Tax Battle: The Crux of the Dispute

In July 2018, John Tavares signed a lucrative seven-year, $77 million contract with the Maple Leafs, which included a hefty $15.3 million signing bonus. Tavares’ legal team argues that due to his U.S. residency at the time of signing—stemming from his nine-year tenure with the New York Islanders—his bonus should be taxed at only 15% under the Canada-U.S. Tax Treaty. However, the CRA contends that the bonus is not truly a bonus but regular income, subject to a higher tax rate exceeding 50%, due to attached conditions such as repayment if Tavares retired early.
(from CPA4IT website)

15% to 50% would certainly dent the old savings account.

Yeah this is not good news. And at first blush, it seems that the CRA has a valid point.

 

[WillyC]

Yeah this is not good news. And at first blush, it seems that the CRA has a valid point.

How does the CRA determine a signing bonus paid while JT is living in New York… is not a signing bonus?

 

[Gary Nylund]

How does the CRA determine a signing bonus paid while JT is living in New York… is not a signing bonus?

This is what caught my eye - "attached conditions such as repayment if Tavares retired early." That doesn't sound like a bonus to me.

That's me though and to be clear, I'm not a tax expert by any means so my opinion of course means nothing.

 

[WillyC]

This is what caught my eye - "attached conditions such as repayment if Tavares retired early." That doesn't sound like a bonus to me.

That's me though and to be clear, I'm not a tax expert by any means so my opinion of course means nothing.

IMO, still a bonus… John, we’ll give you a 15 million dollar bonus if you move back to Canada next season and sign a 7 year deal with Toronto.

If you don’t fulfill the whole 7 years and retire early… ya gotta pay back the bonus we gave you in New York.

The CRA is grasping like the greedy pricks they are.

 

[Gary Nylund]

IMO, still a bonus… John, we’ll give you a 15 million dollar bonus if you move back to Canada next season and sign a 7 year deal with Toronto.

If you don’t fulfill the whole 7 years and retire early… ya gotta pay back the bonus we gave you in New York.

The CRA is grasping like the greedy pricks they are.

I hope you're right, but it seems fishy to me. I believe it was announced as a signing bonus, he can't "unsign" so if they can ask for the money back, that indicates that it wasn't a signing bonus and if they're calling the bonus something that it isn't, that makes it seem like they're trying to get away with something.

 

[Zybalto]

Tavares now 29 goals from 500 and 32 points from 1100.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Insider Trading: Anthony Stolarz injury could open door to Matt Murray’s NHL return | TSN

Gino Reda joins TSN Hockey Insiders Chris Johnston and Pierre LeBrun to discuss the Toronto Maple Leafs’ goaltending situation, John Tavares' contract negotiations, the Buffalo Sabres’ tailspin and more on Insider Trading.

www.tsn.ca

Pierre LeBrun: Another piece of business for the Maple Leafs, of course, is the ongoing dialogue between the Leafs and their former captain John Tavares, who is a pending unrestricted free agent on July 1.

I don’t think anything is imminent at this point. I think part of that ongoing dialogue is that both sides want to see where the salary cap is headed.

We were at the Board of Governors meetings last week with Gino and we know there’s two possibilities. [The cap will rise to] $92.5 million next year or it will rise to a higher cap, and every dime counts for the Maple Leafs.

Contract comparables that I know have been talked about are [Ottawa Senators forward] Claude Giroux, who has a three-year, $19.5 million deal that he signed in July of 2022 and [Los Angeles Kings captain] Anze Kopitar, who signed a two-year extension at $7 million a year.

Those are contracts that I think are in the ballpark of what Tavares and the Leafs are talking about.

However, one contract that I don’t think Tavares’ camp has brought up was Steven Stamkos at four years, $8 million a year. I think that Tavares aims to be lower than that if this gets done with Toronto at some point.

They want to be fair and remain a Maple Leaf so both sides, mutually, would like to get something done at some point before July 1.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

Regular season hockey is NOT playoff hockey .. guys unfortunately get paid on regular season stats .. JT can't keep up to playoff hockey .. he has got a bit faster this year but this is pre XMS hockey .. I'd wait to see how he does at end of season hockey .. in fact I'd wait til playoffs are over before getting serious about a contract .. my gut says he will look very slow again as we get into March as game pace picks up .. anything over $3M per longer term and I would pass .. even if it means going longer term .. sure you can move him to LW to extend his term

Then be one more Corey Perry hit away from selling plastic video vibrating amulets on public domain. Sheesh

A re branded Bobble head to Mock Magic Mitch. Big ZEUSY don't like bad medicine. In fact me tinks many men are jealous of our stalwart selke candidate. Perhaps even this Dog I been chilling with is smarter than. The. Average Hot taker reverse betting against the Leafs. I'm just a bongo Bonk Rocket strain of nonsense to waste my time on that one. I been smoking cookie from Cali based on this one guys projections alone. But no one can tell what color he is. They said he was Alien to concept.

He was not a good cap cap a ti ng to Bonk

I bought a $40 box of cereal bulk before but Wu Tang is for the Children and we suggest you check the OR for financial sanity and certification. That he was stacking ivory to the Liberals. Oh well. Now we have a nation of Trent's wanting helping with Euros. Probably me. Just an immigrant. High as shit on Kush and off to the land of Nod to dream about a better Dubas era.

 

[therealkoho]

IMO, still a bonus… John, we’ll give you a 15 million dollar bonus if you move back to Canada next season and sign a 7 year deal with Toronto.

If you don’t fulfill the whole 7 years and retire early… ya gotta pay back the bonus we gave you in New York.

The CRA is grasping like the greedy pricks they are.

The CRA is neither greedy, nor mean or benevolent. They are a government entity operating within a set of policies and specific rules. In almost every guide or set of laws there can be grey areas JT is caught in one of those currently.

As a retired CRA collections officer, I can tell you greed is something that doesnt drive tax collection. I cannot tell you how many times I heard something to the effect of "c'mon just this once, who's going to know." Well for starters at the very least two of us, one of which, me, could be fired and charged with abetting tax evasion by counsel if I went along with that kind of scheme!

I'm sure that John's legal counsel may have thought he found a loop hole all those years ago in his interpretation of how the law is written, and now how JT finds himself in this mess.

If the court finds that he did evade, JT would have to pay the shortfall, the interest accrued and possibly a fine. Not to mention his attorneys fees and court costs.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Just because you call it a bonus doesn't mean it actually is.

A bonus is supposed to be a small incentive over and above his regular earnings. But virtually his entire annual salary is comprised of his signing bonus. All they did was switch the labels at the top of the columns and said most of it was tax free now.

Calling myself the most handsome man in the world doesn't make it true either.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

The CRA is neither greedy, nor mean or benevolent. They are a government entity operating within a set of policies and specific rules. In almost every guide or set of laws there can be grey areas JT is caught in one of those currently.

As a retired CRA collections officer, I can tell you greed is something that doesnt drive tax collection. I cannot tell you how many times I heard something to the effect of "c'mon just this once, who's going to know." Well for starters at the very least two of us, one of which, me, could be fired and charged with abetting tax evasion by counsel if I went along with that kind of scheme!

I'm sure that John's legal counsel may have thought he found a loop hole all those years ago in his interpretation of how the law is written, and now how JT finds himself in this mess.

If the court finds that he did evade, JT would have to pay the shortfall, the interest accrued and possibly a fine. Not to mention his attorneys fees and court costs.

This issue is much bigger than JT .. several of KPMG's athlete customers will be affected by this decision .. these tax driven plans are big business for a couple large accounting firms who have these practice areas .. it will also affect future athletes coming to our city .. so this decision also affects our recruitment ability in Toronto to field top end teams .. da CRA is taking on da large accounting titans by going after JT on his tax plan .. anywho this will be a big decision which will have long term affects for many athletes none of which are conducive to Toronto recruitment .. for JT it will have zero affect on him personally as he has also made ten of millions off his real estate profits quite a bit came from having access to da CRA bonus in question .. where does this end? .. we will see

 

[therealkoho]

This issue is much bigger than JT .. several of KPMG's athlete customers will be affected by this decision .. these tax driven plans are big business for a couple large accounting firms who have these practice areas .. it will also affect future athletes coming to our city .. so this decision also affects our recruitment ability in Toronto to field top end teams .. da CRA is taking on da large accounting titans by going after JT on his tax plan .. anywho this will be a big decision which will have long term affects for many athletes none of which are conducive to Toronto recruitment .. for JT it will have zero affect on him personally as he has also made ten of millions off his real estate profits quite a bit came from having access to da CRA bonus in question .. where does this end? .. we will see

The one thing you're missing here, is the athletes will still come and their advocates will have to be a lot sharper when filing.

Ignorance is no defence. The CRA didn't suddenly say hey look we can get this guy or that guy, they'll get me too if I don't declare income. It's the way it works.

Why would it effect recruitment. It's simple here are the rules, follow them and there's no problem.

 

[Confucius]

I would expect that Tavares' court case re: taxation rates, will have some impact on the discussions.

Tavares’ Tax Battle: The Crux of the Dispute

In July 2018, John Tavares signed a lucrative seven-year, $77 million contract with the Maple Leafs, which included a hefty $15.3 million signing bonus. Tavares’ legal team argues that due to his U.S. residency at the time of signing—stemming from his nine-year tenure with the New York Islanders—his bonus should be taxed at only 15% under the Canada-U.S. Tax Treaty. However, the CRA contends that the bonus is not truly a bonus but regular income, subject to a higher tax rate exceeding 50%, due to attached conditions such as repayment if Tavares retired early.
(from CPA4IT website)

15% to 50% would certainly dent the old savings account.

This tax situation is what I don’t understand. If JT signed the same deal with the Panthers or lightning, how much would he owe? Sure there is no state tax in Florida but there still is federal tax. The federal tax in Florida is higher than the federal tax in Ontario. Whether JT is wrong or correct would he have thought he would only pay 15% if he signed in Florida? The truly rich do have different rules.

 

[WillyC]

We’ll just have to see how this plays out in court… yes, I understand the CRA is a government entity… however, IMO, the government is a failure at every level and I doubt the CRA is the one entity who gets everything correct.

I honestly cannot think of anything the government does well.

 

[Martin Skoula]

We’ll just have to see how this plays out in court… yes, I understand the CRA is a government entity… however, IMO, the government is a failure at every level and I doubt the CRA is the one entity who gets everything correct.

I honestly cannot think of anything the government does well.

The government is the biggest employer in the country. Think of all the poor accountants, lawyers, analysts, and all the HR and support staff that would be out of a job if the tax code was simplified. Frankly it should be made several times more complex and constantly changing, and the penalties for not correctly guessing how much you owe should be significantly higher.

 

[BraveCanadian]

We’ll just have to see how this plays out in court… yes, I understand the CRA is a government entity… however, IMO, the government is a failure at every level and I doubt the CRA is the one entity who gets everything correct.

I honestly cannot think of anything the government does well.

lol

Pay your taxes JT, you’ll still be rich it’s ok I promise

 

[Ignatius Reilly]

It’s hard to imagine that Tavares and Marner not signing before the season ends. Put all the distractions behind them so everyone can focus on the playoffs

Everyone always talks about how guys elevated their games in a contract year.

So....... why would we sign these two CRITICAL guys before the playoffs?

Keep that carrot dangling in front of them while there's still hockey to be played.

Are guys really so distracted they can't focus for ~20 minutes of ice time every other day?

I think he'll sign at a discount (given this year's performance) at about half his current contract - say $5.5 million. And no matter what, he'll retire a Leaf in 3-4 years.

 

[ACC1224]

Everyone always talks about how guys elevated their games in a contract year.

So....... why would we sign these two CRITICAL guys before the playoffs?

Keep that carrot dangling in front of them while there's still hockey to be played.

Are guys really so distracted they can't focus for ~20 minutes of ice time every other day?

I think he'll sign at a discount (given this year's performance) at about half his current contract - say $5.5 million. And no matter what, he'll retire a Leaf in 3-4 years.

There will be enough pressure on them as it is without piling a contract worry on top.
If you only want to retain a player based on how they play during a contract year whats the expectation going to be going forward when they don’t have that contract to play for?

 

[Maple Leaf]

Could tavares be the next stamkos
Are the leafs ready to

 

[indigobuffalo]

We’ll just have to see how this plays out in court… yes, I understand the CRA is a government entity… however, IMO, the government is a failure at every level and I doubt the CRA is the one entity who gets everything correct.

I honestly cannot think of anything the government does well.

I think that logic transcends government and honestly applies to everything. Everything is a failure at every level.

 

[indigobuffalo]

Could tavares be the next stamkos
Are the leafs ready to

The Lightning didn’t let Stamkos walk for no reason. And the reason certainly wasn’t “brave” or “admirable”.

They let him go because part of the job of being a GM is setting a reputation and BriseBois wanted to set an example for the everyone else that he won’t overpay for anyone, even if that someone is a franchise legacy player.

Which is straight up overkill. It won’t have the intended effect because it’s so overdone it shows Brisebois doesn’t actually know what he’s doing and is a boy playing a man’s game.

Similar to Dubas. He held a firm line negotiating with Nylander and went to the absolute last possible second only to get literally nothing and sign Nylander to exactly what the original offer was.

Thing is, there’s no GM with a perfect record. Even the ones who are “great” at negotiating contracts, like Lou Lamoriello, have other areas of shortfall, like overpaying veterans (in Lou’s case).

 

[WillyC]

IMO, the difference between Tavares and Stamkos… JT’s desire to stay in Toronto is greater than money.

 

[WillyC]

15 goals and 16 assists for 31 points in 32 games.

That cliff some folks keep chirping about… doesn’t seem to be panning out.

He’s literally been at the same consistent pace since he entered the NHL in 2009.